Reeds scrape away

[KevCarter]

Thank you Blade, Cheers!

[Dpavs]

Oddly enough I think that is the video that was used to show how he pushed the rough down with the head of his club to improve his lie. During the video he pushes so hard down with the club that at one point you can see the shaft bend. Intent or not, I can't say, but odd anyway.

[jmck]

I mean the title of the video is literally "Patrick Reed illegally grounding his club in pre shot by pushing turf down. Watch the shaft bend," and the caption from 2015 is literally "Patrick Reed cheating at U.S. Open by pushing down on turf in pre-shot routine."

Not sure why Blade is trumpeting it as some sort of exoneration.

[bladehunter]

As usual. I am not able to translate my thoughts to paper.

 

 

Im not trumpeting it as an exoneration perSay .... it’s either and exoneration or an indictment of the whole game .... take your pick.

 

I see zero real difference in that move in the grass vs sand. So if he’s cheating on the sand. Then he’s cheating on the grass. And so are a lot of other players. Which is it ? ( real question ).

[bladehunter]

Forgot to add. Other possibility being that it’s a bad habit , that is accepted and widely copied , and therefore not conscious cheating , but in my mind probably a violation each time.

[wobgon]

I never said if he did that on other shots he was cheating...….I only said that if he did not do it on other shots and only did it with sand behind his ball it could be sigh that he is cheating.....

[bladehunter]

Yea yea. I’m not accusing. Just was also curious and wanted to track down the info.

[wobgon]

Thanks.

[tacklingdummy]

A lot of pros break rules, but they are not on camera nor are they called on it. For example, Kendall Dye at LPGA qualifying. When she asked a playing partner's caddie for confirmation of club she was using. She said "have played professional golf for 10 years and has see this done thousands of times between players, caddies, and media and never seen one penalty called." That says a lot of what goes on in professional golf and puts it more in perspective. Reed definitely should have received a penalty and was quite blatant, but he is not the only guy that has rules infractions. Far from it. His was just very public.

 

[Sean2]

I don't recall saying or quoting: "Another that thinks he didn't know he could not improve his lie?" And, that was not my inference, that was your interpretation of what I said.

My contention has always been that proof of his cheating is not irrefutable. If the evidence is not irrefutable, then what other way should one take those accusations? More and more we see "Ready, fire, aim". Just sayin'.

I am not a Patrick Reed fanboy, but I don't much care for condemning someone based more on what the condemner wants to believe than what is actually true.

Did Reed cheat? I don't know and there's the rub...I can't condemn a man based on "I think...".

[lowheel]

this is a fair and even handed take, we need more of those in here. Great stuff

[lowheel]

find me an interview of a player who agrees with a ruling... theyre rare to non existent

[lowheel]

for reference spieth does this all the time on the tee. you can see his driver/3 wood shaft flex as he rehearses lowering the handle prior to taking the club back.Does it in the fairway with his irons too. players who want to rehearse a flatter plain do this as a trigger or reminder. here it can be seen. he flexes down on it many times. at around 38-40 seconds you see it. its dramatic. Justin thomas, patrick reed, Deschambeau and others do it.i remember Vijay doing that alot with his driver back in the day

 

[Titleist99]

Club spying is the most common infraction in golf. What percentage of golfers are guilty of this? 100%...….

[LICC]

The rule specifically allows this on the tee box only.

[b.helts]

Club spying is not an infraction. Club indicating is an infraction.

I have, and will continue to, look at what other people hit on some shots. I will not indicate or tell anyone what I’ve hit or am going to hit. At least not before we are all off the tee or fairway or whatever.

[Shilgy]

Do you wish to clarify that statement? Club spying-looking in another players bag- is legal. Asking or telling another player or caddie about club selection is not. And no- not all players share that information.

[lowheel]

I have news for you then!! lots of guys do this in the fairway and rough. its like a tick for some. I have personally been 20 feet next to stenson like 5 years ago and he was doing it continuously. it wasnt cheating, it was part of his routine before taking it back.

[lowheel]

exactly right. anybody who has played pro golf knows this. Caddies do most of the dirty work on this. Nothing wrong with that. i remember laughin at canadian q school many moons ago my fellow competitor 7-8 seconds after i hit my shot saying out loud wow you really smoked that 4 iron.he was 20 feet away from me lol.

[Titleist99]

LOL!...Especially on a cold windy day, the  balls not going anywhere and you have water on the right......

[Golfjack]

I like how we are just judging Reed's morality which we will never truly know. The real question is, if you are breaking a rule unconsciously, is it a bad thing? Or just slightly better or a lot better than breaking a rule consciuosly? One thing I know is that Reed, despite his mock shoveling in the Prez Cup, won't do this in a waste bunker again. But otherwise, grounding a club in rough or whatever non bunker area is fully legal. Pro's don't need to know all rules, but if they don't, they pay for it sometimes if they violate them. Intent didn't matter in this case. I think it's clear that we shouldn't judge the guy's character on this. If you put it in court, I doubt you could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he had intent to do it.

Just this Sunday I flattened a divot mark beside my ball on the fairway. I feel like I broke the rule, but it was too late when I stamped down on it without thinking. Did I improve my lie? It wasn't in the clubpath or line of sight, but I still feel like it was wrong. So yeah, I'm not holier than anyone here LOL.

[sui generis]

 

THIS IS INCORRECT - Stop posting bogus information!

See Definition of Advice, the look at the relevant Interpretation. Rules and Interpretations

 

[Hawkeye77]

He was talking about tamping down the ground behind the ball, but your assumption he was posting bogus info or at the very least meaningless was not unreasonable, lol.

[LICC]

Oh I believe you!

[LICC]

Wrong again. Aren’t you getting tired of losing arguments to me so often?

[LICC]

Reference one post where I ever gave “bogus” info.

[Titleist 670]

Why are people pretending like Reed didn't know the rule? In his interview after the incident, he seemed to completely understand the rule. Can we put that one to rest already?

His contention was that he was far enough behind the ball to where if he took his backswing it wouldn't have mattered, and the camera angle made it look worse than it was. He didn't think what he did was severe enough to improve his lie.

"I didn’t feel like it really would have affected my lie. I mean every time I get in the bunker, I’m scared to even get my club close to it. It was that far away, but whenever you do that if it does hit the sand, just like if you’re in a hazard area and you take a practice swing and it brushes grass and the grass breaks, it’s a penalty. So because of that and after seeing the video, I accept that, and it wasn’t because of any intent, I thought I was far enough away.”

What people are questioning is how on earth he felt he was far enough away. That angle (and one from the front of his shot) does not make it seem like his club is plenty far away from the ball, at all, and his actions prior to the shot are definitely of someone who is very concerned about that lie, because he is walking around it, inspecting it, and putting his club very close to the ball.

It's funny that people want to say "Pat isn't dumb enough to break a rule in front of a camera!" and then turn right around and say "Pat is so dumb that he didn't know improving your lie is a penalty and it's just a routine he has in the waste area!". You can't have it both ways.

The fact that a few pros called him out and JT openly mocked him for it at the President's Cup (which is an roundabout way, I think, of saying "we know what you did" without crossing the line of calling him a cheater) is quite telling to me.

[bladehunter]

Hard to say on that one. He’d just been educated on the rule by the officials. So yes. He knew at interview. But did he know at address ?

[bscinstnct]

 

[Londoner]

What are you referring to?

I ask again, are you saying he didn't know that he couldn't improve his lie?