TM Hi-toe = Extremely Unforgiving, but also...

[North Butte]

The original poster's description of his problems with Hi-Toe could almost describe my experience with PM Grind a couple years back.

 

I passed on the Hi-Toe because the sole did not look friendly to me. But I did try and end up loving the 60-degree CBX Full Face. The most "forgiving" wedge ever, by a large margin, in terms of missing the sweet spot and/or getting a little steep or flippy with my swing.

 

And from of deep rough where I want to open the face up without worrying about the club submarining the ball and making glancing contact? No problem. 

[Vater]

On 11/8/2019 at 10:47 AM, manima1 said:

So it’s only been a couple months since the Hi-Toe went in the bag, but this club has me completely perplexed.

 

On one hand, this is thing is like cheating from the bunker. I’ve never left a shot in the bunker or thinned one since it’s gone in the bag. That is truly amazing, since I’m NOT a great bunker play by any stretch. It’s almost automatic in the bunker – even from a variety of sand conditions – firm, soft, wet… it handles them all with ease. Additionally, the flop/rescue shot ability can’t be stressed enough- I executed a 25y flop with a bush 2’ in front of the ball and was truly sold on the value of the higher toe for that type of shot right there.

 

On the other hand, this thing is seems to be extremely inconsistent on short pitches and chips. If you don’t strike it perfectly you are punished severely. All shots come out with PLENTY of spin, but trajectory and distance control are awful. Short shots that used to be routine with my SM5 60.08M, are now a challenge. I’m finding myself grabbing the 54.10S in spots where the 60 would work better, just because it’s simply more reliable.

 

However, the value of the bunker and rescue shots is undeniable. There are some rounds where I can never see a bunker and others where I’m living there, so I do need a reliable club from there. Just not sure if that value outweighs the downsides of the club elsewhere.

 

Anyone else find anything similar? With time, has anyone “learned” how to use this club on typical short chips/pitches and developed some consistency? Or is this club just unforgiving on those shots by design?

 

Yes, my 60* hi-toe is sweet out of bunkers. And I grab the 54* for chipping. But I've found my 60* to be GREAT at super short pitch/chip/flop shots. I open it way up and take advantage of the grooves going up the whole face. I picture slicing a knife under something on a cutting board and I get a shot that's like putting english on a billiard ball.

[Vinsanity23]

Most Taylormade wedges seem to play with less bounce than described so maybe check out the HB version? I use a Hi-Toe SB LW and love it, but when i purchased it I also purchased the MG1 SW in HB because I had been advised about the bounce by the store fitters. I try to keep that in mind as much as possible when making pitch shots or chips. Although, I will be the first to admit I LOVE a good bump and run with an iron (anywhere from 8-pw depending on how much roll out I want) - it just seems to entirely eliminate that occasional bladed or chunked chip from a tight lie that I loathe.

Edited September 24, 2020 by vstensrud23

[North Butte]

6 minutes ago, vstensrud23 said:

Most Taylormade wedges seem to play with less bounce than described so maybe check out the HB version? I use a Hi-Toe SB LW and love it, but when i purchased it I also purchased the MG1 SW in HB because I had been advised about the bounce by the store fitters. I try to keep that in mind as much as possible when making pitch shots or chips. Although, I will be the first to admit I LOVE a good bump and run with an iron (anywhere from 8-pw depending on how much roll out I want) - it just seems to entirely eliminate that occasional bladed or chunked chip from a tight lie that I loathe.

The only thing I hate worse than a bladed or chunked 30-yard pitch shot with a wedge is a blade or chunked attempt at a 30-yard bump and run with an 8-iron. Nothing like trying to play the smart shot and then choking like a dog on it. 

[Vinsanity23]

12 minutes ago, North Butte said:

The only thing I hate worse than a bladed or chunked 30-yard pitch shot with a wedge is a blade or chunked attempt at a 30-yard bump and run with an 8-iron. Nothing like trying to play the smart shot and then choking like a dog on it. 

Definitely man! Same thing as swallowing your ego and laying up with an iron from the tee and putting it in the rough anyway. From that range I would definitely hit a wedge as well. I should have been more specific, I prefer the bump and run with an iron around the green (inside 10 yards) from fairway and long fringe lies. But hey, we all have to go with the shot that we're comfortable in, if you aren't totally sold going into the shot, it can't go right.

[North Butte]

15 minutes ago, vstensrud23 said:

Definitely man! Same thing as swallowing your ego and laying up with an iron from the tee and putting it in the rough anyway. From that range I would definitely hit a wedge as well. I should have been more specific, I prefer the bump and run with an iron around the green (inside 10 yards) from fairway and long fringe lies. But hey, we all have to go with the shot that we're comfortable in, if you aren't totally sold going into the shot, it can't go right.

I told one of the guys I play with just the other day, next time you see me reach for an iron on a Par 4 or Par 5 tee please give me a swift kick in the shins. I only drive the ball a little over 200 yards. And I hit my irons crooked as hogan's goat. But sometimes it's like, "Just take a 5-iron and put it in the short grass" pops in my head. Yeah, right!

[jah7838]

I have personally noticed the same thing with my Hi Toe wedge.  I have the 56* bent weak to 58* for my lob wedge.  It's great around the greens and out of the sand.  I also like it on shorter shots into the green, but once I start getting to 60-80 yard shots, it's not very consistent.  It'll come out great some shots, and then other times it'll come out on the correct trajectory and to the right a bit.  I'll also get a lot of really low shots from the fairway as well.  

 

I just ordered some mid Zipcore wedges to replace the Hi Toe.  I had the RTX4 before and really liked it, so I don't think it'll take long to adjust to the new Zipcore wedges.  I didn't have the issues that I'm having with the Hi Toe with my previous RTX4 wedge.  I ordered 2 56* mid bent weak to 58* and a 52* bent to 53*.  1 of the 56* and the 52* will be in the closet until the wedges wear on on my RTX4 52* that still has plenty of life in the grooves, and the other new 56*. 

[mizunotpz]

Personally I dont get why people use more than a 54 or 56 on shots longer than 50 yards. So much easier to control distance with a lower flight. Too much loft and the shot loses accuracy. Hit 20 shots with a 54 and 20 with a 58 or 60 and I can guarantee most will be more successful with the 54. But yes, I know there are a few that practise a lot that can pull it off but most cant.

[Juice1121]

36 minutes ago, mizunotpz said:

Personally I dont get why people use more than a 54 or 56 on shots longer than 50 yards. So much easier to control distance with a lower flight. Too much loft and the shot loses accuracy. Hit 20 shots with a 54 and 20 with a 58 or 60 and I can guarantee most will be more successful with the 54. But yes, I know there are a few that practise a lot that can pull it off but most cant.

You can't always throw shots into the green on a low trajectory. When you have greens running fast you need the combination of loft and spin to hold them. 

[mizunotpz]

7 minutes ago, Juice1121 said:

You can't always throw shots into the green on a low trajectory. When you have greens running fast you need the combination of loft and spin to hold them. 

Yes thats true, but I dont know about you but my 56 goes plenty high on a 60-80 yard shot. All about what loft Im presenting.

[Juice1121]

Just now, mizunotpz said:

Yes thats true, but I dont know about you but my 56 goes plenty high on a 60-80 yard shot. All about what loft Im presenting.

That makes some more sense... but a lot of players, myself included, bag 46, 52, 58. So, a 54 and 56 aren't options. 

[mizunotpz]

2 minutes ago, Juice1121 said:

That makes some more sense... but a lot of players, myself included, bag 46, 52, 58. So, a 54 and 56 aren't options. 

Thats true. Depends on what kind of shot you hit. But with a 52 or 50 you can really compress and get loads of spin as well. Not often I reach for my 58 to be honest if Im more than 60 yards out. But we are all different and totally respect that. Just see a lot of players on my home course using their 60 in situations I wouldnt and Ive played the game for a long time and consider my short game to be my strongest part of my game.

[Juice1121]

9 minutes ago, mizunotpz said:

Thats true. Depends on what kind of shot you hit. But with a 52 or 50 you can really compress and get loads of spin as well. Not often I reach for my 58 to be honest if Im more than 60 yards out. But we are all different and totally respect that. Just see a lot of players on my home course using their 60 in situations I wouldnt and Ive played the game for a long time and consider my short game to be my strongest part of my game. 

I would say for the general/average am player they would be better off using the lower lofted club... honestly that is the case all around the green, not just on full shots. I would venture to say that if you have a 15 or higher handicap you would probably be better off not even carrying a lob wedge at all. 

 

BTW: Howay The Lads

Edited September 24, 2020 by Juice1121
addition

[mizunotpz]

3 minutes ago, Juice1121 said:

I would say for the general/average am player they would be better off using the lower lofted club... honestly that is the case all around the green, not just on full shots. I would venture to say that if you have a 15 or higher handicap you would probably be better off not even carrying a lob wedge at all. 

Amen to that. 56 should be enough for those over 15 so they can get out of a bunker.

[1Mordrid1]

On 9/23/2020 at 1:59 PM, mizunotpz said:

What sole grind do you use in the Glide 3.0 56? The Eye2?

I would have preferred the TS grind but since it was not available on the 56° I went with the SS grind trying to get away from the "high toe" design(because with the PM Grind I found myself trying the difficult shots even when they were not necessary). But after a couple of months I switched to the Eye2 because I just get better results with less bounce. My 60° is the TS grind and I love it.

[vtpachyderm]

I have the same experience as the OP with my bigfoot at 58 deg. Brilliant out of the sand, and short soft shots near the green, but anything more than 40 yards, it's my 50 and 56 Nike Square Sole engages that come in play. Where I'm at, very rarely do we have hard fast greens, so 56 is plenty enough for almost all shots, but the 58 gives me a lot more options around the greens than a 60 would i.e. I'm not worried about the 2 deg gap, and make more use of the bounce and sole profile. Actually swapped my Nike 58 toe sweep for the big foot and couldn't be happier.

[bogeypro]

I hate to break out to you... It's the Indian, not the arrow.  

 

My hi toes have been fantastic.  I've gone with the 50, 54, and 58 now.  Yardages are consistent and the 58 is great from thick rough and bunkers.  The feel and sound are "thumpy" and solid.  

 

I don't think they spin as much as others on the market; however, it isn't so much that they won't perform.  

[North Butte]

25 minutes ago, bogeypro said:

I hate to break out to you... It's the Indian, not the arrow.  

 

My hi toes have been fantastic.  I've gone with the 50, 54, and 58 now.  Yardages are consistent and the 58 is great from thick rough and bunkers.  The feel and sound are "thumpy" and solid.  

 

I don't think they spin as much as others on the market; however, it isn't so much that they won't perform.  

This particular "Indian" has never found a Taylormade "arrow" that works well at all for my wedge game. I think TM and I are just in different tribes.

 

P.S. The majority of drivers and fairway woods that have worked well for me over the years have been Taylormade, as it turns out.

[doubledub]

I used to game the Hi Toe 64 and sometimes the 58 also. The low checker with the 64 was an awesome shot but that atv grind just has to much bounce for the bunkers at my home course. I'm in a Vokey 62 M grind now and its more versatile and $ out of bunkers but it doesn't hit the low spinner quite as well. I do think the Hi Toe's work better off fairway/tight lies the steeper you are, I tried the 52 and it was ok but distance control was an issue on anything over 75%. 

[manima1]

1 hour ago, bogeypro said:

I hate to break out to you... It's the Indian, not the arrow.  

 

My hi toes have been fantastic.  I've gone with the 50, 54, and 58 now.  Yardages are consistent and the 58 is great from thick rough and bunkers.  The feel and sound are "thumpy" and solid.  

 

I don't think they spin as much as others on the market; however, it isn't so much that they won't perform.  

You're spot on  - it's the Indian.  But this Indian with a Vokey D-grind arrow seems to be much more consistent than the Hi-Toe arrow ever was.

 

Glad it's working great for you @bogeypro , you must be a much better wedge player than I am - at least with the Hi-Toe

[ZA206]

I love my Hi-Toes! Best wedges I’ve ever played. I need to order a new 55 degree one, mines worn out from 18 months of play!

[PGizzle]

I have the same problem with my PM grind right now, mostly cause I don't practice enough lately and my touch is hit or miss. But the 60 PM stay in the bag unless I'm in the bunker and I just manipulate the face of my 56. It is easier and more consistent for me so I think that in itself gives me confidence. As opposed to trying a 20 yard pitch with my 60 its in my head that I will mess up the shot so I usually do.

[JDennis]

I had a tour issue raw face Hi Toe 60 in the bag. The club is a love hate thing. I have made some great shots and the Hi Toe is stupid good out of the sand. Like amazing out of the sand. To me, the club was my worst nightmare trying to open it up and make shots. If I just made normal chips it was fantastic. 

[setter02]

Likely gave up on a 58* too soon, but it just wasn't performing well for me from the fairway on shorter shots.  I would come up way short vs. all my other 58's.  Worked very well from greenside rough, but the course I mainly play isn't long, so end up with way too many sub 80y shots to not be able to trust that spot in the bag.

[OhYeahPlayer]

I relate to a lot of this with my PM Grind 19 60 degree. It's been delightful out of the bunker and specialty stuff around the greens, but I haven't been too consistent with it with everything else. Will likely be moving on soon and going to Ping Glides in 54 and 58 but may keep the 60 around as a specialty club for certain courses. 

[bullie76]

On 11/8/2019 at 10:03 AM, Z1ggy16 said:

I mean... I've become a better chipper from simply just grabbing less loft, period. Make a shorter BS and accelerate as normal.... The only time this becomes a problem is in late summer or early fall when the greens really start to dry out and the roll a little more.

 

 

 

 

Same here. I chip primarily with a 52* but will use a pw when needing more run out on longer shots. The only time I use a 58* is when I need loft for the shot. My chipping has improved dramatically over the last few several months. I bought one of these hi-toe clubs(56*) and didn't care for it. 

Edited October 30, 2020 by bullie76

[mootrail]

I've bagged the PM Grinds in 56°, 58° and 60° along with a 60° Hi-Toe.  Although I could be lights out with the 60, the 58 is the magic club for performance and all around consistency.  Never got along the 56° / 13°, but after turning it down to 53° / 10° (same bounce as the 58 & 60) it's apparent why; the grind works much better at 10°.

 

The Hi-Toe felt too light and I preferred the PM sole grind.  When it comes to full shots, chips and pitches I'd prefer a standard wedge shape, but I'll gladly sacrifice that for the amazing touch and versatility these clubs have around the green.

 

Bottomline, if someone wanted to hand me a new standard shape RTX or JAWs etc. for my 53 i'd do it in a heartbeat, but I wouldn't do for the 58.

[RobYakes]

Have been through the same issues the OP and others have experienced with Hi-Toe and PM Grind. When I got back into golf some years back I ordered the original PM Grinds in 56* and 60* with my 50* gap wedge that matched my JPX 900 HM set. Couldn't hit full shots with the PMs to save my life, but the PMs were deadly on flops and in the bunkers. Fast forward through a couple sets and I now play only the Hi-Toe in my lob wedge. It's my bunker and flop wedge specifically, but have recently been dialing it in as a full shot club from 60ish yards. The rest of my wedge work is normally handled by my go-to 54* for chips and pitches from around the green up to 80ish yards. But have also been lofting down on longer bump-and-run chips and pitches with my 50* gap wedge (not a huge fan of using PW or higher irons for these as the injected heads or even CB-irons sometimes lend to "hotter" chips and pitches that can't be planned for). Happy to have broadened my use of my Hi-Toe, but definitely feel more comfortable using regular-shaped wedges on full shots as I had a hard time closing the face of Hi-Toe and PM heads on full shots. Will say that the Hi-Toe (in terms of "Eye2"-like wedge heads) was the easiest to flight down shots, likely due to the extra weight higher in the face.  

[Sub_Roc]

I was going to give up on the Glide 3.0 Eye2 58* for all of the same reasons everyone has mentioned, until I really took a look at the sole grind to study the turf interaction.  There's several different distinct features built into the grind that can work for or against you.  On firmer and thicker lies, it seems to be highly dependent on where in your stance you place the ball, any added shaft lean angles (fore/aft, upright/flat), angle of strike, and square/open face/sole angle at turf contact.

It's a lot to think about, but it has helped me become more aware of how I need to pull off a particular shot depending on the lie conditions.  It takes a bit of practice to get a good feel for it and I'm still learning its benefits, but having lots of fun discovering great shots.

I just ordered a matching Glide 3.0 with the same shaft and grip (feel consistency), but in the Wide Sole 54* version turned down to 53*.  This will be my go to club for most full to partial shots within 100 yards, and mid-range pitches/chips.  I feel that the more uniform shape of the cambered Wide Sole (still has a small amount of gradual heel relief shaped into the stock grind) won't require all of the preshot planning for the non-specialty shots and will be great for reduced tendency to chunk in softer conditions. 

Special mention are Nike Engage wedges. I like the 56, 58, 60 in the Toe Sweep.  Feel and performance is very good.  You can also touch up the sole grind to match your liking. 

Edited November 11, 2020 by simonizer

[Mookieb10]

On 11/9/2019 at 10:55 AM, rgk5 said:

I had a PM 60* and the Hi Toe 58*. For short pitches both were good. On full shots, they always wanted to go left. Gone.

I am the proud owner of tons of different wedges and a very rough short game. I have a set of hi toes, 50, 54, 58 and a big foot 60... they all tend to yank a bit to the left.