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sm8 nonsense....


bogeypro

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It's the problem with golf equipment marketing in general. At least Titleist is on 2-year product cycles (generally), so there's some plausibility to the idea that they've been able to "improve" upon their designs from 2 years ago, where other OEMs are pumping stuff out every 6 months to a year that is supposedly better, faster, more accurate, longer, etc. It's a joke. These OEMs have access to top-notch technology to design and test these clubs - absent some revolution in design/materials technology, there aren't going to be radical gains in wedges from 2018 to 2020. How many Tour pros won with SM7 wedges in the bag the last 2 years (and I know their wedges were all custom/Wedgeworks/custom grinds/Tour issue/etc.)? Did they have to overcome inferior equipment to win? Don't insult us with some BS about Tour pros hitting "high right floaters" with wedges that you allegedly "validated" with those Tour pros and tested for nearly 2 years.

Consumers aren't stupid anymore - we can pull up the marketing materials on the SM7 and SM8 series and compare side by side to see what they said at the time. Equipment is pretty much maxed out across the board - the only real gains (IMO) to be had are from custom fitting for everything (clubs, shafts, balls) to max out/optimize numbers for a given ability set. I was in the market for a set of SM8's but I'm going in another direction now (seriously).

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Titleist TSR2 11*, Oban Devotion 6S

Titleist TSR2 16.5*, GD Tour AD BB 7S

Titleist TSR2 21*, Fujikura Speeder Pro TS 84

Titleist TS2 25*, GD Tour AD HY 95S
Titleist T100S, 6-GW, Recoil 110 F4

Miura 52.06, 56.10, 60.09, Recoil Proto 125 F4

Ping PLD Custom Anser 4, 34"/355g

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Yes, consumers can pull comparisons and keep learning, but sadly our internal corporate research says it's not the case. Why? There is so much information on the net people are overwhelmed with not knowing what or who to believe.  How often have we heard someone discount what another person says by using the words "that's anecdotal."  Today, more than ever, people are ridiculously skeptical, too. Instead of determining who is more likely to know what their talking about, and listening to possibly the wrong person, they chose to remain in a cloud of confusion or ignorance.

I wish it weren't true, but there's a bone of contention with the statement, "Consumers aren't stupid anymore."  

 

 

  • TSR2 10° Ventus Velo TR Blue 58S
  • TSR2 15° Talamonti PD80R
  • T200 17' 2i Tensei AV Raw White Hybrid 95S
  • T100 3i & 4i MMT 85S
  • T100 5i to 9i MMT 105S
  • T100 PW, SM9 F52/12, M58/8, PX Wedge 120S
  • SC/CA Monterey
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Really - Ford and GM's Marketing Departments are regulated? Claims like - "smoother ride", "advanced grill design", "elevated road-side presence" (*all actual claims) - are purely objective ??

Yeah - right, ok. I would actually think golf club performance (spin numbers etc.) could be measured more objectively than cars. Marketing is marketing …. caveat emptor ….

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... Forum members can be so ignorant when it comes to equipment. I have spoken too so many OEMs that freely admit this years product is a tweak or minor improvement over last years product. None of them are expecting players to upgrade from the F9 to the Speedzone. Certainly from the Pro S to the Speedzone but not the F9. Titleist in particular suggest players keep their current irons and not "upgrade" to their latest model if their current irons are working well for them. As the Marketing Director told me 15 years ago, Titleist wants customers for life, not a product cycle. Of course there are golfers with disposable income that love to try new stuff all the time and no OEM is gonna bemoan selling them new clubs, but they are the exception.

... But there are players looking for new clubs every single year and maybe they haven't upgraded in 5 or 10 or even 20 years but they are finally in the market. THESE are the players OEMs are marketing, not loyal customers or forum members. The average golfer pays little attention to equipment. I play as a single a ton in Orlando, LA and Phoenix when away from home and have been paired up with thousands of golfers over the years and it is extremely rare for any player to know what shaft is in their driver. He!! it is rare for them to know what ball they play!?! All of you have had someone drive up in a cart and ask "Did you see a Titleist?" and if you ask what kind of Titleist they say #3 and have no idea if it is a ProV1, Velocity or DT Solo.

... So when they are in the market for a new driver looking at the Mavrik, SIM and Speedzone they have zero knowledge about the Epic Flash, M5 or F9. They may not even know much about their RBZ that still has a worn out sticker hat the bottom of the shaft LOL. As Medium Stu and others have said in one way or another, forum members are unique in the equipment world and have knowledge far surpassing the average buyer. Is the SM8 better than the SM7? Of course it is, based on feedback from tour pro's that depend on exact yardage and trajectory to make their living. But the question is, how much better? For them, maybe 3.75% better or if it truly fits their game, more than that and for some it will be worse than the SM7. But as + index and the short game the cornerstone of my ability to score, I can imagine it is not any better at all for me. Sure, it is an improvement design but will hitting it on a lower trajectory by 1* make a difference I can see and quantify? Probably not. So as an equipment guy that has done reviews for many years and love equipment, I will certainly check out the SM8 and see if any of the "advances" are even noticeable but I am under no illusion that my SM7 is flawed and I will hit better shots with the SM8. Marketing gets my attention but has zero influence on what I may add or subtract from my bag. I am always a little dismayed at equipment forum members that seem to think all Marketing is hype and lies.

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Driver:       TM Qi10 ... Ventus Velocore Red 5R
Fairway:    Cobra Aerojet 3/5 ... Kai'li Blue 60R
Hybrids:    Ping G430 22* ... Alta CB Black 70r
                  TM Dhy #4 ... Diamana LTD 65r

Irons:         Titleist T200 '23 5-Pw ... Steelfiber i95r
Wedges:    Vokey 50*/54*/58* ... Steelfiber i95r
Putter:       Cobra King Sport-60
Ball:            2023 Maxfli Tour

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The amount of people who will cross compare ads to ads from like 3-5 years ago is so small to be literally negligible. OEMs can change marketing campaigns, re-use old gimmicks, even say contradicting things and it's not really a big deal

I agree that on average consumers are likely a bit smarter as there is a lot more information available, so those willing to research can do that. I knew literally every single feature my car had before i walked in the door of the dealership.That being said i believe most people are too busy, or lazy, or distracted, to really do that research beyond listening to "twitter style" headlines. People want to hear 1 or 2 sentences. After that they are onto something else. Marketing is still very important which is why companies invest so much in data and marketing/ad people, it's just changed a bit

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Srixon ZX5 w/PX Hzrdus Red 60

Srixon ZX 15 w/PX Hzrdus Red 70

Tour Edge C723 21* w/PX hzrdus black 80

Titleist T150 4-AW w/PX LZ 6.0

Titleist Jet Black 54/60 with PX LZ 6.0

Deschamps Crisp Antique 

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You either choose to buy the SM8 wedges or you don't.

And you can choose to do so, with or without your GOLF WRX stories, opinions, rationalizations, complaints and/or hopes, dreams or fantasies of a miracle new short game from 100 yards and IN. I enjoy my fellow WRK's reads and all of the aforementioned, but really am looking for PLAYING results and feedback.

I chose !!!! I ordered the SM8 wedges, 54* & 58* with custom FST KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 shaft from VokeyWedgeWork. Can't wait to put them in PLAY. My range demos have been really good but that's not the same as live play on the course with a healthy bet $$$ factor. FOREEEE

Equipment is part of my love for the game. Full report / OPINION to follow.

 

 

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I find it hard to believe Titleist hasn’t figured out how to make a wedge after all the years they’ve been making them

all of this nonsense comes from manufacturers having to make new models every year. Once you’ve perfected the model (say, 20 years ago), all you’re doing is marketing.

 

being a club designer when you’ve already designed the perfect club must truly suck.

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Two years from now they'll be moving the tungsten away from the toe (or removing it completely) for some random reason brought up by Tour pros that didn't surface during two years of "validation" and testing by the same Tour pros.

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Titleist TSR2 11*, Oban Devotion 6S

Titleist TSR2 16.5*, GD Tour AD BB 7S

Titleist TSR2 21*, Fujikura Speeder Pro TS 84

Titleist TS2 25*, GD Tour AD HY 95S
Titleist T100S, 6-GW, Recoil 110 F4

Miura 52.06, 56.10, 60.09, Recoil Proto 125 F4

Ping PLD Custom Anser 4, 34"/355g

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I think what is rubbing a lot of people wrong is not the fact that they’re saying the new wedges are better than previous iterations, but that last years were “wrong”.

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Driver: Titleist Tsi2 - GD AD-IZ 6x

3 wood: Taylormade SIM Max 15 - GD AD-VR 7x

hybrid: Ping G425 19 - GD AD-DI Hy 95x

irons (4-pw): Ping iBlade - Project X rifle 6.5 +1"

wedges (50,55,60): Vokey Sm9 - Project X rifle 6.5 +1"

Putter: Scotty Cameron Phantom X 5.5 36"

Ball: Titleist ProV1

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Exactly. Just say "we tweaked COG in the higher lofted wedges for blah blah blah" instead of implying that last year's wedges were faulty somehow with some BS story about Tour pros hitting high right floaters with their lob wedges. It makes Titleist look bad and pisses me off as a longtime Titleist consumer.

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Titleist TSR2 11*, Oban Devotion 6S

Titleist TSR2 16.5*, GD Tour AD BB 7S

Titleist TSR2 21*, Fujikura Speeder Pro TS 84

Titleist TS2 25*, GD Tour AD HY 95S
Titleist T100S, 6-GW, Recoil 110 F4

Miura 52.06, 56.10, 60.09, Recoil Proto 125 F4

Ping PLD Custom Anser 4, 34"/355g

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Teh reality is that there's not all that much change from year to year in a tour forged wedge. There's not but so much tech is a forged club other than moving weight here and there and making more grind options available stock. We all get too swooned by OEM marketing. If you added up the 20 yards I've gained from new drivers I'd be averaging 1,000 yards per drive ?

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With the frequency that wedges should be replaced, I think it would be more advantageous to have small incremental changes rather than large wholesale changes from product release to product release. The last thing a industry/product leading OEM wants is to radically recreate the wedge, just for the sake of changing it, and tick off their customer base.

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this video touches on it. I can try to find more if you’d like
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Driver: Titleist Tsi2 - GD AD-IZ 6x

3 wood: Taylormade SIM Max 15 - GD AD-VR 7x

hybrid: Ping G425 19 - GD AD-DI Hy 95x

irons (4-pw): Ping iBlade - Project X rifle 6.5 +1"

wedges (50,55,60): Vokey Sm9 - Project X rifle 6.5 +1"

Putter: Scotty Cameron Phantom X 5.5 36"

Ball: Titleist ProV1

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It's always good to keep in mind the amount of $ these companies spend on marketing vs r&d.

I believe in 2019 Callaway as an example (since they have public filings) they spent around $50 mil on R&D. In contrast their "selling expenses", which I think is mostly marketing, was $400+ mil.

It's a weird industry and it makes sense to me to be cautious as a consumer. Frankly in my opinion, it doesn't help that when BV talks in public he speaks like a used car salesman.

Of course when my wedge grooves wear out I'll buy some new vokeys.

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So how many of you will be buying the SM8 after all the marketing materials and this thread?

PING G430 LST 10.5° | DIAMANA GT 60X

COBRA DARKSPEED X 3HF 16.5° | HZRDUS BLACK 70X

PING G425 7W 20.5° | DIAMANA GT 70X

SRIXON ZX5 5-6 | MMT TAPER 105TX

SRIXON ZX7 7-PW | MMT TAPER 105TX

PING GLIDE 4.0 50°/54°/58° | MMT WEDGE 125TX

ODYSSEY TRI-HOT 5K SEVEN DB

SRIXON Z-STAR DIAMOND 

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I'm more mad about high bounce pitching and gap wedges and mostly no L grind in the 58.

Dr. Sim2 8° w/ RDX blue 60 6.5

3 Wood. Sim2 15° and 19° w/ Diamana 70x

Ui. Callaway x forged ut 21° w/ dg120 x100

4 to GW. Mizuno Pro 223 w/ dg120 x100

SW and Lw. 54° and 58° Milled grind raw w/ dg s200

Putter. Odyssey OG 1ws, 33 inches

Ball. Taylormade TP5x

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The first problem as I see it is that the design and engineering changes in SM8 are being used to fix a fault with the wedge...

"harder to square b/c the CG is being moved up the face and back from the hosel"

...that somehow no one realized was happening over the multiple years that it was taking to implement the SM6/SM7 design concept.

The second problem is that I don't even understand why the CG movement would result in the wedge being harder to square. I'm just taking Titleist's word for it that this phenomenon is happening and they "fixed it".

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It literally says the old model design made it “harder to square the face”. You’re telling me they didn’t realize this after sm6 so decided to go even more extreme for sm7 and now not only is it wrong, it made the club worse? This Is them saying “previous gen wedges were wrong” as you asked for.

Driver: Titleist Tsi2 - GD AD-IZ 6x

3 wood: Taylormade SIM Max 15 - GD AD-VR 7x

hybrid: Ping G425 19 - GD AD-DI Hy 95x

irons (4-pw): Ping iBlade - Project X rifle 6.5 +1"

wedges (50,55,60): Vokey Sm9 - Project X rifle 6.5 +1"

Putter: Scotty Cameron Phantom X 5.5 36"

Ball: Titleist ProV1

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This just seems like making a mountain out of a molehill. Is it impossible to believe that moving the CG around can help in one area while having unintended consequences in another?

I don't have a dog in this Vokey fight, as I just bought new Callaway MD5 Jaws wedges, no doubt influenced by the marketing of new groove designs, microgrooves, and sole grinds being an improvement over what was previously in my bag. And guess what? I like these wedges more, because they are working for me.

Callaway Paradym Ai Smoke ♦♦♦ 10.5° Ventus Velocore+ Blue 6S

Callaway Paradym Ai Smoke ♦♦♦ 15° Ventus TR Red 6S

Callaway Paradym Ai Smoke ♦♦♦ 20° Ventus TR Red 7X

Titleist TSR2 24° Atmos TS Blue 8S

Titleist 718 AP2 5-PW Project X LZ 5.5

Titleist Vokey SM9 50.08F, 58.14K (at 56°), 60.04T DG Wedge Flex

Scotty Cameron Studio Stainless Newport 1.5 Prototype

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Totally agree with you. I guess a comparison would be when md6 comes out callaway says “actually the jaws grooves were imparting less spin so we’ve switched to ___ grooves”.

Driver: Titleist Tsi2 - GD AD-IZ 6x

3 wood: Taylormade SIM Max 15 - GD AD-VR 7x

hybrid: Ping G425 19 - GD AD-DI Hy 95x

irons (4-pw): Ping iBlade - Project X rifle 6.5 +1"

wedges (50,55,60): Vokey Sm9 - Project X rifle 6.5 +1"

Putter: Scotty Cameron Phantom X 5.5 36"

Ball: Titleist ProV1

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YES!!! exactly my point. I understand tweaking, but they are saying the previous are faulty or wrong in some way.

PXG Black Ops Tour 1 Fujikura Motore X F3

PXG Black Ops 3 wood hzrdus black

PXG Black Ops 17* hybrid hzrdus black

TaylorMade P770 4-9 KBS Tour

TaylorMade  MG 46/52/58wedges

TaylorMade Spider mallet 72 putter

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here is another, this time Vokey himself talking about he problems with the previous wedge.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9YVIIaqB-k&t=168s

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PXG Black Ops Tour 1 Fujikura Motore X F3

PXG Black Ops 3 wood hzrdus black

PXG Black Ops 17* hybrid hzrdus black

TaylorMade P770 4-9 KBS Tour

TaylorMade  MG 46/52/58wedges

TaylorMade Spider mallet 72 putter

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