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"Net Double Bogey" How stupid is this?


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Sample size me: I play half my golf in the US and half in Europe. No one is really sure what my handicap is. Under the US system of count everything its a 6.9. Under the Euro system of count predeclared or comp rounds its a 9.5. So it would be useful for me. I realize I am not everyone, but there is some logic/value in attempting to reduce the regional variation in the rules of golf.

 

With regards to the OP, having used both systems I was originally confused by EGA/Suomen Golfliitto (Finnish Golf Union) handicapping with stableford and NDB. But once I got used to getting my strokes off a chart from the first tee and marking up my card, it was pretty simple thereafter. And entering hole-by-hole was and is slightly inconvenient, but seeing how each number increased my point count (making an eagle and knowing 4 points would light up when you entered it) sort of took away the annoyance of the extra time it takes. I am going to miss the stableford points of EGA handicapping for that reason.

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Mountain/molehill. If you don’t have a triple bogey, this doesn’t even add in. When a player makes a triple, all he has to do is look to see if he gets a shot there. If he does, he posts the triple f

This seems to be his biggest complaint, the USGA decision to utilize (CR-Par) in the Course Handicap calculation. To me, this simply makes the standard adjustment for tournaments into the standard ev

@bladehunter You asked about how to explain this change to a group that was used to dealing with the old way of dealing with differing tees in a single competition. This is what I would tell them. 1

I recently moved to FL from NJ where I was a member of the same club for 24 years. There, we always negotiated strokes prior to a cash game based off of our history of playing together using current HC only as a baseline. We also played a four-ball at approx 80 or 90% off the low, again all negotiated. I suppose the underlying message was distrust of the system as well as distrust of the individual...lol!

Now in FL I play with a large group of players of varying abilities. We play all matches at 100% course HC. You are what you are. At times, based on having gotten to know the guys and their abilities, I perceive certain players having "the edge," other times I feel advantaged. In any case, there's an ebb & flow to it and complaints are rare.

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The way I read your calculations, you're claiming that the 40,000 golfers who responded positively are the ONLY golfers in the world who support the WHS, and the remaining 24,960,000 are all against it, every one of them? That somehow the 52,000 responses included every single golfer who supports the WHS? I'm no statistician, but I know that statistics don't work that way. And while I'm also certain that the "real" number of supporters isn't 76% of the total golfing population, I'd be willing to bet that its not much below half.

I support it, but I wouldn't say I felt an urgent NEED to unify handicap systems. We were getting along reasonably well with our individual systems, but I think unification will be a positive thing for the great world of golf. The current changes are a big step in that direction.

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Couldn’t agree more.

The existing rigour of our current system forms the basis of the trust we have in it which in turn underpins the competitive heartbeat of our golf culture. Moving to more formats and the assumptions needed for accurate scoring, which seem poorly understood, may well undermine the trust then we will have lost something which many value.

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I always thought it was unfair for lower handicappers complements of ESC were able to in essence post lower scores due to max score on each hole. Always thought it was a way to keep high handicappers high and lower handicappers an advantage on the score card.

New max scoring is simpler or more equitable in my opinion.

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@davep043 @Colin L , I wasn't saying that all the non-responses would be against it. However there is no way the respondents were not strongly biased toward "supportive." As I said, these respondents are likely already actively engaged in HC management or the system itself, such as; club pros, assistants, HC committees etc--- all with much closer affiliation to the USGA and handicapping process than the general membership. This bias therefore resulted in a non-random survey. As example, my district only burred the survey ONCE in their bi-weekly email that usually contains nothing more than my HC rev update and some local tournament info--- basically it's a routine email that doesn't scream "open me because I have something out of the ordinary and important for you". If the USGA wanted to get more unbiased feedback they could have sent a separate email soliciting input. They could have put a banner on the GHIN app (like they just did) to inform us there was an important survey for us. They could have distributed posters to be placed in every pro shop informing us of an important survey.
The other bias in this survey that concerns me is acquiescence bias and possibly asking leading questions. While I haven't seen the actual survey, I don't know if the questions were leading or not but I'm suspicious. I do know the USGA did say they told members that they'd been working on a global handicap for several years as part of the survey content. This will skew the results as respondents will be more likely to just "go along." Also if you don't inform people that their world will change as a result of such system they are also likely to just "go along." This leads to more flawed survey results.
Bottom line--- While I have no problem with the mathematical changes to the HC formula I don't like NDB. Something similar was abandoned by the USGA in 1993 because it was problematic and now we are repeating it again just to compromise with RoW. I don't like hole by hole posting as a solution because it requires everyone put their hands on the card--- it will be both a willful and accidental excuse to not post. I also don't like the prospect of pre-registration either. This will give baggers an excuse to not post good scores by simply not preregistering rounds in the weeks leading up to tournaments. Or saying, "hey my handicap has risen up to a point I like it" so now I'm not going to post any rounds till after the tournament. This fly's in the face of decades of "you play, you post." Policing this will be tougher than it is now. At least today we know we post everything and peers can easily police each other. In the future that could become perilously murky. So to me these changes and compromise are not worth a WHS and will only benefit a fractional minority.
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"Sample size me: I play half my golf in the US and half in Europe. No one is really sure what my handicap is. Under the US system of count everything its a 6.9. Under the Euro system of count predeclared or comp rounds its a 9.5. So it would be useful for me. I realize I am not everyone, but there is some logic/value in attempting to reduce the regional variation in the rules of golf."

You could post all of your scores in both systems and use the GHIN handicap for the US and CONGU for EU.

BTW, under the new system the rules are different in each region. So which will you use?

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@BlackDiamondPar5 says:
"@davep043 @Colin L , I wasn't saying that all the non-responses would be against it. However there is no way the respondents were not strongly biased toward "supportive." As I said, these respondents are likely already actively engaged in HC management or the system itself, such as; club pros, assistants, HC committees etc--- all with much closer affiliation to the USGA and handicapping process than the general membership. This bias therefore resulted in a non-random survey."
A non-random survey is substantially different from your math-based claim that "They made this change based on 0.16% of the golfers in the world". I've said I agree that its probably not 76% of all golfers, or even all golfers who maintain a handicap, but the folks in favor are a very significant percentage of the whole. Its almost certainly "not less than 1%", which is what you claimed.
I also understand that ESC was instituted to a large degree because the previous max score was misunderstood and improperly applied by lots of golfers. But now we have the computerized ability to enter hole by hole scores and have the computer accurately apply the NDB limit. For those who are a little confused, but actually care about doing things right, its the perfect solution. If you understand what you're doing, you can submit total adjusted scores. As with the old max system, as with ESC, so it will be with the new NDB, those who care will find a way to do it right. Those who don't care will continue to screw it up, as they always have.
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FWIW, I think the WHS is a positive move. If I were the king of golf I would change the system so that there is an 'attested handicap' and a social handicap where the social handicap would be pretty much what we have now and the 'attested handicap' would be one where only more tightly controlled play (e.g., attested scores, the existence of a relevant committee that actually makes daily decisions, cards turned in, etc). But no one in the world (including me) wants me to be the king of golf.

I play weekly with a group of 15-20 guys and we almost always play 4 person team games of some flavor (lots of Stableford scoring but not always). At age 70 it would not be unusual for me to be the youngest guy in a foursome by 10 years. All of these guys know how ESC works (today - maybe not tomorrow), and have a far better than average understanding of the RoG (but not like the typical avid poster in this section of WRX). We have a spreadsheet with the 6 courses that we regularly play loaded (slope/CR by tee, every hole/tee with yardage and hole handicap, etc). When the handicaps are updated someone (usually me) updates the indexes in the player database portion of the spreadsheet. On Thursday night someone (usually me) loads the game and the players and prints out scorecards for each cart (this includes strokes). It includes the capability to play mixed tees although these days no one (including me) typically chooses to play back to the middle tees. We have never been a 'back tee group', although have had some golfers who could easily handle that back when we were younger.

So here is how we are going to operate in the transition to the WHS.

I will grab the 12/31 handicaps today I will be altering our spreadsheet to accommodate CR-Par for strokes, but not for play this Friday as we have not yet really made the transition to the WHS (no WHS indexes are available)For play this Friday we will continue to use current ESC. We don't have proper indexes calculated using the WHS so that will just be the way it is for this Friday For play beyond that date I am NOT going to try to get the proper indexes loaded on Friday morning before play so the spreadsheet will be correct (re: daily index) - will still do that Thursday nightWe will be complying with NDB but may not have the correct indexes (therefore strokes) on the scorecard. Guys are free to make their own decision but no one is going to be backtracking to be sure that NDB is consistent with today's index (IMHO). Guys post their own scores, but I will not be doing four scorecards (one for each player) as no one has stated an interest in posting HbH so no one needs to take home a scorecard. In our group we settle up on the course, and go home. There is no gathering at the bar, etc. There probably won't even be a gathering of all the players, as it would be common for the 1st team in (if there were clearly out of the money) to just go home except for that team's captain (who has that team's money)I will update indexes on some schedule probably depending on my own schedule My job is to do an initial evaluation of us moving to Golf Genius for all scoring. But there are guys in our group who don't even carry a Smart Phone with a data plan (that would have been me 12 months ago). I am not optimistic. That is now it will work for us, FWIW.

dave

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@DaveLeeNC says
For play beyond that date I am NOT going to try to get the proper indexes loaded on Friday morning before play so the spreadsheet will be correct (re: daily index) - will still do that Thursday nightWe will be complying with NDB but may not have the correct indexes (therefore strokes) on the scorecard. Guys are free to make their own decision but no one is going to be backtracking to be sure that NDB is consistent with today's index (IMHO).Guys post their own scores, but I will not be doing four scorecards (one for each player) as no one has stated an interest in posting HbH so no one needs to take home a scorecard. In our group we settle up on the course, and go home. There is no gathering at the bar, etc. There probably won't even be a gathering of all the players, as it would be common for the 1st team in (if there were clearly out of the money) to just go home except for that team's captain (who has that team's money)I will update indexes on some schedule probably depending on my own scheduleJust a couple of comments, some of them informed by the VSGA seminar I attended.
First, you essentially function as the Committee for your competitions. As such, you have the authority to choose which day's handicaps to use for each competition. So you're doing it exactly right, set up cards in advance, with HI numbers from a day of your choosing. There's no requirement to get new handicaps and print scorecards on the morning of a competition.
Second, using "2-day-old" handicaps for calculating Net Double isn't exactly right, but it's unlikely to make a substantial difference in handicaps. The difference is likely to be no more than one, and its not really likely that a player's "blow-up" will happen on the one hole where his strokes have changed. And for most players, there will be no movement of handicap between the time you print your scorecards and the day you play.
I think you're doing all of this as correctly as anyone should expect.
Last, I'd be interested in learning which courses you play regularly. I'm approaching retirement age myself, strongly considering a move to that part of the world, and I might be looking for a good group of guys to play with. If you're willing, a PM might be best, and if not, I understand completely.
Happy New Year to one and all!
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Sounds like a fine compromise to me. I’d vote you king of golf in a second with common sense ideas like that.

 

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Bottom line, I would like to see each course have a simple chart in the pro shop along the lines of, At this course: If your index is ..., your course handicap here is ....

I always come at these debates from the side of the public/muni golfer who might like to have a handicap and is just not into it enough to understand it and do the right things. For that golfer, the simpler the better. That's where I came from and where a lot of my friends still are. Thinking about the NDB thing, it's fine, as long as you know your course handicap. In my circles, people don't know it. I joined a new club last year, entered my scores, knew my index from the emails I get from the district association, and still didn't know my course hcp. Nor did I know it when I played somewhere else. When visiting courses, we play gross scores with skins, and just negotiate strokes since some of the guys don't maintain indexes. When I entered the club championship in late summer, I finally found out my course hcp was 1 higher than my index. :) Call me a dummy, but I know I'm more knowledgeable than a lot of people I play with.

 

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Bottom line, I would like to see each course have a simple chart in the pro shop along the lines of, At this course: If your index is ..., your course handicap here is ....

We over here have been told that all US courses have such a chart or notice board. England Golf has done a deal with a course furniture supplier to produce such notice boards at cost for all clubs in England.

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I know that in Virginia, the VSGA was planning to release just such charts to each golf club to use, I imagine that most jurisdictions will do the same. Most golf courses have posted these same charts for a long time, but the new ones will add the (new) adjustment for (Course Rating - Par) for each tee. My I ask, how did you enter scores over the past year? Did you use a website, a phone app, maybe a handicap terminal in a pro shop? Each of those platforms will almost certainly offer (not require) hole by hole posting in 2020. You won't need to do the net double calculation, you won't need to know your Course Handicap, just enter your raw scores and the system will make any corrections required.

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