Practice during round

[robinthehood]

Playing a stableford qualifier last week when guy who’s card I’m marking loses his ball from his tee shot on 10th. Evidently, he can’t be bothered going back so he plays another into the green just for interest and putts out. I had assumed that he had found his ball, I was marking his card and when asked to clarify his score on the hole he explained “ no score just played one down”. On the next hole he scores a 5 and after this I consult my players guide to the rules and advise him it’s a 2 shot penalty and that he has, in fact scored a seven on that hole.

 

When we got in I was called for all sorts by our roll up. What would you have done?

[Halebopp]

The player wasn't practicing, no penalties. I couldn't find an Interpretation to confirm playing out the hole isn't restricted to playing by the Rules of Golf but the old Decision 7-2/1.7 tells us so (no need to play by the rules) and the Mapping Chart confirms the outcome of the Decision didn't change for this year.

 

5.5 Practising During Round or While Play Is Stopped

 

a No Practice Strokes While Playing Hole

 

While playing a hole, a player must not make a practice stroke at any ball on or off the course.

 

**These are not practice strokes:**

 

- A practice swing made with no intent to strike a ball.

- Hitting a ball back to a practice area or to another player, when done solely as a courtesy.

**- Strokes made by a player in playing out a hole whose result has been decided.**

 

[Sawgrass]

I’m not sure if it’s worth debate, but IMO the player illegally substituted a ball and played from the wrong place/serious breach, earning zero points on that hole and not impacting subsequent holes.

[robinthehood]

See rule 5.5 a

 

Penalty for Breach of Rule 5.5: General Penalty.

If the breach happens between two holes, the penalty applies to the next hole.

 

[LeoLeo99]

> @Sawgrass said:

> I’m not sure if it’s worth debate, but IMO the player illegally substituted a ball and played from the wrong place/serious breach, earning zero points on that hole and not impacting subsequent holes.

 

Yeah, I don't get it. That hole was an x. Shouldn't impact subsequent holes.

[HitEmTrue]

I’ll bet a bag of donuts and a cooked goose that either @Halebopp or @Sawgrass is correct, and no penalty is applied to the following hole.

[Halebopp]

> @robinthehood said:

> See rule 5.5 a

>

> Penalty for Breach of Rule 5.5: General Penalty.

> If the breach happens between two holes, the penalty applies to the next hole.

>

 

You mean Rule 5.5b for practice in between two holes but this situation is covered in Rule 5.5a, which I've already pasted above and bolded the essential bits.

 

If you don't believe me, late Mr. Rhodes has the essential part of the old Decision here:

 

http://www.barryrhodes.com/2015/09/september-miscellany.html

 

And you can find the Mapping Chart to check what happened to the Decision 7-2/1.7 in 2019 here, which tells us it didn't change and is now covered by Rule 5.5a (pasted above):

 

http://www.walkercup.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2019/rules/Mapping%20Summary%20Chart%20-%20FINAL%20-%20revised%208.16.2019.pdf

[KevCarter]

> @Halebopp said:

> > @robinthehood said:

> > See rule 5.5 a

> >

> > Penalty for Breach of Rule 5.5: General Penalty.

> > If the breach happens between two holes, the penalty applies to the next hole.

> >

>

> You mean Rule 5.5b for practice in between two holes but this situation is covered in Rule 5.5a, which I've already pasted above and bolded the essential bits.

>

> If you don't believe me, the late Mr. Rhodes has the old Decision here:

>

> http://www.barryrhodes.com/2015/09/september-miscellany.html

>

> And you can find the Mapping Chart to check what happened to the Decision 7-2/1.7 in 2019 here, which tells us it didn't change and is now covered by Rule 5.5a (pasted above):

>

> http://www.walkercup.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2019/rules/Mapping%20Summary%20Chart%20-%20FINAL%20-%20revised%208.16.2019.pdf

 

Another gotcha from just looking at the Players Edition rather than the Full Rules. Your answer is clear in the Full Rules, and not covered in the Players Edition...

[Halebopp]

> @KevCarter said:

> > @Halebopp said:

> > > @robinthehood said:

> > > See rule 5.5 a

> > >

> > > Penalty for Breach of Rule 5.5: General Penalty.

> > > If the breach happens between two holes, the penalty applies to the next hole.

> > >

> >

> > You mean Rule 5.5b for practice in between two holes but this situation is covered in Rule 5.5a, which I've already pasted above and bolded the essential bits.

> >

> > If you don't believe me, the late Mr. Rhodes has the old Decision here:

> >

> > http://www.barryrhodes.com/2015/09/september-miscellany.html

> >

> > And you can find the Mapping Chart to check what happened to the Decision 7-2/1.7 in 2019 here, which tells us it didn't change and is now covered by Rule 5.5a (pasted above):

> >

> > http://www.walkercup.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2019/rules/Mapping%20Summary%20Chart%20-%20FINAL%20-%20revised%208.16.2019.pdf

>

> Another gotcha from just looking at the Players Edition rather than the Full Rules. Your answer is clear in the Full Rules, and not covered in the Players Edition...

 

The winter is coming, the Players' Edition should make for good tinder for your fireplace or a campfire.

[KevCarter]

> @Halebopp said:

> > @KevCarter said:

> >

> > Another gotcha from just looking at the Players Edition rather than the Full Rules. Your answer is clear in the Full Rules, and not covered in the Players Edition...

>

> The winter is coming, the Players' Edition should make for good tinder for your fireplace or a campfire.

 

LOL ???

[Newby]

Coincidentally, an interesting post from another forum.

 

**Query** In today's October Stableford on 12th hole Player A hit his ball out of bounds. Having found it he decided to pick up as he couldn't score at that point. However as the game was slow he dropped another ball down and hit a practice shot (full shot). His group asked us what the rule was. He was open that he stopped it down to play a practice shot as such he was given a 2 shot penalty for the next hole which he was happy enough with. After round another player Player B admitted doing pretty much the same thing in his round. Therefore the comp secretary DQ'ed him for signing for a lower score. I as handicap secretary said I would ask the R&A if both penalties were correct? The only small doubt I have is that some believe you can continue to hit shots in Stableford even if no score can be got and the rule break was playing from the wrong place which has a different penalty.

 

**Response**

Thank you for your email and queries on the Rules of Golf.

With regards to Player A he would be deemed to be between the play of two holes as he couldn’t score, therefore as per Rule 5.5b, between two holes, a player must not make a practice stroke. So the general penalty applying to the next hole was correct.

 

This followed an email to the R&A and reply that I had previously made and posted on the same forum

 

**Q** In a stableford competition, a member sliced his tee shot about 50 yards on a short par 4. He walked forward but can’t find it and realised it was possibly out of bounds. He dropped and continued with another ball. When asked what he was doing he said words to the effect ‘No score. I’m just playing this ball along with you’.

Does this constitute practice or does 5.5a apply?

 

**A** If he’s not followed correct procedure by going back to the tee, then he doesn’t score any points on the hole. Rule 5.5a would apply as the result has already been decided.

 

**Q** Is there any obligation on the player to declare that he/she is ‘out of it’ before continuing hitting the ball towards the hole? Other than telling his marker when he comes to record the score of course.

 

**A** There is no requirement to say they are out of it as it’s really just a point of fact. It is helpful though if the player does say something so that there is no doubt over their actions.

 

 

[Sawgrass]

In most of these circumstances I don’t understand how anyone, including the R&A, can determine whether a player is out of a hole without knowing if the stableford scoring has been modified, whether handicaps apply, what the player’s handicap might be and what the hole stroke allocation is.

[Newby]

It is pretty likely that his marker does.

Incidentally, modified stableford is rarely, if ever, played here.

[Mr. Bean]

So, in a Stableford competition, a player having lost his ball from the tee may drop an infinite number of balls and hit those to all directions and that is not practice as long as no one has started the next hole, is that it?

 

I must have missed something here...

[HitEmTrue]

If I understand correctly, @Newby has received conflicting answers from R&A?

[HitEmTrue]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> So, in a Stableford competition, a player having lost his ball from the tee may drop an infinite number of balls and hit those to all directions and that is not practice as long as no one has started the next hole, is that it?

>

> I must have missed something here...

 

Certainly there a distinction can be made between playing out a hole from a certain position, and playing multiple balls in all directions.

[Sawgrass]

> @Newby said:

> It is pretty likely that his marker does.

> Incidentally, modified stableford is rarely, if ever, played here.

 

When it comes to stableford scoring modifications, I say “go big or go home.” I like the big risk, big reward options — almost the opposite of stroke play.

 

In any case, when a player loses a tee shot on a par four, he still has an “eagle chance” at getting a legit par. So dropping in a random illegal location is still part of the subject hole IMO, and isn’t even a penalty until the ball is struck. So a score of zero still seems appropriate to me.

[Mr. Bean]

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > So, in a Stableford competition, a player having lost his ball from the tee may drop an infinite number of balls and hit those to all directions and that is not practice as long as no one has started the next hole, is that it?

> >

> > I must have missed something here...

>

> Certainly there a distinction can be made between playing out a hole from a certain position, and playing multiple balls in all directions.

 

Why? The quoted Decision says 'one ball in play'. Once I hit one ball I can always drop another to substitute the previous one and still have only one ball in play.

 

It all comes down to what Sawgrass already pointed out, modified Stableford. Once there is no chance to have any points you are practicing. Until then you may hit balls to all directions.

 

EDIT: This is actually very confusing. 'Playing out a hole whose result has been decided'. If I have played 8 strokes already on a par3 the result of that hole in Stableford has been decided for sure. But if I continue playing until I hole out on my 32nd stroke have I simply 'played out a hole' or have I practiced?

[antip]

> @KevCarter said:

> > @Halebopp said:

> > > @KevCarter said:

> > >

> > > Another gotcha from just looking at the Players Edition rather than the Full Rules. Your answer is clear in the Full Rules, and not covered in the Players Edition...

> >

> > The winter is coming, the Players' Edition should make for good tinder for your fireplace or a campfire.

>

> LOL ???

 

I'm guessing the useless PE would probably screw that job up too.

[antip]

> @HitEmTrue said:

> If I understand correctly, @Newby has received conflicting answers from R&A?

 

On the surface it looks a bit that way, but I suggest the two are not contradictory. In the first case, player A unambiguously stated he was practising. Hence it was a penalty. He did not say he was 'playing out a hole whose result was decided'. The second case was different, the player was very clearly 'playing along with you' which fits into the third bullet point of 5.5a No Practice Strokes While Playing Hole.

On this continent, 85 per cent of club competitions are Stableford and another 5 per cent are par. Finishing a hole that you have already blown a chance to score a Stableford point on is never 'practising', and it is very common unless there are pace of play issues constraining behaviour at that point in time.

[antip]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> So, in a Stableford competition, a player having lost his ball from the tee may drop an infinite number of balls and hit those to all directions and that is not practice as long as no one has started the next hole, is that it?

>

> I must have missed something here...

 

What you have described is starkly inconsistent with 'playing out a hole whose result has been decided' and I would consider such actions to be practice. IMO, 5.5a is clear, simply finishing the hole is not practice and it a general right. However, a person laboriously exercising that right is potentially at risk of breaching 5.6 if the action is causing unreasonable delay, which is a different penalty scenario.

[Mr. Bean]

> @antip said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > So, in a Stableford competition, a player having lost his ball from the tee may drop an infinite number of balls and hit those to all directions and that is not practice as long as no one has started the next hole, is that it?

> >

> > I must have missed something here...

>

> What you have described is starkly inconsistent with 'playing out a hole whose result has been decided' and I would consider such actions to be practice. IMO, 5.5a is clear, simply finishing the hole is not practice and it a general right. However, a person laboriously exercising that right is potentially at risk of breaching 5.6 if the action is causing unreasonable delay, which is a different penalty scenario.

 

I may be beating a dead horse here but I try to elaborate what I mean.

 

A group of 4 is playing modified Stableford. Player A 1st on the tee drives his ball on a par5 out of bounds twice and he gets no strokes on that hole. So he is teeing up 3rd time and lying 5, which is the score he would make 2 points. He drives once more and his ball lands in the rough. Going there he cannot find it. At this point there is no way he can score any points but decides to play a ball with the rest of the group. Drops one and hits it in the rough. Cannot find it and drops another one. And another one.

 

So, at which point this turns into practice? How many balls is he allowed to drop and where? He is not slowing down the group so 5.6 is not relevant.

[Augster]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @antip said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > So, in a Stableford competition, a player having lost his ball from the tee may drop an infinite number of balls and hit those to all directions and that is not practice as long as no one has started the next hole, is that it?

> > >

> > > I must have missed something here...

> >

> > What you have described is starkly inconsistent with 'playing out a hole whose result has been decided' and I would consider such actions to be practice. IMO, 5.5a is clear, simply finishing the hole is not practice and it a general right. However, a person laboriously exercising that right is potentially at risk of breaching 5.6 if the action is causing unreasonable delay, which is a different penalty scenario.

>

> I may be beating a dead horse here but I try to elaborate what I mean.

>

> A group of 4 is playing modified Stableford. Player A 1st on the tee drives his ball on a par5 out of bounds twice and he gets no strokes on that hole. So he is teeing up 3rd time and lying 5, which is the score he would make 2 points. He drives once more and his ball lands in the rough. Going there he cannot find it. At this point there is no way he can score any points but decides to play a ball with the rest of the group. Drops one and hits it in the rough. Cannot find it and drops another one. And another one.

>

> So, at which point this turns into practice? How many balls is he allowed to drop and where? He is not slowing down the group so 5.6 is not relevant.

 

Infinite?

 

Unless there is some legal local rule telling players they MUST pick up after they are getting zero points, I’d think a player would be allowed to go on forever if you must. Doesn’t seem likely. The OP’s inquiry is much more likely.

 

As Sawgrass has stated, without knowing what the par on the hole is, what the hole handicap is, and how many shots the player is getting, the guidance Newby got from the R and A is ambiguous.

 

Halebopp’s posting of the actual rule contradicts the R and A explanation also. If the player is legitimately trying to play out the hole, even with illegal drops and playing from wrong place, it is expressly permitted in the rules. Saying stuff like “I’m practicing” is practice. Short of an admission of guilt, I’d guess no further penalties beyond the hole where the player scored a zero.

[Mr. Bean]

Personally I would forbid any ball playing after the result of a hole is determined. The way I see it all strokes not recorded are practice. What else could they be and what other motive would a player have to make those strokes?

[Sawgrass]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> Personally I would forbid any ball playing after the result of a hole is determined. The way I see it all strokes not recorded are practice. What else could they be and what other motive would a player have to make those strokes?

 

Upon what authority would you forbid this play? Your determination is clearly in opposition to 5.5a, which says in part that strokes made by a player in playing out a hole whose result has been decided are NOT practice strokes.

 

(And there are several legitimate motives for wanting to continue play.)

 

 

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > Personally I would forbid any ball playing after the result of a hole is determined. The way I see it all strokes not recorded are practice. What else could they be and what other motive would a player have to make those strokes?

>

> Upon what authority would you forbid this play? Your determination is clearly in opposition to 5.5a, which says in part that strokes made by a player in playing out a hole whose result has been decided are NOT practice strokes.

>

> (And there are several legitimate motives for wanting to continue play.)

>

>

>

>

 

Upon what authority??? Are you serious?

 

I can make any wish I want and I have all the authority in the universe to do that.

[Sawgrass]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > > Personally I would forbid any ball playing after the result of a hole is determined. The way I see it all strokes not recorded are practice. What else could they be and what other motive would a player have to make those strokes?

> >

> > Upon what authority would you forbid this play? Your determination is clearly in opposition to 5.5a, which says in part that strokes made by a player in playing out a hole whose result has been decided are NOT practice strokes.

> >

> > (And there are several legitimate motives for wanting to continue play.)

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Upon what authority??? Are you serious?

>

> I can make any wish I want and I have all the authority in the universe to do that.

 

You seem to feel this has become a Rules of Bean site instead of a Rules of Golf. I'm not particularly interested in that, but if it helps you to express yourself . . .

[Newby]

> @Augster said:the guidance Newby got from the R and A is ambiguous.

>

> Halebopp’s posting of the actual rule contradicts the R and A explanation also. If the player is legitimately trying to play out the hole, even with illegal drops and playing from wrong place, it is expressly permitted in the rules. Saying stuff like “I’m practicing” is practice. Short of an admission of guilt, I’d guess no further penalties beyond the hole where the player scored a zero.

 

I am a little confused. Which of the R&A's responses are you referring to?

I my case, the player knew he was 'out of it', how does that present any ambiguity. In the other case, he said he was practising and that's how the R&A ruled.

 

[Newby]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> Personally I would forbid any ball playing after the result of a hole is determined. The way I see it all strokes not recorded are practice. What else could they be and what other motive would a player have to make those strokes?

 

I assume that you meant you would like to see the rule changed to 'forbid ...........'

[HitEmTrue]

> @Newby

> I am a little confused. Which of the R&A's responses are you referring to?

> I my case, the player knew he was 'out of it', how does that present any ambiguity. In the other case, he said he was practising and that's how the R&A ruled.

>

 

Why should what the player’s words matter? Two players take identical actions, one plays out the hole saying “I thought it would be fun” and the other says “I thought it might help my game” and one of them gets a penalty?