"Net Double Bogey" How stupid is this?

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Did you mean CH= HI x slope/113 + (CR-par)? I don’t actually know the new formula, but both seem pretty simple.

[bladehunter]

So I go to the GHIN app. See a CH calculator. And my course handicap doesn’t change from 100-155 slope. At 99 it drops a shot. And it matches my cap rounded up to the nearest whole number. ( 1.7 goes to 2 from 100-155)

 

change the cap to 10.5 in the calculator and the course handicap jumps all over every coupe points of slope. Maybe I just don’t know everyone else uses it ?

I move it back down to 0.7 where it stayed all summer and it stays at 1 no matter the slope. Moves to 0 around a 70 slope.

 

Im thinking I don’t want my group to know about this if they don’t already. I have some “10s who are 5s “ that would have a 12 CH . Their sandbags would get heavier.

[James the Hogan Fan]

Out of curiosity why not just cap scores for a hole at gross triple for everyone? I know caps higher than say 25 will be hitting that limit often, which I guess would compress the range of handicaps but otherwise, why not?

[rogolf]

Yes, that is what I meant - apologies and original post corrected! HNY.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

If you play with the same group all the time then just use your HI and add strokes to the appropriate holes for match or stroke play. Not official, but simpler for tracking.

Stroke just use the calculator to adjust the score. Most people enter the raw score with the course, then GHIN calculates the rest. I don’t really do this either, all my HI are calculated by my club when I turn in my scores. So... you all know a lot more...

[mitchl]

I join the chorus that doesn't like the NDB. I don't have a problem for me to play that way, but it does bring in more variables than I had to be concerned with before. I also regularly score via my watch or by golfshot hole-by-hole tracking putts too, so I don't mind doing that.

But as one who has been on the tournament and handicap committees - I hate it and it will be more of a problem. ESC was misapplied often, even by frequent golfers. I had been told by sub-10 players multiple times that my max (as a 15) was a triple, not a 7. -- and yes, now it is just net double bogey for everyone - that is fairly simple to communicate - but what's my CH today (as opposed to yesterday) and for this course I don't play often, what's the handicap on this hole. If the goal was to make it simple, just go max triple for under 20, and max quad over 20 index. Simple and fast. Easy to understand.

 

One thing I LOVE about the new system is building in adjustment to par into the course handicap so we can do away with tee adjustments. Nothing less fun than having a geezer screaming about someone taking his strokes away for the tournament (which is why I always adjusted off the senior tees instead of the most common tee or the back tee). But the geezers are going to be screaming come Jan 7th when they see their new CHs! Hell, I'm losing 3 strokes on the bogey tees on one of our courses (CR 69, Par 72). The seniors are going to see their CHs drop by 5.

[Newby]

Edit: Ignore. New thread started

[Colin L]

I suppose if the same points keep coming up it's fair enough to keep coming up with the same responses!

Other parts of the golfing world have been accustomed to NDB for long enough and I don' t hear of it causing any difficulties. It isn't relevant in stroke play and in formats where there are legitimate reasons for not having holed out it only matters on some holes. If you are playing well enough it won't crop up at all in a whole round. It's never a problem our knowing where we get a handicap stroke wherever we play. The par and stroke index are on the scorecard and usually on tee signs. You tend to know the stroke allocation on your own track without reference to a card although I always have a spare card in my bag because of a well-founded lack of confidence in my memory

As to the CR-Par causing large deductions from your CH for certain sets of tees, that I have learned seems to be the product of setting par for your longest course and using the same par all the way down to your shortest. Setting a par appropriate to each course avoids that. For instance, the difference between par and the Course Ratings of the tees at my club are for men 0, 1 and 1, and for women 1, 2 and 2. While the obvious answer is to change the pars of your different sets of tees, I do now understand there is a cultural and business imperative in the USA to retain a high par for even a relatively very short course and so I guess your members just have put up with "losing" maybe 5 strokes off their CH. Suck it up, as is said. For my own part, I'm easy about continuing applying adjustments involved in mixed tee and mixed gender games - our members seem used to it. We do, however, still have to counter the occasional sexist reference from some of the men in mixed gender matches to giving the women "courtesy strokes".

 

[Halebopp]

While knowing my bias towards NDB having used it all my life for handicapping purposes, I struggle to see why it would be such an issue.

 

There's no need to know what your course handicap is, entering the gross scores hole by hole is all you need to do if you can't simply return the scorecard to the clubhouse and let the staff handle it. I've never played in an event that mandated picking up when you hit NDB, or 0 points in Stableford and the vast majority of my competitive rounds have been Stableford. But if you want to pick up after a certain number of strokes, you can make it at 11 and be perfectly safe. A player whose course handicap is over 54 gets 4 strokes on some hole(s), so a NDB on a par 5 is 5 (par) + 4 (net par)+ 2 (NDB) = 11. Of course, you could also check your course handicap at the clubhouse and if it's 18 or less, the safe number is 8, 9 if your course handicap is 19-36 and 10 for 37-54.

 

(Personally I would find it odd my maximum score for handicapping could be double bogey one day and a set number the next depending on the course and set of tees I'm playing. But even so I would learn it and it wouldn't really matter as it doesn't affect me on the course)

[KevCarter]

Blade, here is an example of how much handicaps can change based on the course rating. This is taking 0.7 on 3 courses in my area,

 

[bladehunter]

Hmm. Is that calculated from last year or this coming year ? And how does it differ from the calculator on the ghin app which didn’t move? Real question.

 

As in ok I see a plus 6 for a 110 slope course there. I can’t go back to the ghin app ( I just tried ) to screen shot it , but moving the sliding scale it didn’t change .

[KevCarter]

The spreadsheet is calculated using the 2020 system. The GHIN app may not update for a few days, I'm not sure. The course rating is now used in adjusting the CH along with the slope...

[dpb5031]

I think you need the course rating for a given set of tees, not just the slope rating

[bladehunter]

Wow. So I’m basically about to drop . Great. I guess if the others drop it’s a wash But I’m sure there’s a catch somewhere

thanks for the info. I really do think it’s time I stop being curious about this and just slink back into the shadows and only keep a cap for qualifying and progress gauging purposes . I just have no idea how I’d ever trust something with so many variables. Not trying to be argumentative, but until I’m Part of an organization with someone leading that knows what’s going on , it’s just crazy talk to me. And I don’t have the patience , or brain power to be that guy.

[KevCarter]

I don't think you are any different from most scratch players. You just want to play the game and let your sticks do the talking. Nothing wrong with that. Really no reason for you to dig into this stuff if not a high level of interest. I just need to try to stay on top of it for my members and guests...

[DaveLeeNC]

@bladehunter You asked about how to explain this change to a group that was used to dealing with the old way of dealing with differing tees in a single competition. This is what I would tell them.
1) Everybody's CH is going to be calculated differently than before
2) The new calculation is going to be the old (unadjusted) CH handicap calculation with a new adjustment added every time to everybody (no exceptions)
3) This new adjustment is calculated as CourseRating - CoursePar. That term is added to 'the old CH' calculation. This means that if you are playing a course with a Rating way below par you will get a big reduction. If you are playing a course with a Rating equal to Par you get no reduction. If you are playing a course with a Rating above Par you get more strokes. I would think that people would understand that.
Then I would pick the two sets of tees that are most commonly played at your club and compare CH's 2019 and CH's 2020 for those tees.
I would further point out that using the 2020 system shooting 'Net Par', will mean that you have approximately shot your handicap from any set of tees.
dave

[Roadking2003]

Helebopp:: Also, don't you see any value in actually building a better handicapping system, putting aside the aspect of making handicaps universally comparable?

 

Absolutely. I support efforts to improve handicap systems. I think the changes we (USGA) implemented today are a step in the right direction. I'm not sure it will help with sandbagging problems since there are many ways to disguise sandbagging.

[GoGoErky]

Don’t feel bad. I know several golfers who were clueless about course hdcp and only knew/used it at their hole course that they play 3x/week

[Roadking2003]

Many do. And the math is so simple you could produce the chart in 15 minutes using Excel.

[Shilgy]

Exactly...

 

Blade, we all read about your struggles getting your club to adjust for tee played. The new system makes it simple as your days course handicap is based on which set of tees you play. The calculation is the same as it was yesterday with the added feature of adjusting that number with the difference between course rating and par. So if you were a zero course handicap(CH) on 12-31-19 and your handicap index had no change then starting today you also add or subtract from that zero. So if on a par 72 you played the back tees rated at 74.0 you would be a 2 CH For that days play. Conversely if you played a club event that played the front tees rated at 68.0 you would be a +4 CH that day. Easy. To help explain it to others remember the different tee played adjustment from last year? Note in my example the difference between the front tees and back tees course rating in my example was 6? 68-74? And the difference in your course handicap from each set of tees was....6! So no more adjusting based on tees played in an event from different tees as your course handicap(CH) will already do that every day. My understanding is that the new GHIN app will do all of that for you. Rather than just index and slope the app will ask what course and set of tees you are playing that day and give you the appropriate CH for the day with the adjustment already made.

 

Hope you all had a great holidays!

[Roadking2003]

Using HI instead of CH screws higher cappers more and more as the Slope goes up.

[Roadking2003]

Colin L: "While the obvious answer is to change the pars of your different sets of tees, I do now understand there is a cultural and business imperative in the USA to retain a high par for even a relatively very short course and so I guess your members just have put up with "losing" maybe 5 strokes off their CH. "

 

You keep posting this as if it's factual. It's not.

 

There is no "cultural and business imperative in the USA to retain a high par for even a relatively very short course"

[Newby]

Then why is it done?

[Roadking2003]

I think you misunderstand the new CH calculation. There has always been an adjustment for playing from different tees. Last year GHIN did the calculation for you and it added strokes for the players using longer tees. The new system subtracts strokes from the players using forward tees. The end result is quit similar.

 

So no, the young hotshots will not be getting more strokes from the old guys.

 

 

[DaveLeeNC]

I have never observed a particularly strong US tendency to mis-rate Par on courses from the back tees (there are exceptions, however). Mostly there is (in my mind) a reluctance to have par be less than 70. I have never felt or observed par 70 (or 71) courses being viewed as inferior.

However, there is a STRONG expectation that forward tees will be shorter versions of the longer tees. And that means the same par.

dave

[davep043]

I want to make sure I understand what you mean. Last year, if you used any app (including (GHIN), your course handicap was calculated based on Index and Slope. If you had a competition with players going off different tees, there was a procedure to adjust handicaps based on differences in Course Rating, and when a club was using the USGA Tournament software, that adjustment was made automatically. Under the USGA choices for the WHS, that adjustment will be reflected in a player's Course Handicap, so that no additional adjustment will be required for players going off different tees as long as par is the same.

In some ways, this will ease the job of competition Committees and golf professions running competitions. "Forward tee players" will indeed see their every-day Course Handicaps decrease, but once that happens, they'll become accustomed to it. Previously, they'd lose strokes only for competitions, and that was more problematic.

[DaveLeeNC]

FWIW, YEARS ago when I was the "Games Guy" for our MGA, I was pushing to allow golfers to move up from the middle tees (at their discretion). I got lots of pushback on this, but that did begin to change a bit as the average age of the group was rising each year. What pushed things over the top was when I suggested (yet again) the change and proposed that the forward tees be the basis for CH in MGA play. That way all those guys arguing against that would suddenly get a couple more strokes (no one likes to take a net bogey in a team event). That argument really was helpful. These days almost all MGA golfers play the forward tees (but not all, AFAIK).

dave

ps. Gonna be a bunch more net bogeys this year

[Halebopp]

I agree with Dave about the expectation of forward tees being easier to play. Of course that is completely due to the fact most of the time stroke play scores are counted against par rather than the absolute score. Thus a 270-yard par 4 is "easier" than the same hole from 230 yards as a par 3. In absolute terms the shorter hole is naturally easier but when compared to par, it's the other way around.

 

Absolute score usually only comes up in the final results of the Masters and when looking at your scores after the front nine or a round when tallying up your score. My experience is that every other time people think of their scores in relation to par. Maybe it's different in the UK?

 

[Roadking2003]

I'm not aware that it is done at all. If it is, I've never experienced it.

 

I've never played a short course (less than 6000 yards) that was a par 72.

 

One thing that is common here is building courses long enough to be a legitimate par 72.

 

[Roadking2003]

Correct. My group plays from two different tees every time we play. GHIN calculated the CH for all of us and included two extra strokes for those of us playing off the longer tees.

Example:2019 GHIN system:

HI 9.1 playing white tees (70.0, 131) has a CH of 11

HI 8.6 playing blue tees (71.8, 134) has a CH of 12 due to the tee adjustment.

2020 GHIN system;

HI 9.1 playing white tees has a CH of 9

HI 8..6 playing blue tees has a CH of 10

 

The gap will not always be the same but it will be close.