SIM Drivers: Can only hit cuts and can't close the face!

[GooseHook]

4 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Face angle doesn't' change (based on the traditional defn).   The d-plane tilts.  Not the same thing - two completely different axis of rotation of the head (despite the fact that the results are somewhat similar).  

 

Yes there is both a directional and a spin component to the lie able being off - but Tutelman covers both of those.  And Tutelman's calc's are fairly straight forward.   You can review most of them yourself if you don't believe them.

 

But if you have any calculations to dispute his results and support your opinions, feel free to share them.  Most people here are fairly open to counter arguments when some actual substance is used to try and support them.

 

 

 

I think this is the key factor here, and especially down to each individual golfer. Whether you hit -1 or +5 angle of attack, that's a seriously different D-Plane with a driver and guys are probably playing with a loft range of 7-12.5 degrees in the SIM drivers. Would it result in huge changes in ball flight? Probably not, but spin axis would be noticeable if you were doing robotic testing. 

 

The debate here about lie probably deserves its own thread, but staying on topic- there is plenty of on-course evidence on the forums and ~8 months of evidence that this line of driver heads is indeed fade biased. 

[Kev-Golfnut61]

2 hours ago, GooseHook said:

 

I think this is the key factor here, and especially down to each individual golfer. Whether you hit -1 or +5 angle of attack, that's a seriously different D-Plane with a driver and guys are probably playing with a loft range of 7-12.5 degrees in the SIM drivers. Would it result in huge changes in ball flight? Probably not, but spin axis would be noticeable if you were doing robotic testing. 

 

The debate here about lie probably deserves its own thread, but staying on topic- there is plenty of on-course evidence on the forums and ~8 months of evidence that this line of driver heads is indeed fade biased. 

Sorry, I am late to the discussion... Without having to go through all of the post, does this include the Sim Max driver?

Thanks!

[GooseHook]

4 minutes ago, Kev-Golfnut61 said:

Sorry, I am late to the discussion... Without having to go through all of the post, does this include the Sim Max driver?

Thanks!

Not as much, but I use the Sim Max and definitely feel it to be fade biased.

[OhYeahPlayer]

1 hour ago, GooseHook said:

Not as much, but I use the Sim Max and definitely feel it to be fade biased.

I do as well. Usual shot shape is straight or a baby cut with most clubs, turns into a ~30-40 foot cut with this driver. Much more of a cut than my previous G400 Max. The only way I hit this club left is a dead pull. 

 

Here's my attempt at a solution. Probably increased swingweight by two points, but I'm anticipating cutting it from 45 3/4" down to 45" soon so not too worried about it (and lead tape is easy enough to mess around with). Haven't had a chance to get a good range session in or take it on the course yet but hoping this will help a little, I'll try and keep this thread updated.

 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by arenapoutine

[Hack Daddy]

54 minutes ago, arenapoutine said:

I do as well. Usual shot shape is straight or a baby cut with most clubs, turns into a ~30-40 foot cut with this driver. Much more of a cut than my previous G400 Max. The only way I hit this club left is a dead pull. 

 

Here's my attempt at a solution. Probably increased swingweight by two points, but I'm anticipating cutting it from 45 3/4" down to 45" soon so not too worried about it (and lead tape is easy enough to mess around with). Haven't had a chance to get a good range session in or take it on the course yet but hoping this will help a little, I'll try and keep this thread updated.

 

 

 

 

Another example of flatter than standard. And flatter than your previous driver. You have the right idea with the weight on the heel, but keep in mind - off the rack draw drivers are more upright lie angle. 

[OhYeahPlayer]

45 minutes ago, Hack Daddy said:

 

Another example of flatter than standard. And flatter than your previous driver. You have the right idea with the weight on the heel, but keep in mind - off the rack draw drivers are more upright lie angle. 

I have the hosel setting one click lower than standard loft but on the upright side, so playing loft 8.25 and lie 59.5 - stock G400 Max is 58, I'm actually more upright than before.

[getitdaily]

34 minutes ago, arenapoutine said:

I have the hosel setting one click lower than standard loft but on the upright side, so playing loft 8.25 and lie 59.5 - stock G400 Max is 58, I'm actually more upright than before.

No whammies, no whammies, no whaaaaa...dang.

 

@Hack Daddy? No?

[GooseHook]

2 hours ago, arenapoutine said:

I have the hosel setting one click lower than standard loft but on the upright side, so playing loft 8.25 and lie 59.5 - stock G400 Max is 58, I'm actually more upright than before.

 

Same, I just made the same adjustment today but was limited in what I could do on the range. My club has a par 3 that is right behind the range, with a net I can carry when hitting full drives so I had to hit some pansy slap cuts. I'm also coming back from a neck strain so I'm not really swinging that well. 

 

My only reservation is opening the face too much to go along with that loft reduction. May have to play it in just the upright position. 

 

@arenapoutine if you cut your driver down that's a great chance to get some hotmelt in the forward/heel area.

[Trap Junior]

I tried the Miz ST200 and couldn;t stop it going left.  Tried the SIM yesterday and couldn't stop it going right.

 

My path is 1-2 degrees in to out.  These things were going 20-40 yds right. I didn;t hit one left of where I was aiming. 

 

The Mizuno I didn't hit one right of where I was aiming.

[Red4282]

18 minutes ago, Trap Junior said:

I tried the Miz ST200 and couldn;t stop it going left.  Tried the SIM yesterday and couldn't stop it going right.

 

My path is 1-2 degrees in to out.  These things were going 20-40 yds right. I didn;t hit one left of where I was aiming. 

 

The Mizuno I didn't hit one right of where I was aiming.

To be expected as the mizuno is draw biased and the SIM is fade biased

[getitdaily]

38 minutes ago, Trap Junior said:

I tried the Miz ST200 and couldn;t stop it going left.  Tried the SIM yesterday and couldn't stop it going right.

 

My path is 1-2 degrees in to out.  These things were going 20-40 yds right. I didn;t hit one left of where I was aiming. 

 

The Mizuno I didn't hit one right of where I was aiming.

Move the loft sleeve into higher loft to close the face. These hard right misses from sim are more the result of an open face than CoG bias. CoG bias helps, but hard right misses are a lot more due to face to path being too open.

[Trap Junior]

13 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Move the loft sleeve into higher loft to close the face. These hard right misses from sim are more the result of an open face than CoG bias. CoG bias helps, but hard right misses are a lot more due to face to path being too open.

Ok thanks. Will give that a go.   At the start of yesterday's round I had it open 1.5 degrees at 8.25 degree loft with the weight all the way on the  toe as from Trackman data I didn't like the negative spin axis.  I never considered the lie yesterday or making it more lofted as left has always been my miss.

Anyway I squared the face and moved the weight to slightly heel side.  Was only a little better but I hit the biggest right shot in about 12 years today that went off the planet right.  I'll give it one more round in the upright and/or lofted up position before I drive my car over this repeatedly.

 

I've never been ultra straight but never had an off the planet miss.  I hit about 60% of fairways typically.  With Sim its about 35%.

[Trap Junior]

20 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Move the loft sleeve into higher loft to close the face. These hard right misses from sim are more the result of an open face than CoG bias. CoG bias helps, but hard right misses are a lot more due to face to path being too open.

The thing is one of the things I've always struggled with is the face being too closed to path and hitting a pull draw to the left rough or pull hook on a low forgiving driver.  My path is pretty neutral 1-2 degrees in to out but tend to get the face 2 degrees closed to path.  That's why I had the set up 'anti left'.  So to actually close a driver by lofting up and making it more upright is the last thing I thought I would ever do with this driver!

It was my first round with it yesterday.

My confidence was shot after it.

[Trap Junior]

On 9/21/2020 at 7:50 AM, Valtiel said:

 

I think he is asking whether or not it the fade tendencies people are reporting are related to strike or face angle. The two get conflated a lot when drivers are referred to being "biased" one way or the other, combined with the still nebulous claim/wisdom that heel/toe biased weighting impacts face closure rate. 

@getitdaily, the GolfTec CG measurements show the Sim standard being pretty significantly fade biased, so I don't think that is really a question.  

Link for the CG location?

I googled GolfTec and it says it has a low CG location to lower spin.  Low CG increases spin no???

[getitdaily]

9 minutes ago, Trap Junior said:

The thing is one of the things I've always struggled with is the face being too closed to path and hitting a pull draw to the left rough or pull hook on a low forgiving driver.  My path is pretty neutral 1-2 degrees in to out but tend to get the face 2 degrees closed to path.  That's why I had the set up 'anti left'.  So to actually close a driver by lofting up and making it more upright is the last thing I thought I would ever do with this driver!

It was my first round with it yesterday.

My confidence was shot after it.

Have had this driver all year and it took about a month to dial it in. My advice - be very methodical...

 

Start with the driver in std loft and std weight config and hit 7-10 balls. Find out what the flight is doing. Start right and go right then you know face isn't squaring enough. Adjust the face angle. Try the upright and std lie and observe flight. Once you get consistency in start line and curve, dial in the sliding weight to reduce or increase whatever curve you want. 

 

Don't move the sliding weight until you've got face to path under control.

 

For every setting change,  hit at least 7-10 balls to get an idea of what the change did to flight.

Edited October 3, 2020 by getitdaily

[Trap Junior]

18 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Have had this driver all year and it took about a month to dial it in. My advice - be very methodical...

 

Start with the driver in std loft and std weight config and hit 7-10 balls. Find out what the flight is doing. Start right and go right then you know face isn't squaring enough. Adjust the face angle. Try the upright and std lie and observe flight. Once you get consistency in start line and curve, dial in the sliding weight to reduce or increase whatever curve you want. 

 

Don't move the sliding weight until you've got face to path under control.

 

For every setting change,  hit at least 7-10 balls to get an idea of what the change did to flight.

Good plan.  I'd be from an old school of its got to hit it straight on your first swing to be a keeper.  I'll tinker with it for another while and then give it to someone I dont like for free to wreck their heads with it LOL.

 

I've just made it more upright int he house now.  Will hit balls with it on the course sometime next week and then close the face if no joy with that.  I'll leave the weight in neutral for now too.  Or would you change the face angle first and then try upright if that doesn't work?

 

Edited October 3, 2020 by Trap Junior

[Valtiel]

20 minutes ago, Trap Junior said:

Link for the CG location?

I googled GolfTec and it says it has a low CG location to lower spin.  Low CG increases spin no???

https://www.golftec.com/blog/2020/01/under-the-hood-what-sets-the-taylormade-sim-apart-from-the-rest/

Low CG = lower spin, higher launch. Remember the fundamentals of vertical gear effects. 

[toddmanley]

The methodical tinkering approach is what I had to go through too. Pretty much spent a couple of range sessions (along with reading this thread) to ultimately get my SIM to a good place. Going full upright helped me a ton - then adding one click of loft to close the face a touch. I then experimented with some extra weights and location (15g heel, 14g in full draw on the slider) to get the SIM where I needed it. 

 

Be mindful of your swing mechanics as you experiment. I’ve been taking lessons over the past 6 weeks which has coincided with the timing of getting my SIM from the club fitter/builder. My old swing was roughly 5* in-to-out club path with ~5* closed face. After my lesson last week my teacher had me grain one change that got me down to 2* in-to-out club path and 2* closed face. The change and results we pretty immediate - the dispersion on my missed shots where way down. Instead of being 5-10 yards left or right on bad swings I was perhaps 1-2 yards off the fairway. 
 

Back to the SIM - with my own swing journey I’m not going to touch my setting and stick with how it’s setup. Once the new swing is grooved and I’m hitting 70%+ fairways will I only then play around with adjusting anything. 

[getitdaily]

1 hour ago, Trap Junior said:

Good plan.  I'd be from an old school of its got to hit it straight on your first swing to be a keeper.  I'll tinker with it for another while and then give it to someone I dont like for free to wreck their heads with it LOL.

 

I've just made it more upright int he house now.  Will hit balls with it on the course sometime next week and then close the face if no joy with that.  I'll leave the weight in neutral for now too.  Or would you change the face angle first and then try upright if that doesn't work?

 

Upright lie will really only help with start line. It'll mildly affect side spin but jot enough to make a difference. Toy with upright and std. Toy with face angle in both settings. Find the lie and l9ft that produces solid flight. Then dial in sidespin with the movable weight 

[Trap Junior]

I see Rose and McIlroy are playing their sim in an open position by delofting it.  Thought I read someone earlier saying they lofted up.

[Red4282]

6 hours ago, Trap Junior said:

The thing is one of the things I've always struggled with is the face being too closed to path and hitting a pull draw to the left rough or pull hook on a low forgiving driver.  My path is pretty neutral 1-2 degrees in to out but tend to get the face 2 degrees closed to path.  That's why I had the set up 'anti left'.  So to actually close a driver by lofting up and making it more upright is the last thing I thought I would ever do with this driver!

It was my first round with it yesterday.

My confidence was shot after it.

You have to realize no two heads are alike. I know its been stated that face angle is more responsible for missing right than the cog placement, but in my opinion the cg placement causes the face angle to some degree in many players including myself. Another tidbit is toe strikes. While many drivers out there will snap pretty hard on a toe strike, the sim just will just want to stay straight... if path is in to out, you will just get a big block.

[getitdaily]

Played today with the new setup...

17g backweight, 10g just toe side of center, upright, loft up from 9.0 to 9.75.

 

11/14 fairways. The 3 misses

- Bad right on 9. Hole that just flat out doesn't fit my eye. Bailout is right and i did. Water left.

- Slight pull that didn't carry a bunker on 10

-just missed carrying bunker on 12

 

Good first round in the more forgiving setup. 

 

[dlow206]

I need to stop messing around with the settings on my SIM Max.

 

I found that the right setting for me is the Upright setting. Stock weight plus 4 grams of hot melt.

 

Still fades a bit too much at times, but mostly got rid of the ball that starts right and goes further right. Now the start line is more to the left or straight. When I hit the ball right I have a nice baby fade. 

[Trap Junior]

Ok.  Today I tried it with the upright setting.  Improvement.   Did that for maybe 4 holes hitting 2 balls a hole straight or right rough with slight push fade.  Then tried the lofted up to close the face.  Hitting left side of the fairway with it but still wanting to fade a tough so put the weight on the heel.  Hitting it ok but still cant hit a slight draw with it which is my normal shape.   Think it might be the shaft.  Using that crappy ventus 6x version.  I think I need a Fubuki in it which is my favourite shaft.

 

I havent hit one pull draw with this club in 2 rounds and I've hit close to 30 drives with it.  I thought I'd be snap hooking this thing before I tried it.  Most of my shots are mediocre, either on the fairway or 5 yds in the right rough.

 

My spin axis was negative on trackman with it.  Trackman frequently doesn't give me the same results as on the course.  On the course its a right miss every time.  I think if I have a shaft with a bit more kick in it it might do the trick in allowing me to easier get that hint of draw.  Have a fubukiand will stick an adaptor on it sometime over the next week or so. 

 

Oh one more question.  I have been gripping down 1 3/4'' on the shaft as I plan on playing it at 44.5'' and haven't cut it down yet as I don;t plan on keeping this shaft.  I think the swingweight will be too light though at that length.  Would a heavier back weight be ok or will I change the characteristics of the club?  What length are the tour boys using? 45.75'' seems crazy long to me

Edited October 6, 2020 by Trap Junior

[getitdaily]

36 minutes ago, Trap Junior said:

Ok.  Today I tried it with the upright setting.  Improvement.   Did that for maybe 4 holes hitting 2 balls a hole straight or right rough with slight push fade.  Then tried the lofted up to close the face.  Hitting left side of the fairway with it but still wanting to fade a tough so put the weight on the heel.  Hitting it ok but still cant hit a slight draw with it which is my normal shape.   Think it might be the shaft.  Using that crappy ventus 6x version.  I think I need a Fubuki in it which is my favourite shaft.

 

I havent hit one pull draw with this club in 2 rounds and I've hit close to 30 drives with it.  I thought I'd be snap hooking this thing before I tried it.  Most of my shots are mediocre, either on the fairway or 5 yds in the right rough.

 

My spin axis was negative on trackman with it.  Trackman frequently doesn't give me the same results as on the course.  On the course its a right miss every time.  I think if I have a shaft with a bit more kick in it it might do the trick in allowing me to easier get that hint of draw.  Have a fubukiand will stick an adaptor on it sometime over the next week or so. 

 

Oh one more question.  I have been gripping down 1 3/4'' on the shaft as I plan on playing it at 44.5'' and haven't cut it down yet as I don;t plan on keeping this shaft.  I think the swingweight will be too light though at that length.  Would a heavier back weight be ok or will I change the characteristics of the club?  What length are the tour boys using? 45.75'' seems crazy long to me

A couple things on a heavier weight...

 

It will increase fade bias a touch. But, based on "by the book" a heavier back weight will cause the face to rotate closed easier. This is due to an increase in shaft deflection. I didn't find the backweight to do that significantly and the amount of deflection likely depends on the shaft and the player's release. 

 

I just went to a 17g back weight and tested it a bunch. Played with it Saturday and it performed really well. I actually added 2g more lead tape on the heel side of the inertia thingy to up the swingweight. So i technically have about 19g back there. 

[OhYeahPlayer]

On 10/4/2020 at 1:53 PM, dlow206 said:

I need to stop messing around with the settings on my SIM Max.

 

I found that the right setting for me is the Upright setting. Stock weight plus 4 grams of hot melt.

 

Still fades a bit too much at times, but mostly got rid of the ball that starts right and goes further right. Now the start line is more to the left or straight. When I hit the ball right I have a nice baby fade. 

Pretty much same thing with me, but swap the hot melt for lead tape. I have three strips on the heel at ~5 grams to add a bit of weight and hopefully straighten out the fade a bit. I'm hitting a comfortable cut, can still lose it right once in a while but nowhere near as bad as the old right miss was prior to lead tape/upright. 

[Trap Junior]

9 hours ago, arenapoutine said:

Pretty much same thing with me, but swap the hot melt for lead tape. I have three strips on the heel at ~5 grams to add a bit of weight and hopefully straighten out the fade a bit. I'm hitting a comfortable cut, can still lose it right once in a while but nowhere near as bad as the old right miss was prior to lead tape/upright. 

That is the beauty but also the drawback of adjustable drivers.  You can get into a constant cycle of fiddling with them.  Peoples swings are never the same two days in a row so the temptation is to always try to correct ball flight (human error) with the driver.

 

I personally would like a neutral driver, neither draw or fade biased that sits square behind the ball.

All the drivers on the market these days tend to sit very open or have CG favouring draw or fades.  The SIM is defintely anti left.  I like my misses to fall left or right of where I am aiming a fairly equal amount. Neutral spin bias.  I don't want my miss to always be in the right rough although there is a positive in that too.  If I miss it left or right I want to be the cause of it, not the club.

[Trap Junior]

I was about to order a heavier back weight on ebay for the SIM so decided to check what weight in the back actually weighs so I can calculate the swingweight.  I plan on playing this 44.5''.

 

However the wrench doesn't fit the back weight so I can't unscrew it!  Has anyone else had this issue?

[getitdaily]

1 hour ago, Trap Junior said:

I was about to order a heavier back weight on ebay for the SIM so decided to check what weight in the back actually weighs so I can calculate the swingweight.  I plan on playing this 44.5''.

 

However the wrench doesn't fit the back weight so I can't unscrew it!  Has anyone else had this issue?

You need a T20T bit for the backweight. Remember to weigh the screw and the weight together. If you have a regular SIM then the back weight should be 12g.

[DNice26]

I ended up moving on from the Sim Max because I was very inconsistent with it (w/Ventus Blue Velo, 6X).  Most misses went out right (and I typically draw the ball). 

 

The only way I was able to keep it on the planet was to play it in the upright loft position, one or two tics towards "higher."  

 

To be honest, for a guy that can miss left, it was almost fun to feel like going left was completely off the table.