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PCC Experiences under the WHS


davep043
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2 hours ago, davep043 said:

My best guess, they keep the calculation "secret" for one of two reasons, perhaps both.  First, there are a million ways they could do the calculation, but there's no single "correct" way to do it.  If its public information, you'll certainly have a million people offering a million different ways it should be done, because they each know better than the USGA and R&A, and telling everyone how screwed up it is.  So keeping the calculation private provokes relatively few complaints.  Second, they know that the calculation may not work out exactly as they have intended.  If the details aren't known, they can tweak the calculation down the road to make it work they way they want it to, without millions of people using the change as proof that the USGA and R&A are so ignorant that they screwed up this simple calculation when they first developed it.

As @Newby has asked, would it matter if you did have the details of the PCC?  Do you have access to every score posted at your home course for each day, so that you can check that its being used correctly?

To me, there are many more important things to be "really upset about."  

 

Excellent recap and guesses. Sounds about right.

 

But did we here in the States have a PCC adjust prior to WHS ? I don't recall such a thing. :classic_blink:

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9 hours ago, antip said:

The formulation employed in this country is now (post WHS tweaks) producing dramatically different results. On my data: 18 months prior to the change (Jan 2020) 34 out of 72 rounds had PCC adjustment, in the 18 months since then 6 from 93 rounds adjusted. Perhaps we can blame climate change in the southern hemisphere?🙃

 

2 minutes ago, davep043 said:

To my knowledge we've never had anything similar.  

 

It's antip's thinking plus my terrible memory. :classic_biggrin:

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20 hours ago, antip said:

There are virtually no PCC adjustments around here any more since the early 2020 change. In other words, PCC simply does not capture any significant variations in course difficulty now.

I have had a few, oddly enough most are negative changes. I'm guessing they occur on exceptionally good weather days where there is very little wind, the back 9 at my club plays dramatically different when the wind is down or has switched its normal direction

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6 hours ago, Augster said:

Much ado about nothing. 

 

In general, I agree with this.

 

I just find it odd that I have had none in my scoring record. Has any one in this thread from Canada seen a PCC? It's entirely possible Golf Canada has messed up.

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5 minutes ago, jvincent said:

 

In general, I agree with this.

 

I just find it odd that I have had none in my scoring record. Has any one in this thread from Canada seen a PCC? It's entirely possible Golf Canada has messed up.

Yes, it is active in Canada.  I've had at least three PCC adjustments in my scoring record since it was introduced.

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16 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Yes, it is active in Canada.  I've had at least three PCC adjustments in my scoring record since it was introduced.

Thanks.

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3 hours ago, BasK said:

I'm in the Netherlands and have posted about 25 scores this year. For 12 of those the PCC score was -0.5.

 

Most of these were on the same course. Could this be an indication that the course rating is wrong?

Is the WHS different in the Netherlands (EGA)? The values for PCC in my manuals (CONGU and USGA) are -1.0, 0.0, +1.0, +2.0 or +3.0

Edited by Newby
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Saw my first PCC -1 adjustment in many months this weekend. I had a decent round and my index would have gone down by 0.2 but then overnight the PCC kicked in and it only went down by 0.1 instead.

 

Unfortunately, that 0.1 drop was still enough to make my course handicap one stroke lower for today's round. D'Oh! Guess I better play hard. 

 

 

From August 18, 2021 I will be away from GolfWRX for a while.

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Finally had the first one show up for me, played Saturday with very wet conditions after the tropical storm rolled through Friday. They had all of the tee markers moved up so the course played really short and had a -1 PCC show up the next day. Too bad I played like crap anyway.

 

Then lost a ball in the middle of the first fairway Sunday morning as there was an unexpected new "pond" that showed up with all the rain. Could see my ball right in the middle, just out of reach and didn't feel like taking off shoes/socks to wade out and get it. Grr.

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3 hours ago, larrybud said:

Folks want to know the nitty gritty details.  Many of us have speculated on how the statistics are implemented, but without the fine details it is impossible to replicate.  Good link though.  Thanks.

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Saw my first PCC adjustment today.  +3.   Extreme wind (on some holes a ball would not sit on a tee).   Two players out of 56 shot handicap or better (37 and 36 stableford points).  Looking at the results for other recent comps at my club, it seems like ~20% of players shoot handicap or better on a typical day.  

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3 hours ago, jimbo123 said:

Saw my first PCC adjustment today.  +3.   Extreme wind (on some holes a ball would not sit on a tee).   Two players out of 56 shot handicap or better (37 and 36 stableford points).  Looking at the results for other recent comps at my club, it seems like ~20% of players shoot handicap or better on a typical day.  

 

20% is the expected value, the top 4 out of last 20 rounds should be 36 points or more. Or, in other words, every 1 in 5 golfers in an event should be playing to or beating their handicaps.

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3 hours ago, Halebopp said:

 

20% is the expected value, the top 4 out of last 20 rounds should be 36 points or more. Or, in other words, every 1 in 5 golfers in an event should be playing to or beating their handicaps.

Prior to 2020, the USGA handicap system (with best 10 of 20) had 25% playing to their handicap on a typical day. Now with 8 of 20 it's 20%.

 

But under the old USGA way of doing it you had to manually calculate what it meant to "play to your handicap" because it wasn't relative to par. It was relative to course rating.

 

Under the current system, the guys I play with feel like they are being penalized in some way. Their handicap is adjusted downwards by the difference in par and course rating and we all play tees where the course rating is under par. I love it because I know if I'm a 14 (course) handicap then I will be 14-over or better 1-in-5 rounds. They hate it because under the old system they were frequently under net par (especially the older guys who play the way-forward tees). 

 

That accounting for the par vs. course rating difference when figure course handicap is the best thing to come out of the USGA since forever in my opinion. Totally common sensical but it took them about 50 years to figure it out!

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On 7/25/2021 at 7:45 PM, North Butte said:

Prior to 2020, the USGA handicap system (with best 10 of 20) had 25% playing to their handicap on a typical day. Now with 8 of 20 it's 20%.

 

But under the old USGA way of doing it you had to manually calculate what it meant to "play to your handicap" because it wasn't relative to par. It was relative to course rating.

 

Under the current system, the guys I play with feel like they are being penalized in some way. Their handicap is adjusted downwards by the difference in par and course rating and we all play tees where the course rating is under par. I love it because I know if I'm a 14 (course) handicap then I will be 14-over or better 1-in-5 rounds. They hate it because under the old system they were frequently under net par (especially the older guys who play the way-forward tees). 

 

That accounting for the par vs. course rating difference when figure course handicap is the best thing to come out of the USGA since forever in my opinion. Totally common sensical but it took them about 50 years to figure it out!

Not sure that I see the point of comparing with par. Your resultant handicap is based on the differential which does not involve par.

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1 hour ago, Newby said:

Not sure that I see the point of comparing with par. Your resultant handicap is based on the differential which does not involve par.

 

In the world outside of CONGU par affects the Course Handicap, which affects the Adjusted Gross Score, which is a part of the differential equation.

 

But North Butte, in my opinion, used the wrong words as the old USGA course hcp, or what ever they called it, wasn't related to par nor the course rating, only the slope rating and they had to use a completely different concept of Target Score to figure out what they'd need to shoot to get to actual net par.

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A golfer with handicap index of 12.7 plays a course that's Par 72, course rating of 69 and slope rating of 125.

 

Under the old USGA system his Course Handicap was 14. The number that Halebopp refers to as Target Score would be 69+(125/113)*12.7 = 83.

 

However, a typical golfer under that system would consider "playing to his handicap" to mean net even par which is 72+14 = 86.

 

The system was set up so that he is expected to shoot 83 or better about 1 time in 4. He'll shoot 86 or better much more often than that.

 

The new system correctly sets his Course Handicap at (125/113)*12.7 - (72-69) = 11 rather than 14 because it includes the difference between Course Rating and Par. So the same golfer, same course, some handicap index will now have net even par of 83 when he plays from those tees. Which is the "Target Score" the system expects his to shoot 1 time in 5.

 

Under the old system golfers who always played forward tees (meaning tees with Course Rating less than Par) were experiencing an apparent disconnect between their scoring versus par (net scores or Stableford points) and how their handicap index went up and down. Under the new system it works more in line with the "1 in 5" type of reasoning.

 

Of course by far the biggest advantage of the new system is that players in the same game playing from different tees no longer have to do manual adjustments by adding or subtracting points from their scores to reflect the differences in course ratings. That alone makes the new system far, far preferable. But it does have the side effect of making the 1-in-5 thing actually apply correctly. 

 

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On 7/27/2021 at 5:54 AM, North Butte said:

A golfer with handicap index of 12.7 plays a course that's Par 72, course rating of 69 and slope rating of 125.

 

Under the old USGA system his Course Handicap was 14. The number that Halebopp refers to as Target Score would be 69+(125/113)*12.7 = 83.

 

However, a typical golfer under that system would consider "playing to his handicap" to mean net even par which is 72+14 = 86.

 

 

I would agree that, regardless of COURSE handicap, a player would think(?) he "played to his handicap" if he shot a net of even par.

 

Of course he'd be wrong.

 

One plays to ones handicap when one's round DIFFERENTIAL is equal to or lower than his actual INDEX going into the round.

 

That happened LESS THAN 25% of the time under the old system and I'm guessing it now happens less than 20% of the time now.

 

 

On 7/27/2021 at 3:09 AM, Newby said:

Not sure that I see the point of comparing with par. Your resultant handicap is based on the differential which does not involve par.

 

This is exactly right.

 

 

 

Edited by nsxguy

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23 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

I would agree that, regardless of COURSE handicap, a player would think(?) he "played to his handicap" if he shot a net of even par.

 

Of course he'd be wrong.

 

One plays to ones handicap when one's round DIFFERENTIAL is equal to or lower than his actual INDEX going into the round.

 

 

As of the start of 2020, the course handicap takes par into account.  "The new calculation for Course Handicap will be Handicap Index x (Slope Rating/113) + (Course Rating- Par)."  (https://golfshot.com/blog/2020-world-handicap-changes-handicap-index-calculation)

 

So, a net score of even par is equivalent to the differential being equal to your index.

 

So that player would not be wrong.

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On 7/27/2021 at 5:54 AM, North Butte said:

A golfer with handicap index of 12.7 plays a course that's Par 72, course rating of 69 and slope rating of 125.

 

Under the old USGA system his Course Handicap was 14. The number that Halebopp refers to as Target Score would be 69+(125/113)*12.7 = 83.

 

However, a typical golfer under that system would consider "playing to his handicap" to mean net even par which is 72+14 = 86.

 

 

On 7/30/2021 at 9:57 PM, nsxguy said:

 

I would agree that, regardless of COURSE handicap, a player would think(?) he "played to his handicap" if he shot a net of even par.

 

Of course he'd be wrong.

 

One plays to ones handicap when one's round DIFFERENTIAL is equal to or lower than his actual INDEX going into the round.

 

That happened LESS THAN 25% of the time under the old system and I'm guessing it now happens less than 20% of the time now.

 

 

1 hour ago, lchang said:

 

As of the start of 2020, the course handicap takes par into account.  "The new calculation for Course Handicap will be Handicap Index x (Slope Rating/113) + (Course Rating- Par)."  (https://golfshot.com/blog/2020-world-handicap-changes-handicap-index-calculation)

 

So, a net score of even par is equivalent to the differential being equal to your index.

 

So that player would not be wrong.

 

Please note.

 

The poster, and the part of his post I quoted, was talking about the PREVIOUS system. patriot.gif

 

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