Membership Recommendation Request from a Future Phoenix Area Golfer

[BobbyLite]

Well upon further review both SG and Anthem are about the same distance. If the rumor about SG not going private until 2025 stands to be true that’s a deal breaker.

 

[BigSky59]

Apparently SG will be semi-private. You can still purchase a membership and be a dues-paying golf member, but once the club goes private, membership priority will be given to those residents inside the gated community.

If the demand is high enough where they are going to hit their max membership cap and need your membership to fulfill a membership of a resident, then they have reserved the right to offer your membership to that resident. Definitely get some info from their membership director and ask for the fine print.

[AdExec]

@BobbyLite
Happy to host you at Moon Valley if you want to check it out. It’s a solid entry level club for an under 45 member. Not sure if they are running promotions but its showing $7500 initiation and $535/month dues. The dues are all inclusive (no cart fees, bag fees, lockers fees, etc). Food and Bev minimum is like $800/year. I personally like the neighborhood/architecture/price point housing wise and recently went under contract on a mid century modern home there. For what I’ll be spending between membership and mortgage I cant imagine finding a better overall value. (Assuming Moon Valley can keep its current conditioning or better).
Id love to have a 2nd membership at somewhere like Desert Forest long term, but its hard to beat something like Moon Valley, Mesa CC, or Phoenix Country Club as your home course. I love desert golf, but prefer to have an “old school” course as my home course. I grew up on the east coast and still love hitting high/low/left/right around trees on the old courses. Not sure of the yardages at Mesa or Phoenix, but Moon Valley can play tough and longer than most old courses. Runs about 7200 yards from tips and greens are firm. Half of them are smaller with Ridges and slopes and half of them are larger with more subtle slopes.
I keep a Troon Card and a TPC Pass for when I want to play something different or out of town guests since Troon North and TPC are on everybody’s must play list.

[AdExec]

Does anyone have the numbers for early buy in memberships at Sterling Grove? Lots of hype for the community as a whole (I’m a realtor). Ive had friends in LA and San Diego reach out recently to discuss buying a 2nd home there with golf membership. I’ll be taking one of them for a tour end of the month. I’m interested to see it all for myself. While part of me hates master planned communities, its hard to deny the lifestyle they offer for the cost if you’re going to use the amenities it to the fullest.

[vallygolf]

Interesting that it is going private in 2025. Just a guess but it seems only about 10% (or less) of clubs utilizing this approach ever really go private. Either way that gives 5 solid years of play IF it is worth the hype.

[az2au]

I'd guess there's very little chance they meet the 2025 goal at this point. It took Anthem a lot longer than originally projected and it was surprising they actually got there. Wickenburg Ranch keeps pushing out and it wouldn't surprise me if they never get there although they might simply due to eventually getting enough homeowners.

[BigSky59]

For “non-residents” I’ve seen $6k initiation fee and $575 per month dues.

[BigSky59]

True and it’s tough to tell. To me (and just from what I’ve heard) it seems like that date of 2025 is an arbitrary number thrown out by the owner as a disclaimer to cover them if needed... basically saying beginning this year if we’ve sold enough homes to close the gates and go private, we reserve the right to revoke your membership and offer it to a resident within the community.

 

I guess we shall see over time...

[az2au]

https://www.sterlinggroveclub.com/membership/sterling-grove-resident-memberships both are listed. It is the same monthly but residents are $10k to join. I honestly think it is pretty low risk that memberships will be recalled in any type of timeframe that wouldn't make that initiation basically irrelevant. This assumes that it really is a good course though. I realize it is "Nicklaus Design" but as I would with any course, I'll wait and see how it plays before I declare it near the top of the courses even in the West Valley.

[300_yard_drives]

Whatever you do don’t go to Arrowhead Country Club. There is a fun group of members but the course is falling apart. Arcis has dropped the ball big time. Only 5 maintenance workers maintaining the course and super short staffed everywhere else. Also nearly impossible to get an early tee time as a member. I am a member but taking a break for the summer and going to reassess my options come November

[puttnforthe8]

Sucks to hear this...I quite enjoyed the course.

[Twinsgroupie]

The main issue is the course is now overplayed now. They currently have 600+ members which a year ago was 325'ish. They claim to be fixing things like starting to do an initiation fee again, there was no barrier of entry to join at all. You got a ton of new members that basically if you played once a week it was a good deal, too good of a deal.

It was crazy they were cutting employees during COVID yet every tee time was full everyday. Getting a decent tee time is nearly impossible and the men's league takes all the tee times on Saturday mornings and a skins game Sunday morning. When you're owned by a big corporation its all about turning a profit. The new GM they brought in (revolving staff) claims to know about all these issues and claims to have a plan but we will see. The head pro clearly hates his job and does nothing outside of the bare minimum - example they don't even wash the carts out. If they don't do anything they are going to have a lot more issues with membership in the future. I am going to hang on a little longer and see what happens.

It's sad because this could be an awesome neighborhood course if it was just managed correctly.

[300_yard_drives]

too add to this the head pro is a very good player but his privileges to play when not working were revoked and with his small salary I wouldn’t want to be there if I were him. They also wouldn’t let me join the Sunday skins not mens group on Saturday because i was “too good” and a professional so I was excluded from playing early those despite paying the same amount.

[AzSuperHack76]

I have a couple friends that are members @ Arrowhead CC. The club oversold their super cheap memberships for 6 months. No initiation, $279 a month with no cart fees for singles, $399 for a family membership, insanely great deal but it is now a mess. Tee times are nearly impossible to come by. The couple times I have recently played it's just not worth it, even at the rock bottom membership prices. Just like the above posters, they are waiting for their year to come up.

[MUNIGRIT]

That's too bad. I used to play there a lot in the 2000s. The only thing I remeber is it has my favorite finishing hole in that risk reward par 5 with water around the green.

[MUNIGRIT]

Anyone have any idea what the deal is at Tatum Ranch?

[az2au]

I say this with absolutely no disrespect intended (so it is likely going to sound like I do mean disrespect, I know, but I really don't). I will never understand why people think that they will be happy with a deal like that. A course with uncrowded in conditions, in this market, is going to cost $900-1200/month for golf only (full, not junior) at a minimum. If you're paying $299/month then they have to do something to make it work so it becomes a sliding scale of crowded conditions / outings / tee time difficulty. Inevitably people end up unhappy with this deal. It sucks for everyone and usually results in the club worse off financially than they would have been anyway (significant bump followed by falling off a cliff).

In this area, if you want a decent but crowded club I'd expect $500-$700/month (again, golf only). Less than that and it is likely to be miserable for everyone involved. Way less and it is just a mess. Please don't join a place like that unless you don't want to play much and only like Wednesday afternoons.

[AdExec]

@MUNIGRIT
Tatum was offering a nice deal this time last year. I’m under 40 so the initiation was around 5,000 and dues were only $325/month. Small food and bev minimum. Carts and all other extras are add on fees.
Decent course, decent condition, decent value. I heard from 2 new members at Moon Valley who switched over from Tatum Ranch that weekend tee times during the season are impossible with all the golf groups going on for anything more than a single. Even twosomes getting a tee time was a problem for both guys.
if you live close by, it would be worth the dues for practice sessions and some casual rounds. Consider the 5k a sunk cost. The members I met while previewing seemed like a great group of people. Sounds like they did well getting some under 50 members added over the past year.

[az2au]

I'm a little surprised that Tatum has a harder tee sheet than Moon Valley on a given weekend but my guess is that this ebbs and flows a bit. I find them quite comparable. Both with great members (seriously, if you can't have fun at Moon Valley then you can't have fun and Tatum is pretty similar) and both mid tier private clubs in the Valley. Conditions are generally a bit better at Tatum in my personal experience but not like night and day different since MV fixed the water situation. Overall, I'm put Tatum, MV, AZ CC and Mesa CC all in the same category. Fun clubs that won't break the bank but also come with some compromises. I wouldn't hesitate to be a member at any of them. Lots of good people at all of those clubs and I've had a blast playing at each.

Note-Gainey is likely in the same cost range (or at least used to be) but it sucks as far as golf.

[AdExec]

For anyone in the local market shopping around, @az2au was a huge resource for my still ongoing research to find the perfect club for me.
Ive been a member of two private clubs prior to coming to AZ. One in Los Angeles and one in Palm Springs area. I’ve been researching private clubs for years off and on planning for my next stage of life. No matter where Ive looked pricing has been consistent assuming its a major golf market.
If it sounds too good to be true, it always is. Entry level private clubs will run about the same cost all over. $5,000-$10,000 upfront. $400-$700 monthly dues depending on age/amenities/fees included. Anything cheaper than that is typically a restricted access membership.
Mesa CC, Anthem, Gainey Ranch, Moon Valley, Tatum Ranch, Arrowhead all fit in the bracket. All have similar pros and cons.
Next level private clubs start around 20-50k upfront, dues start at $600 and go up to around $1300 (the lower side of those numbers typically being a junior or non-resident type membership)
3rd tier is 75k-150k upfront, dues start around $1000 and go up to about $2000/month - again the pricing skew is mostly related to age and membership level but still full access. Some in this tier have gone to market based pricing which can get you in the door cheaper, but the dues will be at the top of this bracket and all extra fees will add up quickly. I would also say many clubs offering lower upfront money need revenue and have large assessments coming. This tier of club is probably one of the hardest memberships to get out of if your lifestyle or financial situation changes. Many have long exit lists. If you have the long-term funding comfortably and live in the community or nearby, you can get what was once a very costly membership for a very surprising entry fee and justify this tier of club easier than you probably think.
The top tier (cost wise at least) private clubs are usually 150k-300k+ Upfront and/or real estate ownership required. Dues typically $1600-$3000+ monthly. Something like Scottsdale National is allegedly $5000/monthly plus $100 per day usage fee, and other add-ons as well.
Whisper Rock is one of the most interesting in my opinion. For its reputation as the ultimate golf club, its not completely out of reach cost wise. I’ve heard its invite only, around 75k initiation, and around 18k annual dues. Ive also heard you’ll need a healthy wallet to get in some of the games going on out there.

[BobbyLite]

Much appreciate the offer to host! I may have to take you up on that when I come in town for either a house hunting trip or when we've finally migrated.

I reached out to the membership director last night to get some pricing details. Looks like 5K initiation at that same $535/mo, and the $800 bev/yr. Super reasonable. We're looking in the general area for housing - but nothing solidified yet. I would love to be central Phoenix where a drive anywhere isn't overly painful. I had asked where they were at with golf memberships and she said currently at 380 with a cap at 450. When the par 3 course opens up, not sure if that cap is subject to change...and if it's not, I'd be thrilled with ~380.

How would you say the other facilities are ? - social, dinning, fitness center etc. Membership generally younger (45&under)?

It is nice to hear about the course and its uniqueness. The one thing I've loved about golf in Dallas is the tree-lined fairways. I've much preferred that look vs desert.

[MUNIGRIT]

Thanks. I am just reaching a point where I can join a club. I should have done this a year sooner I'm finding out since i just turned 40. I have played the course a few times at Tatum but it's been awhile. It's a place that could work real easy for me as it isnt far from where I am at in North Scottsdale.

[AdExec]

@BobbyLite
Membership as a whole is great. Ive had as much fun playing with some of the 60/70 year olds as I do with my normal group. Gotta be 100 members under 50 if there is 380 total. I’m not sure the 380 if full golf members though. That seems high to me and I’m out there all the time. They have done an awesome job of recruiting the young professional crowd with the all in one fee monthly dues. Nearly every new member tour I see is in the 30-50 age range.
Fitness center looks old visually, but the equipment is plentiful and in great condition. Most of moon valley needs a cosmetic renovation, but they are doing it one piece at a time. I’ve been impressed enough at what they have been upgrading over the past year that I’m excited to see how it will look in another year.
Dining is getting better and better over last few months. Couple new menus including a butcher block grill menu on the weekends and a newer chef thats been coming up with some good stuff. We’ve been trying to support it more than normal during the downturn trying out some different items and its all been solid but nothing you’ll be blown away with. I havent done any of the social events yet, but we just went under contract on a home at the course so I’ll have to give a future review on that.
The tee sheet has been easy for me. Saturdays get tight after 9am until 11:30am because one of the big men’s groups has a time block for their game. women’s group plays Wednesday mornings I think. You can book tee times in advance up to 2 weeks if you want a specific time. I typically dont book tee times at all and I just work myself in without problem if I’m solo or only a twosome. If I’m bringing a full foursome between Thanksgiving and Easter, I’m booking the tee time at least 3 days in advance for Saturday/Sundays.
Shoot me a message about your house search even if you have a realtor. I‘m one of the top agents in this area and work for Offerpad. I’ll put together our list of coming soon homes that are in renovations now (typically hitting market in next 60 days). Happy to be a resource if you have questions about where to look for your budget and needs.

[Twinsgroupie]

Many of us joined before that new pricing model that was introduced in October last year. We paid an initiation fee and higher rate - we had no say in this new model.

[az2au]

Oh, definitely didn't mean the people that joined previously. I'm talking about the surge of people that joined after it. It is a shame for them but it is a real shame for the people that were already there.

[BigSky59]

I agree with everything you're saying, and the biggest part of this is that the majority of golf consumers these days usually fit into two categories; the thrifty bargain-hunters, and those that have the means to pay those higher level of dues and the desire to support their club. There are SOME golfers that fit between those two categories, but not many. And the number of these bargain-hunter golfers are growing rapidly, especially as consumers get younger. Places like Arrowhead will probably never have the clientele that will pay $800+ a month in dues, maybe back in the day they did, but definitely not now and probably not again unless jobs grow and the population of the West Valley doubles . If you can't get members to join and pay that monthly amount, the club is going to be forced to change their tactics and pricing model to meet the market they're in, otherwise they're going to end up a public course. I would imagine that's exactly what happened, and why they are where they are. Up "north" between the 101 and Cave Creek you certainly have the demographics and clientele who are willing to pay that higher amount, and in-turn you get a more enjoyable experience with better amenities and atmosphere. Most of the newer/latest members at clubs like Arrowhead, and other similar clubs, are part of the GolfNow.com generation. They're looking for a bargain regardless of the pain they endure when they try to make a tee time. They are looking for that bargain-bin rate and they usually choose not to support their golf shop or their club. They haul in all of their own beer from home, they buy the 3-gloves-for-$12 deal at Costco and they buy their balls off Amazon, and demand that their dues stay under $300, but then will turn around and be disappointed in course conditions or overcrowded tee sheets and pace of play.

Essentially, to have this desirable golf environment, you need a supportive membership with the means and wants to invest in the club. The old saying, you get what you pay for.

[vallygolf]

To these points I am considering reactivating my membership at a local club that was near capacity for memberships (450), but now is back in the mid 300's after a recent price hike. I would gladly pay more probably up to 2000/mo if I could get open tee sheets and a true private course. Nothing like that exists close enough to justify. Monthly at the above course is nearing 1k, Went from $500 when I joined 7-8 years ago to where it is now. Course is good enough, with really good practice areas, From my perspective I wish they would set the rate even a little higher.... no chance though as they have lost many members with the recent changes.

[300_yard_drives]

Arrowhead made a killing last year. It is 100% on arcis. If they can keep 600 golf members and another 300+ gym members while have 5 persons on the maintenance staff at the club they will do it. There is zero care about the product they are putting out. I would bet their payroll can’t be more than $85,000 a month. All the revenue that Arrowhead made last year goes to the dumpy courses that Arcis owns and loses money on. Phoenix area is a very interesting golfing market with a lot of over priced while lack luster courses and a high demand for golf. The conditions at premier public courses are rarely good and usually decent at best for what you pay.

[Bonneville85308]

To take away the pro's playing privileges when not working is an absolute jerk move on the part of Arcis...but sounds like the pro wouldn't have been able to find an open tee time anyway...

[sdemo]

@AdExec Really appreciate this post, as well as your others in this thread. I'm planning on taking a tour soon with the MV Membership Director and you've already answered most of my questions! Are there any local/national membership benefits (or restrictions) now with their C-BIGG ownership? I have some buddies at their Massachusetts property and would hate to be excluded from their member-guest because I'm a member at a course on the other side of the country :)... conversely, would be great if I had access to other C-BIGG properties!