USGA DISTANCE INSIGHT

[freowho]

The US Open is hardly the standard for good course setup. Been a bit of a train wreck many times.

[milesgiles]

Let me give you a further benefit to half inch tees as a solution

cant tell you the number of amateurs I’ve played with who can hit the driver and absolutely nothing else. 12 handicaps sometimes. The fact that you can get up and make a bad swing with a 460cc head and still hit a ‘good’ shot I think makes the rest of the game very difficult.

short tees equals smaller clubheads (without marking a single other change to courses, balls, club specs or anything else) which equals being forced to make a better more controlled swing. No bifurcation either.

tell me I’m wrong

[freowho]

It removes the ability to hit 5 degrees up on a 5 degree driver so a loss of distance but I don't think it would necessarily reduce the size of the head or the length of the club. Manufacturers would mess around with the CG and sweet spot so it would still go a bit further than a 3 wood. I agree with you about there being 2 different games now. Driver and then everything else and at club level hitting the driver well is often at the expense of everything else.

Unfortunately I think the money has hijacked the game and it's hard for the ruling bodies to do anything without spending years in court. The PGA tours should be representing the game, not bastardising it.

[milesgiles]

a 460cc clubhead would surely be redundant with a half inch tee.. what’s the rest of the club for? Under my manifesto, I’d see how the manufacturers responded and what carry distances we then end up with.

your first ambition as an aspiring pro these days is to carry it over 300 yards. It’s that important. It’s the carry, not the rollout, that make architectural features redundant.

I’ll say again, long STRAIGHT hitting should always be rewarded

[smashdn]

If you are implying that I don't think there are other ways I can assure you that isn't true. However, those ways are not conducive to golf for the rest of us the rest of the time nor are they a good solution week after week on the PGA Tour as guys would just skip them or gripe and get them changed. The PGA I am thinking more and more is a bad barometer of what is going on with Golf. More might be gleaned from college results and other high level am events. They just aren't as visible and the stats not available as readily.

 

Congressional was long and soft in 2011. It didn't fair well.

Harbour Town plays [relatively] short and tight (and a par 71) but most guys skip it (and yes I know it is most likely due to scheduling).

Detroit GC - Classic architecture, 7300+ yards, trees and decent rough, destroyed.

Memorial set up at Muirfield, Length and rough and blisteringly fast, hard greens, that reined them in but that is not sustainable, though it was challenging for scoring. Scoring isn't my beef, it is keeping driver on the planet.

 

So what am I missing?

[oikos1]

That's not how it works. You made the claim. The burden of proof falls upon you. Readily awaiting evidence.

[milesgiles]

What am I proving?

can YOU carry it 300 yards off a half inch tee? Anyone you’ve ever played with? I play with two ex tour pros do you want their opinion?

[smashdn]

I've stated before, guy at local club had an ace on par four (315 yards) with a three wood. I wasn't there but it was in a comp and witnessed by playing partners and made the facebooks. No reason to doubt it was not legitimate He's an electrician btw. I can't tell you whether it went 305 or 308 yards and rolled in for the balance but I know he didn't hit a low running draw into it, hole will not allow that. He went up and over two large trees and a pond. I couldn't tell you how high he had it teed up either.

Having said all that, they can carry 300 with 1" teed up 3 wood. Pros can do it off the deck if they wanted as well.

I think it is a step that could be taken, it just won't have the magnitude of change you think it would.

[milesgiles]

Like I said, I’ve watched Rory many times over the years, never ever seen him carry it more than 281,282. Pro’s absolutely do not carry a 3 wood 300 yards off the deck. I reject your reality

[storm319]

You are wrong...

[milesgiles]

272 carry.. it’s on the screen!

that is EXACTLY the sort of tee shot I WANT to see the pros hit.. low, shaped to the hole, not smashing it over the obstacles and hoping for the best

the further benefit is that the spectators can actually see it!

cheers!

[Titleist99]

What you're missing is.......the driving average right now according to the PGATOUR is 290 yards all drives and that's down a couple a yards. Currently fifteen to twenty players average 300+and they're not prolific winners on the tour. If guys can hit it long and straight, great but if they're off line a penalty should be paid. Right now the tour is a little lenient in that department and that's by choice. The tour sells distance....

[trilerian]

I seem to remember Bubba Watson hitting driver off the deck on a few occasions that would have had to been close to 300 carry.

[storm319]

First, his swing above looks like he clearly has more left in the tank. If this tee height limit was a reality, the OEMs would create shallower faced mini drivers that would be optimized for distance and allow guys like this easily carry over 300 (keep in mind his 3 wood there was not fit for maximum distance off the tee as its goal).

Also, you want to see 60 yards of roll with a 3 wood?! It sounds like you are more worried about the optics of what you see on TV than anything else which is a poor reason for regulatory change.

I can't find a video of it but at the US Open at Chambers bay in 2015, there was a short par 4 on the back side that was playing just over 300 yards. Dustin Johnson and Jason Day both carried the green back to back with 3 woods that were less than 180cc in size and ended up rolling off the back of the green.

[milesgiles]

Maybe, maybe they will invent a driver that a few tour pros can carry 300 with a half inch tee. A couple of players here and there hitting certain shots with many unknown variables isn't great evidence though.

Would you not say it's objectively true that a shorter tee will mean a smaller clubhead?

And that a smaller clubbed will mean less forgiveness and a more.controlled swing?

And that we can all speculate how much carry distance would be lost but that it's a neck of a lot easier to change the tee than any other variable you could think of? Heck you could do it next week!

[smashdn]

So what are the other ways to set up a course to challenge them other than firm and taller rough? Your contention that I was responding to was that I missed the other ways to challenge them. I provided examples where other set ups were also not challenging (or problematic in The Memorial's case).

I agree they sell distance but the distance you hit the ball is not relevant to what you get paid (sans endorsements). The distance you hit the ball relevant to the competition and your ability to use that distance to score is.

[storm319]

Exhibit B...

[milesgiles]

Bubba was the longest hitter on tour more than once. That shot is, if I recall, about 80 feet downhill and it STILL pitched at least 40 yards before the green.

youre trying hard to prove me wrong but looking in all the wrong places. I’ve said many times that one player doing this, that or the other isn’t good evidence, and even then the evidence you are coming up with (twice now) is supporting me, not you.

you can control carry easiest with the tee peg. You can control roll by letting fairways grow and/or mowing the grass towards the tee.

why are we even discussing balls, drivers, modifying landing areas and a million other things?

Bring in half inch tees immediately!

[Titleist99]

Well just having rough is not enough. Strategic rough is the key. These guys feast on shaved banks unless there's a penal area of water, you must grow the rough around the green and landing areas 300+

Brutal pin placements is mandatory and make the player choose one side or the other even from the fairway....210 yard par threes is nothing to pros, they'll take their three and run to the next hole, you have to entice them to go for sucker pins. Make par threes shorter.....More drivable par 4's with a chance to make 3 or 6......they don't have to be longer. I've yet to see a penal bunker on the PGATOUR.

Distance without scoring is irrelevant......But you may get a sponsor deal.

[storm319]

That video was in response to your quote "Would you not say it's objectively true that a shorter tee will mean a smaller clubhead?". Regardless of who it was, that was a 460cc driver off the deck. Driver/Driver to reach a 660 yard par 5 in 2. The point is the pros will figure out a way around what you are proposing and we will be right back here making the same arguments. There is no rollback that will bring back professional golf back to the 1960/1970 "golden era" style of play and some people just need to except that.

[milesgiles]

He almost certainly hit driver because he needed to fade it and didn’t have to concern himself with the carry. If you watch Bubba live, or know that hole, you’ll understand.

golf doesn’t need to go back to the 70s and no one is arguing for that. Personally the 90s would be fine, the pre 460cc clubhead era. I don’t see anyway the average pro would get anywhere near a 300 carry with a short tee, but instead of debating a million things far more expensive and complicated, let’s start with the simplest option first and see where it takes us

How is that arguable?

[smashdn]

Deep dive into the the stats side says we really should not even bother the pro's with par threes. If you gave them the option before a tournament to take all pars on the par threes for the rest of the week they would be a fool not to take you up on it.

I don't understand (I understand the premise but I don't think it is true in practice) that brutal pin positions somehow create an impact on driving distance. I understand the line of thinking: more emphasis/need to be in the fairway and one a particular side of fairway to attack or have access to a given pin, but The Memorial 2020 showed otherwise. It didn't take driver out of the players' hands much if at all. The holes were mostly all cut a handful of paces from the edges. That isn't hard and fast, dead-lock true all the time just a recent example. It seems to me that when the courses get harder, the hole locations more severe there is less temptation/need to go at holes and they tend to play more to the middle of the green, thus somewhat negating a need to be one side or the other of the fairway. I will grant you when the greens are exceptionally hard to hold that spin becomes a bigger deal and being in the fairway where you can control spin is huge. How many weeks in a row of Memorial conditions will the pros put up with before they cry foul?

About the only thing that gives pros heartburn is uncertainty. How will the ball react when it lands or how will it come off the clubface. Rough can do that to an extent bordering the fairway, but does uniform rough create that around the green? Same thing for the shaved surrounds you bring up. If it is uniform and real short you have options for different plays but they are all going to come off as well as your level of execution. Putt it up the slope, bump and run it, flop it. The conditions are so uniform and certain, there is no uncertainty.

They don't hit into penal bunkers. They give them a wide birth. If there was a reward for getting close to said bunker it would cease to be penal but be a risk-reward bunker. But I think you mean a bunker that is just a _____ to get out of. About the only thing I see that meets that standard for a pro is a bunker with chert rocks in it like the ones I play from (not going to happen) or sod-faced jokers you got to play out sideways. The deep sod-faced jokers aren't real prevalent stateside. Last scenario is a bunker 35-60 yards away from the green. They hardly ever hit into those. Stats-wise they do suck from those.

[trilerian]

All going to a 1/2" tee would do is bring about another redesign of the driver. Whether or not you want to accept it, Bubba hit that shot over 300 yds with a driver off the deck. That means others can train to do it too, and with a driver designed to hit off the deck nonetheless... And, redesigning the driver wouldn't be cheap, and then what? The bifurcation becomes the driver? Or are you suggesting 1/2" tee for all?

[smashdn]

Most pros are level or even slightly negative AoA with driver. The tee height only allows them to use larger drivers. The manufacturers would just move the sweetspot lower on the face or shallow the face. You'd be using a spoon instead of a driver, a 2 wood instead of a 1 wood. You might shave distance 5-10%, maybe.

That TM V-Steel Tour Spoon was deep.

[milesgiles]

But for the umpteenth time, the longest hitter on tour didn’t CARRY it anywhere near 300 even 80 feet downhill! Jesus!

[trilerian]

But he did hit a club not optimized to hit off the deck over 300 yds. Change the launch conditions and it will carry that far. You don't have to hit up to carry 300. A sweeping swing or slightly down can still produce massive distances. There is a whole thread on it on the instruction forum with a former long drive champion saying you don't have to hit up.

[milesgiles]

Yes, but it’s not going to go FURTHER is it? Nobody, not me, not you, not Mr Titleist himself knows for a fact what a redesigned small headed driver would do. 10% is significant, and it might be considerably more. How about a quarter inch tee? Strong 2 and 3 woods already exist, is a new driver going to be all that different, really?

Try it for an offseason invitational. Try it on the euro tour. Try it on the challenge tour. Gauge player/spectator reaction. Win.

[smashdn]

Google up mini-driver. TM has one, Callaway has one. I bet if you youtube it there is someone hitting one in front of trackman to get you some numbers.

[milesgiles]

Off a half inch tee? At 120mph? No way. Absolutely no way. Ask him

[milesgiles]

only relevant if it’s off a half inch tee on the course

tee it up 2-3 inches, on a range with no consequence for a bad shot, why would I expect it to read any different to a 460 clubhead?