Royal Melbourne = goofy golf

[LICC]

Do you think the greens at RM for normal everyday play are kept at the same speeds that they were for the Presidents Cup?

[LICC]

Maybe, but he is a bit of a cheerleader. I've been reading some information from the course staff and those that come in to help with the big tournaments (other superintendents from other courses). Given that the existing two-course staff comes in for preparation for the Presidents Cup and 45 additional volunteers come in, it doesn't compute that the conditions will be just the same as during regular play. One particular item of note is that for the high profile events they turn off the automated irrigation system and hand water only, to make the greens faster. Granted, these are from the previous President's Cup and the World Cup, but it tells you how the preparation work is different. Some quotes:From Andrew Thomson’s Presidents Cup Diary

Preparing and presenting a golf course for a globally significant tournament is no easy task. It takes more than just a few months to do this, and Richard Forsyth has lived up to his reputation as Australia’s premier master of turf care. We members of Royal Melbourne, and those other Melbourne golfers who know and love the course, are delighted with what Richard has given us this week. But what of those who are seeing it for the first time? What do they think?

Andrew McDaniel grew up in Alabama. These days he serves as the only foreign golf course superintendent in Japan, where he looks after Keya Golf Club near Fukuoka, a ten-minute drive from your diarist’s house. From Thursday last week he joined Richard Forsyth’s team to help prepare the Composite Course for the Presidents Cup. In past years Andrew has done the same thing for the Ryder Cup and the U.S. Open. He knows the best courses in the United States.

“It’s amazing,” he says in his lovely Alabama drawl. “The way the turf is cut so short all around, even around the tees and between the greens and the next tee. That’s impressive. We never do that in Japan.”

What is it in particular about this golf course that catches your imagination, I asked him.

“As an American superintendent working in Japan for the past 18 years, and virtually my entire professional career, it’s been somewhat of a dream to come and see Royal Melbourne. During our orientation Richard was quick to let us know that some things on the course might look out of place, but that’s how he likes it. He only strives for perfectly manicured areas where it matters. After going to the course to see it in person it was quite overwhelming. Tees, fairways, approaches, and greens are perfect. The rough as Richard says, it is what it is. And the bunkers - I’m not sure how to describe the bunkers. They’re very natural, intimidating, and the most beautiful piece of artwork you can find on a golf course anywhere in the world.”

As a superintendent yourself, what strikes you about the way the course is prepared?

“The water management of the turf is very precise, with only hand watering to the surfaces that need it to ensure they keep the firmness they are looking for. The course being in the sand belt, everything under the turf is sand, and the bunkers are basically dug out and it’s the natural sand which makes the bunkers. Water management is also very carefully done to the bunkers to ensure they stay firm as well, so that no balls bury in the soft sand.”

So says the professional man of the turf.

...

Paul Thomas and John Mann are the two 2IC’s at Royal Melbourne Golf Club in Melbourne’s sandbelt. Paul looks after the acclaimed West course and John the East. Currently, they are beginning preparations for the aforementioned tournaments. How will you guys and Richard be looking to present the course?John– We are planning to mow fairways with Toro 5610 mowers cutting all in one direction, from tee to green.

If you have got your turf surfaces in a good condition and good health you don’t really need to stripe them, you can showcase them naturally. At Royal Melbourne we are all about being natural. That was the philosophy of the designer, so it is important we present the golf course to match that philosophy.

We hand mow greens and green surrounds with Toro Flex 21 mowers, eight on greens and 10 on the surrounds and approaches. We mow up and back on the same lines.

Then we use Toro Greenmaster 1000 fixed heads on the championship tees, plus we will Triplex the non-competition tees. A lot of the work hours in the evening will depend on weather….Paul And tee times for the next morning. It will depend on what we can get done first thing in the morning.John– We won’t turn on any automated irrigation on the surrounds, approaches and the greens pretty much from now on, everything will be about hand watering because you can specifically control where the water goes. That is Richard’s philosophy for producing firm, fast surfaces.

 

[smashdn]

So, we thinking the presentation was closer to TOC playing conditions than TPC-Boston?

[jhaw]

was refreshing to see a course that wasn't just long, but required precision

[Pepperturbo]

As I said, when the contract is signed with a club to host an event like a Cup, typically orgs like the PGA require they take over the course management. Yes, consulting but the contract stipulates the level of their involvement, normally, it's considerable. That may or may not mean the club's superintendent relinquishes some or all of the course care. I've seen it where he's guided by the PGA tournament team agronomist. I've never seen the designer involved, but that could happen.

I know the PGA and USGA dictate turf care leading up to events. They may provide their own grounds keeping staff to the course to assist in care and at some juncture take over completely short of the event. Depending on the type of turf, the PGA's course staff may change turf grain direction on certain fairways, even slow green speed leading up to the event, then speed them up to what the PGA or USGA wants just before and during the event. Even the best high end courses that I've played at and been associated with don't regularly keep greens above 12 stemp. It's too costly and easy to lose them.

[mallrat]

To be honest, I have no idea. I have no knowledge of what the stimps were or are normally. But, I would say, the ones who have chimes in who should know you have said they are wrong.

[mallrat]

You have more experience in this than I do so I will gladly defer to you on this.

 

About the stimps being kept above 12, I don’t know. I know of 1 course in my region that does regularly. And the course I worked at last year kept the private side between 11.5 & 12.5 with member guest getting above a 13. So, no, I know of very few courses who keep their greens at a 12 or above. I don’t know what Royal Melbournes were at. But I know courses can play hard and fast without the turf being overly stressed. Honestly, I hate stimp meters, I believe that green speeds should match the contours of the green, whatever speed that may be for the course. RM’s looked like they matched very well.

 

My bigger point was I don’t think the designer had any input on the course conditions and it sounds like he wasn’t even on site.

[LICC]

Have said who is wrong? How would someone who didn’t play this past weekend really know? Did you not see what I just posted quoting the actual grounds crews who have worked on past events there?

So you have no opinion but seem to think everyone disagrees with me, even though Tom Doak and the people who actually worked on the course are consistent with my estimate. Sure.

[Malvern]

LICC, not completely sure where you are trying to get to, I will concede the greens for the PC appeared quicker than they are for general play but not by the quantum you seem to want to imply. The course (and those around) are what they are in a Melbourne summer (hot, dry, windy)

Nice dismissal of "cheerleader" Clayts as well, if you won't listen to him about RM, my amateur musings aren't going to convince you of anything.

 

[mallrat]

First of all, from the interview it didn’t sound like Doak was even on site. You make it sound like his word is gospel on this subject.

 

I did read read the quotes from the groundscrew and it didn’t sound like they did anything really out of the norm for them besides going to hand watering from overnight irrigation which in reality is a much more accurate way of doing it.

And you directly said someone who posted who is a member at RM is wrong

 

[LICC]

I didn’t hear the podcast, but the couple of things I read from Clayton he compared the speeds to other tournaments held at RM, not regular everyday play.

[Hawkeye77]

Oh brother.

A first hand report from this year's event and you minimize it for no reason and then copy in an endless bunch of stuff which has nothing to do with conditions a last week's event.

Same crap, same pattern.

Just quit.

[ddetts]

I didn't have much issue with the full shots, it was little chips and pitches that still rolled forever and almost in a circle at times.

 

As I said, I've enjoyed the majority and view almost everything positively. Just agreed with OP that a few shots and putts literally looked like something you'd have to do on a crazy putt-putt hole.

[LICC]

Ah, hearing from the people who prepare the course for big tournaments has nothing to do with a discussion about preparing the course for a big tournament. Lol!

[Hawkeye77]

We reached the point some time ago where hearing from you in this thread has had nothing to do with the actual discussion.

[LICC]

It also seemed to me that the greens were slightly more receptive and slightly less fast on the last day of singles matches. Maybe Tom Doak was right that they didn’t speed roll them again or maybe they noticed the same thing some of us did about a few greens being too fast the first couple of days and they hand watered just a bit more. At those speeds, 1 or 2 feet on the stimpmeter can make a significant difference on holding a green or not. They all seemed perfect on that last day.

[Chanceman]

Better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

[LICC]

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. - Eleanor Roosevelt.

[Man_O_War]

it just means you hit it to the wrong places.

[Schley]

RIP Hayden!.......... Schley '97

[Pepperturbo]

I doubt Tom Doak was there during play, so you're more than likely right. From all I could find, Course owners contracted Tom Doak to help in the update and prepare the Royal Melbourne Composite course for the Cup and other events, but that was long before course preparations began for the Cup event.

Tom Doak said in one interview, green contours would make some players look a bit silly if their ball lands in the wrong spot while another person said the course would play short. It was also implied long hitters would pay the price, and 3-putt stats will increase. What was projected about the course happened.

The course IMO was correctly prepared. I watched three full days of play. From that, my guess is greens were around 11.5-12. All the greens held well-placed shots with no noticeable ball marks, and some balls even came to a stop on edges of minor slopes. It was green contours and undulation that fed incoming balls off the greens that made them appear faster than reality. Have a good day.

[Pepperturbo]

All the greens held well-placed shots with no noticeable ball marks, and some balls even came to a stop on edges of slopes. It was purposely planned green contours and undulations that fed misplaced incoming balls and chip shots that lacked spin off some greens. That made the greens appear faster than reality.

Watch the upcoming January Maui - Kapalua tournament on the Plantation course. I have played there hundred times. Greens appear fast but due to wind they keep the large greens somewhat slow by tour standards. A misplaced shot that finds an undulation could easily feed off the green or result in the dreaded 3-4 putt. Hole #1 the ball can turn the opposite direction if not hit to the correct spot. There are others but Hole #18 is another example. Balls typically land short of the green or on the front but can easily run all the way to the back and turn left, even run off the green into the junk. Mind you, the greens are not fast, its just undulations and contours that need to be respected. My 2cents. Have a good day.

[LICC]

When the USGA first measured green speeds with a stimpmeter in the late 1970s at Oakmont, Winged Foot, Merion, Augusta and others, the speeds ranged from the high 6s to the mid-8s, with the highest at just under 10. Times have changed.

[Irishman1979]

Ok enough! You need learn to keep your mouth shut. I've been sitting back reading your bs on here and you are not even from Australia, let alone live on the course like the poster you are debating with does. What gives you the right to be disrespectful and to speak to him about Royal Melbourne? You need to step foot on that course before you even start debating with him about Royal Melbourne. I believe what he says, and I'm sorry you are having such a hard time believing him because the courses you play are your local muni where you are lucky if the green speeds go over 7. In your world no superintendent would ever set the greens to 15, but RM is on a totally different planet than the one you know.

[LICC]

How dare you comment on Australia's greatest course when you are trying to make people think that Australia's great Greg Norman was really Irish! No more comments about Australia from you sir!

[vallygolf]

While I submit @LICC often wades discussions into darkness and confused absurdity to a seeming unknown end, I will have to agree that 15 on the stimp would be unplayable on an overwhelming majority of courses. I cannot speak for RM as I have not set foot on in, it seems unlikely that 15 on the stimp would be playable. I also think humans in general are poor judges of stimp speeds. Here is a fun link from this forum with insightful discussion on the topic.https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1583638/stimpmeter-reality-vs-perception/p1

[Irishman1979]

lol

[Pepperturbo]

Yes, times have changed but more specifically, so has agronomy science, the costly fine-tuned equipment used to maintain greens and turf, seed, chemicals, and knowledge that goes into maintaining fairways and greens, and tournament greens that can reach 13-14 on Stimp and cost up to 300k a pop. They can be lost over a week of poor judgment. I've been on two Boards of substantial CC. Setting on a management committee of a course owned by a benevolent dictator is one thing, being on the BOD of equity country clubs is another. The latter leaders actually manage all departments including course Superintendent and staff, course updates, acquisitions and design changes. Yet most clubs have a GM in place and leaders have professions elsewhere. One additional step that better clubs may use is meet with other private club leaders/owners to discuss best practices, and how to tackle various issues.

Greens today that are 7-9 are thought slow but normal and fitting for municipal type courses. Upscale & resort and high end private clubs typically want faster greens because they attract better golfers and outside events. However, fast and really fast call for skill and are costly with limits to ensure turf remains healthy. Management can't overlook the fact turf quality and speed depends greatly on course location and surrounding weather conditions, etc. Have a good day.

 

 

[platgof]

Let's see, they mow it straight at the green for a natural look, right!! Then they turn off the irrigation system to make it look natural again, right. I am not buying this at all, and yes, the members can lie there a.. off. I said the European tour is used to playing golf courses like this, so are you inferring that european course are set up as plush as U.S. courses? How about South Africa, Spain, and Portugal to name a few countries that have extremely dry courses. Please name the courses in the U.S. that are just as dry? Ernie had his BOYS set it up dry so they would have an advantage, plain and simple, move on and quit making excuses.

[platgof]

I still haven't seen those scores! Especially the ones where the course was set up harder the the President's Cup????? Pleasssseeeee!!!