"Net Double Bogey" How stupid is this?

[CaymanS]

Why add meaningless complication to scoring. How do golfers benefit from this change?

[ThinkingPlus]

There is an entire thread discussing the World Handicap System changes coming Jan 1 (USGA demesnes). See https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1795354/new-world-handicap-system.

[sdandrea]

Net double bogey is clean, simple and world-wide. Your max post on a hole is double bogey plus the number of strokes you get on that hole. Takes about 2 seconds to compute.

[davep043]

A. This is the only change that U.S. Golfers will need to make. The rest of the world understands and uses Stableford scoring on a regular basis, it's not really rocket science. I'm addition, hole by hole posting will be made much easier, so you don't have to do any adjustment, or even any thinking, on your own.

2. Have you had your head in the sand for the last year?

[BKN1964]

Since I started carrying a handicap, I thought ESC was stupid. Posting a 7 on a par 3 felt much different than posting a 7 on a par 5. I can't even really explain the logic of why I felt it was stupid.

[jvincent]

My only issue with net double, and it's really just being nit-picky, is that the handicap holes are not always assigned according to absolute difficulty.

Personally if I were in charge, I'd actually change it to max bogey for indexes up to 3, max double from 3-12, and then max triple above 12.

[duffer987]

Are you currently a 2.9 and want to stay there? ;-) Why not make it max par? East way to a plus cap then :-)

Net double is just soooooooo simple. Everyone posting uses the same formula; job done. Segregating by index range was always a bit ropey.

Anyone (the OP, not you) seeing it as a complication either doesn't seriously post scores for handicap purposes or is a pillock... well OK, could be both.

[nsxguy]

 

Have you ever heard of "ESC" (Equitable Stroke Control) ?

 

So ESC really DOES have a fan,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Who knew ? LOL

[larrybud]

I have a golf website in which I deal with golf leagues and casual players all the time, on a daily basis.

The VAST majority of them don't even understand the difference between Handicap Index and Course Handicap, so for them to calculate Net Double Bogey will be impossible since they don't even know how (or that it exist) to calculate Course Handicap.

Mathematically I agree with the change, but in a real-world situation, short of forcing players to enter their hole by hole scores, I believe most people will do it incorrectly, or just stop applying ESC.

[jvincent]

Agree with @larrybud , people already screw up ESC. Having to keep track of where strokes are allocated makes it that much easier to mess up.
According to some of the rules folks I was in a discussion with there was a suggestion that hole-by-hole score posting was going to become mandatory, in which case keeping track of net double wouldn't fall on the golfer but apparently that requirement isn't adopted.
I guess we'll see how it all shakes out in the new year.
@nsxguy , ESC makes sense in the context of the handicap system so I guess it does make me a fan. Since no system is perfect, I'm fine with both the old and new one.

[Sean2]

Seems simple enough.

[Deerwood Golfer716]

I like the net double bogey, seems fairly easy for me to keep track of as a beginner golfer

[DavePelz4]

One of the guys in our group is a 34. He uses net double bogey a LOT.

[klebs01]

The funny part about the complaint is that it's completely unnecessary to even think about it. Just pop your scores into the app or the website like I've (Wisconsin) been doing for years and you don't have to think about it at all. It seems like this change is just an excuse people have been looking for to complain.

[Augustok]

I too like the net double bogie mostly because I never thought a 7 or 8, depending on ones course handicap, on a par 3 made sense. As an experiment in the fall my regular foursome tried the new system for a few rounds. One day nobody had a max score either the old or new way to adjust. The other couple of days there were a couple on the par 3s which would have been less than in 2019. I think after a couple of weeks people who are serious about keeping score will get it. It is really kind of insulting to imply that people are too stupid to keep score either with this year’s ESC max rules or the 2020 Net Double Max way.

[Sawgrass]

While I don’t doubt that you encounter ignorant people, I’m sure those same people didn’t know how to figure their course handicap before applying the correct ESC score for the past decade. The new system is not harder.

[SNIPERBBB]

If you're in the low single, high teens or around 36 handicap, you don't have many stroke holes to keep track of.

[Colin L]

What an amount of complicated over-thinking going on. @CaymanS
Under the heading How stupid is Net Double Bogey, you asked, Why add meaningless complication to scoring.
Firstly, if you don't understand something, find out about it before labelling it as stupid and meaningless.
Then if you want to understand net double bogey, just read post #3.
And once you understand it, find out the reason for its being used as the basis of handicapping which essentially is to avoid a player's handicap which is supposed to be a measure of his demonstrated ability from being distorted by exceptionally high scores as a result of blowing up at a particular hole.
Finally, form an opinion as to its value.

[Newby]

Just enter gross hole by hole scores like the rest of the world. Simples

[BlackDiamondPar5]

I don't like NDB for a variety of reasons but ESC also had it's flaws as well. NDB if done properly may be more accurate but also more error prone (fat fingering) and laziness. Also because you'll need your card in hand to post (if hole by hole) and it will take a bit longer if posting hole by hole, this may facilitate some excuses for not posting, which is not good. But it is what it is since the New World Order imposed this upon us.

[Newby]

" this may facilitate some excuses for not posting, which is not good."

It's been good enough for the rest of the world for eons, perhaps its just laziness

[davep043]

From what I heard at a recent Handicap seminar, the 2019 GHIN app (used by a large majority of us in the US) will make hole-by-hole posting available on every platform (course computer, website, and app). Based on the Handicap Rules strong recommendation that HbH be encouraged, my guess is that the default score entry will be HbH, and you'll have to navigate around to enter your scores any other way. I think when faced with this, people will adapt pretty quickly. The ones who have always looked for excuses will continue to look for excuses, the ones who post diligently will continue to do that.

[Newby]

As it doesn't eat into the time for another beer

[bladehunter]

Net double bogey ? So triple bogey for most ?

Hole by hole ? So relying on memory ? Which leads to plausible deniability. What I’m getting at is most post scores later on the app. And usually one card per group. So... I guess doable. But what’s the purpose ? To make sure net double bogey is used ?
@davep043 I agree for what it’s worth. I’ll figure out how to make it work. What I don’t like is that it gives those who look for excuses not to post , more excuses not to post. “ I can’t recall what I made on half the holes “ or “ which holes do I get shots on , I didn’t have a card to look at “. Or “ I don’t have time to enter 18 scores “. And on and on. I hear excuses now and it’s a 3 second operation.

[davep043]

You talk about gangs of people playing and competing together. Make it a point to talk to your group, as soon as you get to the clubhouse, and enter your scores immediately. You can read the scores hole by hole to one-another to make it easier. THEN you can hand the card to whoever is keeping the scores, you said someone does that because each of you is commonly paired with someone in a different group. Eliminate the excuses. Your group of sandbaggers gets away with sandbagging because nobody requires them to actually post scores. A new handicap system is going to do nothing to change that, so complaints and concerns over the new system itself seem pretty inconsequential.

[nsxguy]

No so simple for those players who are used to tallying up their (ESC) score after the round, tossing their scorecard in the garbage,and entering it when they get home. Add to that that in most groups of 4 there is seldom more than 2 cards kept, sometimes only 1. Who gets to take it home ?

Behaviors of MANY years isn't all that easy to change, especially when the old behavior is still acceptable.

That and, in the case of a club secretary entering his club's scores,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Sheesh, my old club had between 20 and 30 players most days so the secretary "only" had to post 20 gross scores. I can imagine telling them now they have to enter 20 h-b-h scores. Some clubs in the area had as many as 120 players. I'm thinking most of them will be entering the same gross scores as always.

But I could be wrong.

[sdandrea]

I guess I'm spoiled. I play the same 3 or 4 courses about 4 days a week and most of our games are team low net hole by hole scores. Consequently, I have memorized my course handicaps and which 6 or 7 holes I don't get a stroke on. I guess I understand why a segment of the playing public is not "handicap savvy" if they're not using net hole scores in their games. They can learn, tho.

[nsxguy]

Any stats on usage right now ? What percentage of players post in what way ? I guess I can see {shudder} more & more people using their phones on the course to record their h-b-h scores. Hopefully they'll figure out a way to enter them without holding up play.

A group I play with has some sort of online updating of scores and other tournament info so that by accessing it during the round one can see where they stand, at least via "closest to the pins" and if a skin will hold up (at least in relation to others who keep score in real time). But these guys are also the ones you have to tell "You're up",,,,,, because they're looking at their phones.

Personally I won't use the phone on the course for a number of reasons. Possible damage from dropping it and/or rain. Simple annoyance of having to pick it up, get it going and using it time after time. A safe place to put it to avoid damaging it. These things are expensive.

Other than that, as I mentioned above, old habits die hard and I don't know of anybody who wants to do more "work" rather than less so I don't see entering only a gross score as dwindling in usage all that much. If there's a way to enter only the gross score, even if it takes a click or 2, they'll find it.

I've never seen the "course computer" or the APP. The website, of course, I have. As I could enter scores without logging in ("dangerous" actually) I never bothered with signing up. Only signed up recently and found the h-b-h option.

At the moment, I note my gross score (adjusted) and throw the card away. When I get home I enter it, not always the same day (but I WILL make the same day attempt going forward). I don't see that changing

[Augster]

Mountain/molehill.

If you don’t have a triple bogey, this doesn’t even add in. When a player makes a triple, all he has to do is look to see if he gets a shot there. If he does, he posts the triple for score. If not, he posts a double.

So, as of 1/1/20 in the US, just play and post your normal game. Unless you make a triple or worse. When that happens, take a look at the card to see the score you have to post.

It’s really, really simple.

[nsxguy]

My friend, you play Stableford all the time. Don't you keep score ? If so, you HAVE to know where strokes fall for each player. How hard can NDB be ?

Truth be told, NDB is going to be a little bit more work.

One need not be concerned about ESC or NDB until someone goes OVER double bogey on a hole. The major change in "mechanics" is the hole the score is made on.

Here (USA - elsewhere around the world will depend on the date their association implements the new WHS),

In 2019 once someone DOES go over DB you need to think about his course handicap and apply the appropriate ESC reduction, if any. Which hole is was on is NOT relevant.

In 2020, once someone goes over DB the hole the score is made on IS relevant. One needs to see if he gets 1 or more strokes on THAT hole and apply the appropriate reduction, if any. This method requires either recording the strokes and strokes holes before the round somehow OR checking the handicap hole # to the player's course handicap to see whether an adjustment is appropriate (and how much of one).

So just a touch more work. But an easier calculation. No need to remember max DB for a single digit CH, max 7 for 10-19, max 8 for 20-29, etc. Add to that you will still be able to enter a gross (NDB adjusted of course) score to the system.