Pepsi Duck's "9-to-3" Thread...COVID Golf (#111)...!

[Krt22]

"Lead with the right elbow" is a specific feel for a specific flaw (as were many of Monte's older youtube video). The efficient swing is a step by step break down of the entire swing with numerous drills/feels to accomplish the key elements of the swing. Less a refinement of his approach and more an evolution.

 

IMO all this stuff about mental, visualization, etc etc etc is fluff. You don't go from striping it on the range to struggling to break 100 without some major glaring swing flaw manifesting itself. In reality you likely just manage it on the range when there isnt pressure, and once the pressure is there its enough to throw you off just enough to go off the rails. I bet that major swing flaw hasn't changed much at all in the past few years, which is largely why your long search for some intangible cure to your swing woes has largely been fruitless.

[Hawkeye77]

So many reasons that is such a good segment.

[PepsiDuck]

"Wow, if what you get out of the Efficient Swing video series boils down to lead with right elbow, your thread title "diary of mad man" is spot on."

Not quite. I said that they offer what some (including me) might interpret as "conflicting" information. Or at the very least, inconsistent information. And I used the leading with the right elbow concept (one of Monte's staples for many years) as an example. So my question is, does that seminal concept of leading with the right elbow still apply with the new Efficient Swing approach? Or can you toss out those things out, e.g., left arm off the chest, lead with the right elbow, get the humerus toward, etc., when applying Efficient Swing, since everything after the transition should be "automatic"?

I can't be the only person who wonders the same thing....

Great video segment though. I miss those days when Golf Channel Academy actually featured good instruction.

[PepsiDuck]

I agree that it's less a mental issue and more a swing flaw issue. And like you said, I probably just get lucky on the range.

[Krt22]

Not lucky per say, it takes a lot more skill than you give yourself credit to property compensate for some flaws. It’s just easy enough to get in a groove and keep things timed with a repeatable lie and no pressure. I’m in the same boat, I’ll be a range hero, but if i get complacent the same old swing faults will reappear. I can lose 1.5-2clubs of length and start hosel rocketing shots when things go haywire.

You have tons of athleticism, tons of golf knowledge, just need to buckle down and address the core issues I’m sure you know very well by now.

 

[bortass]

My experience with lessons was much different than yours. I saw the same guy for years working on my swing. He got me from being an instaslice to hitting a draw. I would buy sets of lessons from him and schedule them as needed. It wasn't a weekly thing. earlier on the lessons were closer together but as I improved they started to spread out some. Sometimes the lesson would vary as well, for example, I would sometimes throw a short game lesson in the mix. I think something that helped was the fact I was working with one guy I trusted and I ignored other teachings for the most part.

Don't get me wrong, I'd watch Monte youtube videos and read about the swing but what I worked on was what we covered in lessons. Sure I'd take some stuff I saw or read and try it out, I'd even talk to the pro about it. The key is I wasn't all over the place with what to work on or swing thoughts. There is no magic bullet in my experience.

The goal tends to be a repeatable swing that you can play with. That's hard to do if you're taking a bunch of different ideas about the swing and trying to mash it all together. The goal becomes more refined as one gets better but you should be taking something that already works and making it better.

Another thing to consider is do you take your lessons onto the course? For me that was always a bad idea. I have found, for me, that leaving the lessons on the range, and just swinging the club on the course yielded the best results. YMMV of course.

Good luck!

[xrt99]

Sigh...I'll take the bait, again.

TECHNICAL: Can you repeatedly hit 50-75 yard shots straight and with good contact? If the answer is no, take a lesson that focuses on setup and this motion, and do that for a year. If yes, move up to the distance that you begin to struggle and work on that. Consistent wedges and short irons are the hallmark of low handicap play.

MENTAL: I'll echo what others are saying and agree that your issue is largely mental, but not in the way you may think. You seem to be an analytical type that sees a rabbit hole and dives head first. You like to challenge the information that is presented to you. There's nothing wrong with that of course; but when it comes down to actually playing golf, you have to let it go. Indecision, especially when injected into athleticism, is a recipe for failure.

We have limited time to do the things that we want. If you truly want to get better, you have to understand that the concept of perfection is unattainable. You will have to commit to something for an extended period of time and understand that while it may not be the 'best' possible thing for you in any given moment, consistent dedication to the path you choose will pay dividends over time. You may actually get somewhere.

[Lefthook]

OP,

"Although I don't deny the value of video, especially during formal instruction, I am not sure how valuable it is for the average golfer trying to figure things out. Some respond well to seeing their swing, while others (like me), go to a dark dark place... Is there even any value in the 'feel the swing and see the shot approach' anymore?"

 

If you want to change your swing in a fundamental way there's absolutely no value in "feel the swing and see the shot" aproach. The feels you have are married to your current swing and is totally unfit to guide you when you try to change.

Based on what I've read so far in this thread you have been trying to use your feels to guide you in your swing changes, but that is a dead end. In order to change you have to ignore what the changes feel like and just try to do moves that has the right looks - even if it feels like it will be impossible to hit a ball that way.

For us mortals it takes considerable time and effort to change a motion pattern, and even longer before it starts to feel "right". And old word of wisdom is to learn feel from mechanics, but don't try to learn mechanics from feel.

It seem like your learning approach is a combination of feel and analytics. Analysis is OK to sort out the problems and decide on which changes that needs to be done. But the real work is not analytical at all, and the feels are only misguiding you if you have fundamental swing flaws. The real work is pretty boring and repetitive frustrating at times, because your body and brain will be aching to swing the way you've been doing for years.

It takes drilling, slow motion, video mirror work. And perhaps even still work.

Can you pose a picture perfect grip, stance, setup angles etc? I don't mean perfect for you, but perfect for the golfer you would like to be. Never mind whether you feel as if you can't hit a ball from there. Just pose it. And be precise with how everything looks, because the looks of things is your only guide here.

Can you pose a perfect impact position, a perfect p6, a perfect p5, a perfect p4 and so forth.. If you can, you can start to connect the dots. Slowly at first. Then build up speed gradually while keeping your eyes (mirror & video) on how it looks. If you stick to the plan and manage to keep the form as you progress towards full speed, your swing feels will change - and eventually you can go hard after the ball with a motion you couldn't produce a while a go.

You need to fake it 'till you make it.

I went through a big swing change some 10 years ago, under slicefixer's guidance. It was difficult and quite tough and took me more than a year. Afterwards I played my best golf ever. But also my worst golf in years. It was still worthwhile for me, but doing these changes are not worthwhile for everybody.

If you don't want to go through such a process you're probably much better off with quitting the range sessions and playing as much golf as you can instead. I've seen a lot of funny swings breaking 80 regularly. It seems like people with an ok coordination can get consistent results out of almost any golf swing if they play enough golf. Bashing balls on the range with a mediocre swing only help those who have just picked up the game. After a couple of years it's a waste of time unless you do it because it's something you enjoy doing.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

The issue with video is you need to review it and interpret what you did wrong. That and often, position doesn’t tell you the entire story. You’d need to look at multiple frames over and over to see what your not doing right.

Agree it’s far better than “feel”, but much worse than an interactive experience you get with an instructor or equivalent.

[PepsiDuck]

 

Technical: On the range, for the most part, yes. But when I'm on the course, I sometimes either get a little antsy at transition and either hit it fat or thin. I'll push back a little bit about the "do that for a year" idea. Do we realistically do something for an entire year before we move onto something else? Should golf instruction be time-based or results-based?

Mental: Good points. My first response is to challenge something if I find it doesn't work. But I'm realizing that it often doesn't work because I'm simply not doing it right, as I was taught.

And it's interesting you used the word "perfection"...I don't know that I'm seeking anything close to perfection; serviceable is good enough for me. And it's tough to describe the range of quality of my ball-striking on the internets: my good shots are generally quite good; and my bad shots are really bad. I don't hit very many in between. So it's less about seeking perfection in my swing and more about reducing that bad range, whether it's fewer bad shots or bad shots that are less bad...

[PepsiDuck]

So I have my initial intake lesson tomorrow morning, so I thought I'd post a short DTL video of what I'm bringing to the table as I chronicle this little journey. Because why not.

[CasualLie]

A few small flaws, but nothing crazy. Post a driver swing because the iron swing begs the question, how are you not breaking 80 regularly with that swing?!

[xrt99]

Haha, love the image.

Re: technical - grooving short wedge shots should be a part of what you do for the rest of your time playing golf. You want to find a ‘home base’, something you can always go back to when things go awry. ‘A year’ was probably the incorrect way of saying ‘do this for a long time’. Lasting changes that show up under pressure take a lot of work.

Source: me - dropped 9 HC points in 6 years (9-0). Found somebody to listen to and trusted the ride. ‘Results’ didn’t come right away. But when I look at video and scores over time, they are there.

I can’t stress it enough, find someone you believe in and get along with and commit to what they’re telling you. I barely made contact the first few months of my change. I chipped away, and I got to a level where now I usually get my ass kicked by college kids and stud ams...but I’m competing.

 

[PepsiDuck]

At this point, I'd be glad to break 90. Baby steps...?

 

But seriously, I think LeftHook made a good point about danger of relying on swing feel(s), and I'd speculate that it contributes to me issues going from range to course. The series of feels I use to produce the swing on the video is a bit...strange... So on the range, without the danger of hitting balls into houses or interstate highways, I can perform the feel just fine and swing freely. But when I get on the course, I'm never comfortable with the feels; because my mind thinks I'm going to block it off the planet, and my body reacts. The left shoulder pops up and opens up too soon, before my arms can catch up. But I merely speculate...

[glk]

Pepsi not just for you but all of the range rat in us. 20 minutes on practice and learning.

 

[glk]

Another gem. Range to the course.

[pappaf2]

Pepsi, I think you and I might be related. All of your descriptions of chasing results, bouncing from feel to feel and taking notes only to have it not do squat the next time to hit a ball is all too close to home. I don't go to the range hardly at all but mentally we might be the same person.

That said this last comment about being terrified of the trouble and danger on the golf course makes me think of something Fred Shoemaker talks about. He basically talks about making the golf course a "safe" place for you to be and not worrying so much about where you might hit the ball. Easier said than done obviously but a worthwhile though process. If I can find the link to the podcast where he talks about that I'll post it.

 

Good luck Pepsi, I'm rooting for you.

 

 

 

EDIT - Podcast is located here: http://extraordinarygolf.com/podcasts-videos/

sorry can't find ta stand alone link. It's the pod from March 2009 (3rd one down in the playlist) and the comment starts at the 18 minute mark.

[Chunking]

Does the same anxiety of trusting your swing appear on courses that don’t border houses and public roads?

I play three types of courses in AZ.

Switchback courses where only the 5-6 holes on the perimeter border houses or roads and only to one side. All other holes have a “safe” miss into a hazard or another fairway. No concern with taking out a window.

Desert courses that most often have OB on both sides, but no houses or public roads to be concerned of.

Residential courses that have many houses bordering the fairways. Some holes/ courses are tighter than others, but there’s a good risk of damaging property with a miss hit.

i play my worst on the residential courses as I just can’t help but worry about a wayward shot. Even on desert courses which are a higher rating and tight, I play and score better simply because a wayward shot only carries the penalty, but no risk of property damage.

I play my best on those switch back courses, even if the slope is comparable to the others. Tee it up, let it rip! A bad tee shot generally puts you between fairways, or maybe in an adjacent one. I find far more fairways when I’m free to swing on these types of holes.

Of course it all comes back to your earlier comment about needing to develope the mental side of your game.

[PepsiDuck]

Of course I like switchback courses the best, where you have holes stacked up next to each other and plenty of room to go sideways. However, even with all that room, I still manage to go sideways. Tight desert courses are tough for me, because the OB on both sides are make the holes appear extra narrow. Residential courses don't bother me as much anymore after learning that in California, homeowners assume the risk of errant shots. The worst are the holes with adjacent roads. There was a par 3 at my previous club in Virginia that had an interstate highway coming out of DC on the left side. I managed to drop one right in there during afternoon rush hour. Golfer liability for cars is a bit different....

I think it will take a LONG time to be able to swing freely and without fear when trouble/OB/houses/cars/etc. are in play on the hole.

[PepsiDuck]

So I had my lesson this morning with the local PGA pro, and it definitely exceeded expectations. After a short warmup, we started with a brief discussion about my history with the game, golf goals that motivated me to take lessons with him, and issues I wanted to address. He then went over his teaching philosophy and approach. Then we talked about the mental game and some of the books I had read. His first homework assignment for me was to re-read the Marriott/Nilsson book Every Shot Must Have a Purpose.

Now it was time to hit some balls. He somehow misplaced his iPad, so we decided to proceed old school; all he needed was an alignment stick and his eyeballs. He had me hit some shots with various clubs to establish a baseline; I'd self-rate each shot after I hit it. Meanwhile, he was observing both my swing and my ball flight with nothing more than the alignment stick. After I finished with the driver, he went over the many things I did right and should continue to do. He then noted three things specific things that needed improvement, all in my setup:More pressure toward the front of the foot. I naturally favor weight on my heels because of the weight training background; I drive from the heels with all my big compound lifts, so I feel centered and balanced when I'm sitting back on my heels. He had me move the pressure toward the front of the foot, which got me more bent over from the waist and standing farther back from the ball.More secondary tilt at address with shorter clubs. My shoulders were too level with my wedges and short irons.Kick in right knee at address. My right leg was straightening too much and I was over-extending (?) on the backswing. This is just a simple setup adjustment, though I'm still not exactly sure the reason for it. I'll just trust it.He also mentioned that I early extended, but after making the setup changes, the early extension stopped for every shot. It's a small sample size, but it's pretty compelling that setup makes such a difference. I admit it's something I've always taken for granted...

Finally, we talked about transition. I knew it was going to come up. I just need to delay my transition. He gave me a couple drills to help with that, and it's something we'll continue to work on. The focus for now is to ingrain all the setup changes. We got along really well and I enjoyed the conversation with him. There was the right balance of detail and technical information. I'll probably see him again in a couple weeks.

After the lesson was over, he found his iPad in his golf bag.

[pappaf2]

Was the lost IPad a ruse the whole time?

Hahah

[Lefthook]

I agree. It is very difficult to do this without an instructor at your side.

[PepsiDuck]

We actually chatted about that after he found it, and I was glad that we did the lesson without video. I feel that seeing myself on video would lead me to get distracted and start asking about other things I see during the playback, rather than focus on the few points that we were working on for that particular lesson.Agreed. I booked a series of lessons with him and will be working with him at least through the summer.

[PepsiDuck]

I played a round with the men's club at my home course this morning, one day after my lesson yesterday. I ended up shooting a 94 (52/42). It was a very early round, so there was no daylight to warm up on the range. Since the adjustments from yesterday's lesson were all setup-based, I was able to deliberate check my setup on every shot. I know there are other issues that need to be addressed with the swing, but I left everything else alone and just focused on setup. I hit some great shots and some not so great shots. Some post-round thoughts:

Road holes killed me. There are a few holes with adjacent roads. There's a par 3 on the front with a road to the left, and a par 5 on the back with a road to the right. I was a total +10 on those two holes alone.When playing shots around the green, I get too focused on the hole; so my chips and pitches tend to land near the hole and then roll out another six or seven feet, leaving long par putts. When I'm planning my shot, I pick out a landing spot and try to hit to it, but I somehow always carry it too far. I need to learn how to visualize my short game shots better; this is something I want to bring up with the pro.My back 9 was considerably better; I think I finally understand what it feels like to just let the downswing happen after transition, rather than to "power" the downswing with the left arm or the right elbow.After the round, I stopped by to chat with the pro who was doing a clinic. I told him about how I struggled through the round, even with the focus on the setup adjustments. We both left that conversation confident that we'll get there in time. I'll be going to the AMEX in La Quinta tomorrow and then playing up there with my wife on Monday.

[Lefthook]

The 42 must have felt good.

 

[PepsiDuck]

It did. Aside from the quad bogey on the par 5 road hole (result from two drives into the road), I actually played better.

[PepsiDuck]

"Houston, we have a problem..."

I was looking back at some of the recent video and observed something that is likely problematic. I borrowed a screenshot from Monte's Efficient Swing video (hope he doesn't mind) to illustrate a good P3, or left arm parallel on the backswing. He's on the left, and I'm in the middle (8 iron) and on the right (driver). We clearly coordinated outfits for his video and my night screenshot. It isn't hard to see where I have an issue...

[hurley999s]

Interesting you’ve posted this because I have the same exact problem and was just thinking about this yesterday because I took some video inside to see where my swings at.

I KNOW the club should be more vertical for me on the takeaway but at left arm parallel I’m just as laid off. Right now I have zero feel for this because I can consciously try to keep the club vertical and it looks exactly the same as your picture.

[Nard_S]

Arms create width and lift. Shoulder turn creates depth. Sucking arms across & inside is conflating the two. Fix that, the ability to get at or under plane in down swing becomes easier even if arms are firing hard. The ability throughout to maintain shoulder plane gets easier too.

 

 

[PepsiDuck]

I had a chance to work on this on the range yesterday, on top of the setup improvements from my lesson, and I think we're onto something. I have the same trouble being comfortable with feeling a vertical shaft at P2, knowing full well that it won't ever be vertical.

Today, I played out in the desert and shot a 91 on a relatively straightforward "switchback" course. Some positive takeaways from this round:

For the most part, I was able to avoid fix-the-swing syndrome on the course and just swung the club with the swing I came in with. I'd just focus on scoring from where my ball ended up, even after a bad drive or a bad shot. The problem with this approach is that I ended up hitting a lot of bad drives.I still feel that I'm making progress with the swing, even after a bad day on the course. I just need to spend more time ingraining the setup changes and working on that transition.I really need to see the pro about my short game...I end up wasting strokes on routine short game shots.On a more positive note, I have the privilege of getting to hang out with Bubba Watson, Harold Varner, and Maverick McNealy tomorrow! I get to escort them around base as they tour a fighter jet squadron and give a demo at the golf course.