PCC Experiences under the WHS

[davep043]

In many of the discussions of the WHS, we've talked a lot about the PCC, and how it was to be calculated. This early in the year in northern Virginia, we haven't had a lot of snow or sleet, but we have had pretty regular rain, and relatively cold temperatures. I've played just one round at my home course, but we do have a few die-hards who're out there even in frigid temperatures. Even so, we've only had one day where a PCC adjustment has been applied. The average differential was 6.2 strokes above Handicap Index, with only two scores (out of 17 posted on the same day) of "net par" or better. The PCC was 1. I still don't know what the equation used to calculate the PCC is, but now I have one data point. It might be interesting (or not) to hear from others with their real-life experience with the new PCC calculation method.

[ThinkingPlus]

I have posted 22 scores under the WHS so far. There have been no PCC adjustments. One of those rounds was played with 20+ mph wind. So I am still on PCC watch.

[davep043]

One advantage I have is as Handicap Chair, I can get pretty complete reports even on the days I don't play. I actually looked at all of Virginia for the entire year, and saw I saw PCC adjustments to both ends of the spectrum, from +3 (difficult conditions) to -1 (easy). My limitation is that I can only easily get reports of players from my own club, not visitors. For the one day we had a PCC, there were 25 rounds posted on our course that day, but only 21 from my club, and 4 of those didn't post on the same day.

[ThinkingPlus]

I don't have any visibility into our club's posted scores. However, my guess is that we don't have a lot of diligent posters. I am not sure if PCC adjustments get made retroactively or if there is an expiration time period for any given date for late posters.

[davep043]

The rules are pretty clear on this, the PCC is based only on the scores that are posted on the same day of play, with a couple of additional restrictions. But the PCC is applied to everyone who posts a score for play on that day, regardless of when they actually post the score.

[Sawgrass]

This is an interesting topic to follow, but I'm particularly curious as to what temperature was played in which a Virginian describes as "frigid."

50* (?)

[davep043]

I know, its not actually ice-age stuff. Looking at what could be accurate data, they would have started at something like 35*, warming up to maybe 46* by the time they were done.

[Roadking2003]

It would be interesting to know more about PCC. I get the feeling that there is not much consistency in the process. I always distrust secret calculations and people who just say "trust me". I'll trust you when I see exactly what your are doing. "Transparancy is the currency of trust".

 

I've posted 17 rounds and have two PCC events. A plus 1 and a minus 1.

 

I was in the DR in January and played Punta Espada in 30 MPH winds, no PCC. The next day we played Teeth of the Dog in minor winds and got a PCC of +1. It would be interesting to see the actual info, but I suspect that no PCC on the Punta Espada day was due to insufficient postings. But we will never know.

[ThinkingPlus]

Sorry. I wasn't clear. Does a PCC calc get performed as soon as the min number of rounds get posted on the day after? What if 6 scores are posted on the day of play, but 5 more are posted a week later; does a PCC calc get performed at tha time? Lots of permutations along these lines. I just can't remember if the process was discussed in this kind of detail here in one of the WHS threads.

[gripandrip]

I've posted about 5 scores. Had one adjusted to +2. Feb 7 at OCN in the afternoon. Pretty cold by Florida standards and with the wind was whipping at about 20-25. I would guess that enough people have to play to get a statistically realistic adjustment. OCN is always crowded.

[davep043]

A minimum of 8 scores must be posted on the same day of play to even consider a PCC. As I mentioned in the one case at my club, an average variance of over 6 strokes triggered a PCC of +1, with 17 scores posted. My understanding is that a typical variance would be on the order of 2 or 3 strokes, depending on the mix of handicaps playing, so on that day the scores were something like 3 to 4 strokes higher than would normally be expected.

[bortass]

We had a day with a PCC adjustment of +2. It was in the 50s with winds around 7 MPH and gusts up to 15. The course was very wet and there was a large group of golfers that had blocked off about 6 tee times on top of the usual people that would have played. So my guess is we had a lot of scores posted on a day that wasn't great for scoring by people that hadn't played in a while. I have no proof for my guess though.

 

I've seen other days with similar conditions but there was no PCC adjustments. That's why I think it was driven by that large block of tee times.

[Hawkeye77]

Since it seems to look at overall scores for the day vs. usual scoring patterns, is weather explicitly looked at or just assumed to be an influence?

[davep043]

It is purely based on scores. Weather could be the primary factor, or length of rough, or pin positions, anything that influences scores should have an effect.

[duffer987]

I'll throw in here what I put in the WHS thread a couple weeks ago:

Had my first PCC adjustment yesterday. Sunday started with the first 6 holes being fun strong winds in the upper teens, low twenties, while the last dozen were in the thirties with occasional gusts hitting forty. It was bonkers; driver on a 190yd par 3, couple holes later it's driver/PW on a 460yder. Oscillating balls on the greens was pretty regular and on some holes you really struggled to get it to not roll away long enough to putt.

Fortunately none of the trees on the course fell over while we were there, just the surrounding neighbourhood and onto the highway. All that to say, we got a 1.0 PCC and looks like it led to a 0.9 reduction.

 

 

[Augster]

So a nice May day in Minneapolis then. Got it. :)

[gripandrip]

Sounds about right with the score I posted.

[Augster]

From my understanding, no PCC calculation based on your scenario. The minimum 8 scores need to be posted on the day of play. Once the calculation is done (let’s pretend it’s at 3am), no more scores will add in to the PCC. But if the minimum 8 was reached and there was a PCC adjustment based on those 8 (or more) scores, the scores posted later will also get the PCC adjustment.

[ThinkingPlus]

Thanks. We will likely never have a PCC adjustment. Oh well.

[davep043]

This is exactly my understanding. We will be making it clear to all of our members that its very important to post scores on the same day they play, for just this reason.

[Newby]

Rule 4

If a player does not submit their score on the day of play: Their Handicap Index will not be updated in time for the next day (see Rule 5.4), and Their score will not be included in the daily playing conditions calculation (PCC) (see Rule 5.6).

When a score is posted to the player’s scoring record after the day of play and the PCC for the day the round was played has already been performed, the PCC adjustment should still be applied to the player’s Score Differential calculation even though the player's score was not included in the PCC.

If a score is submitted out of sequence: l The score should be added to the player’s scoring record in the correct chronological order. The published PCC adjustment for the golf course played, on the day the round was played, should be applied to the Score Differential calculation. The player’s Handicap Index should be recalculated.

Note: The Handicap Committee should investigate any repeated occurrence of a player failing to submit a score in a timely manner (see Rule 7.1b).

If there is no evidence that the player has acted for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage, all scores submitted in the intervening period should stand for handicap purposes.

[rogolf]

I believe it is all statistically based, so with only 8 scores available (small sample size), I'd suggest it is improbable that a PCC adjustment is made unless there is a large difference in expected versus actual. If many scores are available (large sample size), adjustments could be made on smaller differences between expected and actual.

We'll just have to see how it all plays out. I doubt that a simple "formula" could be worked out from posted scores and adjustments made - too many variables.

[Newby]

PCC includes mechanisms that:

Take into consideration the conditions in which a round was played.

Remember previously demonstrated ability within a defined period of time.

Cap the upward movement of a player’s Handicap Index within a defined period of time.

Apply additional adjustments to a player’s Handicap Index when an exceptional score is submitted.

[davep043]

I agree, and most people won't be able to see the scores used in the PCC calculation, you really need to have Admin access to GHIN to get a report that makes any sense. That's why I posted the data I had, to give some idea of the PCC adjustment as compared to the variance and the number of scores posted.

[davep043]

That list is from the Handicap Index Calculation section, some of the items are not included in the PCC but rather in other parts of the calculations.

[Mr. Bean]

PCC is calculated based on the scores available at the time the calculation is performed (around here 02.00 am). After that PCC is not recalculated.

[Newby]

Yes. I inadvertently copied the wrong section.5.6/1 – Procedure for Performing Playing Conditions Calculation

The playing conditions calculation (PCC) will be an automatic calculation and can be summarized as follows:

1. Calculate the expected score for each eligible player.

2. Calculate the expected standard deviation of Score Differentials at the golf course, incorporating all applicable Slope Ratings.

3. Establish how many players scored better or worse than expected on the day.

4. The proportion of players submitting a score equal to, better than or worse than their expected scoring range determines whether a PCC adjustment is required.

5. If an adjustment is required, determine how much harder or easier the golf course played that day.

6. Based on these calculations, determine any final PCC adjustment required for play on that day.

[antip]

In my neck of the woods, with good sized competition fields (80-200 players), the biggest driving variable on PCC is the nature of the playing cohort: large number of players from other clubs, far more likely that PCC is on the plus side.

[Newby]

Is that the way it is turning out?

[crapula]

Waiting for people at my course to not post their score when it was an obvious easy day. Then when they post a day later their handicap is higher than it should be.

On the other side I am very eager to see what it does. There are days in Illinois that are brutal, 30+ winds and cold and rain.