Royal Melbourne = goofy golf

[jjr]

I think Road took me up on the suggestion I made to him in another thread "smoke some more"

Come on, seriously, if MacKenzie is not the all time best Tillinghast is right there with him!

[danman44]

you are tripping.. Royal Melbourne is a fantastic course and also showed the world you dont need 8000 yards and knee high rough to be a stern challenge. Shorter firm and fast courses bring the skill back into the game and also bring the entire field closer to a level playing field.. can you imagine Corey Pavin taking on Brooks on a regular tour course？But on a layout such as RM anybody has a fighting chance. Being and ex Melbobourne resident I played all the sanbelt courses regularly in competition and in penants, the courses are entirely playable from the right angle.. if you just want to bomb driver and gouge wedges then yeah you wont have fun but for me id play RM anytime vs pebble beach for instance

[LICC]

It really wasn’t a stern challenge. Match play hid the low scores. Reed would have shot a 64 on Sunday. Tiger 67. A stroke play tournament would have the leaders at -15 I think.

[Chanceman]

Again, you bark up the wrong tree. This was matchplay, you can go for it. In strokeplay you have to be more conservative, or is that not clear? Worst penalty in MP is loss of hole, in SP you could lose the tournament. Anyway, in PGA terms a 64 or a 67 is not especially low, see plenty of those scores at Augusta. There were benign conditions at RM, cool, no wind to speak of, so what do you expect? - Tiger to shoot 73?

[LICC]

Except Doak is a consulting architect at RM, and he has commented on how they set up the course to play firmer for the Presidents Cup than it does during everyday play. So you either think that Tom Doak doesn’t know what he is talking about or he is making things up. I would think he knows what he is talking about and isn’t making things up.

[LICC]

That’s all @fairwayfred ever says, they haven’t played the course, blah, blah ... Regardless of context he just babbles the same response. I haven’t once complained about the course or denied it is a great course.

[LICC]

Have you ever played match play? Because you seem to be grasping here. In match play, sometimes you are aggressive and sometimes you aren’t. It depends on the circumstances. And you argue with straw men too. I didn’t say the course was a pushover, just that it really isn’t a stern test. It’s about the same difficulty as any other decently challenging Tour course.

[anth]

Course was not dried out. That’s how it would normally look and play for this time of year.

Also, the Euro Tour never plays a course like this. I can’t think of one. What courses are you thinking of?

[FairwayFred]

No sorry bud I mostly only say that to you when you start talking about something you clearly have no idea about (often). Like when you specifically named courses that you felt were over rated and didn't deserve to be in the top 100 and then admitted you had not played them. Notice I'm not even close to the only one in this thread calling you out for your ignorance.

[LICC]

Yawn yawn ...

[FairwayFred]

Nothing of substance to say. Like usual.

[mallrat]

To your point and what you just said, “they” set it up not “he”, they. But keep disagreeing with everyone here, it shows well for you.

[LICC]

Do you think the greens at RM for normal everyday play are kept at the same speeds that they were for the Presidents Cup?

[davep043]

That's what people who live on the course, and who play the course regularly, have said. I haven't read what Tom Doak said, was he at the event? Can you point me to where I can read his remarks for myself?

[LICC]

I quoted him directly in an earlier post.

[vallygolf]

A search for matching quotes yields no matches. Would you be so kind to give the source? Thx

[davep043]

Just as with the Rules, I prefer to read the entire thing for myself, so that I can understand the context, and read anything else that was said. If its just something you heard on the television, that's fine, I'm just asking.

[RainShadow]

Blasphemy!

 

[davep043]

I think the proof lies in the ability of the players to adapt. After seeing the results of the first few days, they adjusted their shot selection and began getting close to more and more pins. It wasn't the course that made things "goofy", it was the players lack of understanding of how they needed to play.

[RainShadow]

Your issues with the greens not holding shots as well are not a design flaw, but a product of the conditions, I think.

I loved the course. I think it required sound strategy and shot making.

 

[RainShadow]

Exactly.

Mackenzie was a master course designer.

I was baffled that everyone was still driving it through the corner on #1 after the third day.

I loved that the course required thought and execution, instead of firing bombs from the tee and hop and stop wedges.

Good shots into greens were rewarded and poorer ones were left with difficult, long putts.

[LICC]

 

From the Golf Club Atlas site, I cut and pasted exactly the entire post, so the formatting is off but here it is. The question posed "I've really loved watching the PC and precision required of the best golfers on the planet. My question is how expensive is it to fine tune a course to this level of perfection? It seems Augusta like in over-the-top conditioning. I know my own course would have to spend a fortune getting the greens and surrounds into comparable condition and that most of our golfers would go elsewhere in disgust because we'd be making the golf too difficult. Also, that there is lots of mowing labor. But once these investments have been made, is this level of conditioning sustainable for every day play?"

His response:

 

Tom_DoakYaBB God

Karma: +0/-0

Re: just curious...Royal Melbourne perfection?« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2019, 12:02:31 PM »

Royal Melbourne is in excellent condition for day to day play, but it's not often as firm as you are seeing on TV. 

 

 

You can only take the Enterprise to Warp 8 for a few days . . . if you try to keep it there she'll blow up. I doubt the greens will be speed rolled again for a while after today. 

 

 

It's kind of like working out; the harder you go, the more rest your muscles need to recover, but at the same time it makes your body stronger.

 

 

I should say, though, that the budget for maintenance there is nowhere near to the levels you see at Augusta National or indeed many other top clubs in America. I don't know the numbers, but I would be willing to bet that Royal Melbourne maintains 36 holes for twelve months of the year, for less than Augusta maintains its 18 holes plus par-3 course for its eight month golf season

[vallygolf]

thx Incredible that RM can maintain the course at such a high level with the smaller budget. Must be a combo of sand and grass type available. Looks like that even has a shelf life. If the greens during the tournament were running say 12-13 on the stimp, what would they be for normal play (for those who play it regularly)

[davep043]

You could have just posted a link, but thanks. Actually, I realize now that you can't, I'll let people know how to find it in a minute. From reading this, and the remainder of that thread, it seems that Mr. Doak wasn't on site at the time. He also didn't have the information to answer the question that was asked, so he may not be really familiar with the preparation for this specific event. Certainly he knows golf courses, and understands many maintenance issues, but he may have been making his judgement the same way we did, based on what he saw on the television. I'm one who doesn't claim to know the absolute truth. Mr Doak was there for a while when doing the renovations, others live and play there regularly. I'm sure neither one is making things up, so the reality is probably somewhere in the middle.

For anyone else who wants to read it, here's the link: Golf Club Atlas - IndexIf you plug "Royal Melbourne is in excellent condition" in the search box (Yes, use the quotation marks) you'll get to the discussion thread in question.

[LICC]

The link is in what I posted also, click the line that says Re: just curious ... Royal Melbourne perfection?

 

[davep043]

Interesting, and you're right. I tried posting the entire link from my browser's address bar, and came up with Error 500, so I went the long way round.

[Pepperturbo]

Each organization (The PGA, the USGA, LPGA and R&A, etc.) has a tournament dept with a leader. He/she typically takes over a course from three to six months out from the event. They even control when member/guest play is allowed, and all aspects of turf and green mgt. Last I knew Kerry Haigh of the PGA of America and staff did the setup for PGA Championship. Not sure who did RM Presidents Cup venue. Anyway, it may be one person but most of the time it's a team that takes full or partial control of a course, depends on the event and what's agreed upon in the contract.

[CMCSGolf]

In the McKellar golf podcast that dropped yesterday, Mike Clayton was a guest and he said that the greens were slower and softer than for an amateur event he caddied in earlier this year. I'm not sure how this compares to day to day conditions at RM, but they've been faster recently. If anyone would know, it would probably be him.

[Chanceman]

Crikey! You are a marvel. My 10 year old argues like you do. Of course i have played Match play, perhaps you havent? And here goes, I never said that you said it was a pushover. You said it was not a stern test. And what does that mean? But you seem to think it has to be like Oakmont or Carnoustie, Its just a bloody good golf course, better than most, if you pardon the expression. Almost perfect, as Tiger said. I need some sleep.

[mallrat]

Wasn’t meaning to debate that. To the extent they take over I will happily defer to BNGL, as i have no 1st hand experience with that and he does. I will say, from my understanding they came in as more of a consulting role. But even then, they are a consulting agronomist, not a course designer.

 

My only experience with that is through an acquaintance who was the super at Chambers Bay for the US Open. He openly fought everyone up to 2 years prior to convert the greens to Poa and the USGA would not do it.