Manuel De La Torre Swing Focus

[Millbrook]

If you google it there is a link to them on Amazon but there is a warning that they are not compatible with our DVD machines. You would have to check this out before ordering.

[Jersey golfer]

I have the book, the dvds and even a vhs copy of Manuel's 1986 PGA summit presentation. In my opinion the youtube videos of the 1987 clinic and Brett Freeman's explanations on freebirdgolf.com are head ans shoulders better in detailing Mr. de la Torre's concept than the dvds.

[tm3]

Thanks for posting this information.

[Chazb]

Every time I try to sign up for the firebird site I never get a code sent to me.

[Chazb]

I know it’s The freebird site...the auto correct took over my I pad.

[ball game]

The code is freebird

[Chazb]

Thank you

[bdcava]

I’m committed to this method but I’m drawing everything! Trying to neutralize my grip and get the club more in my left hand palm, but even my good shots have a little too much draw.

Any suggestions?

[jmbean50]

I’m having the same trouble. Ball often starts straight but then over draws. Thinking it may be related to my left hand grip being a bit strong.

[dlygrisse]

Path too in to out. Check alignment and swing the entire club to the target.

[chipa]

@bdcava When I take the club back with both hands as MLDT recommends I inevitably take it a little outside and can't get the left arm over the right(because the right hand is pulling back) hence my right hand has too much freedom as it doesn't feel connected to the left hand and I hook. This has been my nemesis for a long time. To remedy this I practice turning my left forearm over quickly(like Hogan, Daly, Finau, etc) in order to make sure the toe of the clubhead is up by 3 oclock(as MLDT instructed). I also keep my right shoulder forward and keep it there and never let it go back to help the left side reach over the right. When I do it correctly it feels like I am swinging under my left arm and I can hit as hard as I want w/o snap hooking it. The best way I have found to to this is to do a lot of 1/2 swings ensuring the back of the left hand is pointing in front of me and the toe of the club is pointing up. For the longer swing I still use the short swing mechanics but my swing is longer. BTW, many pros have different takeaway mechanics for the length of the swing, the longer the swing the more the forearm rotation is delayed, but I have found this requires too much practice for me to be consistent.

[juststeve]

You're right to be thinking about your grip but I would advise you to go back to first principles. Hands on the grip with palms facing one another with the Vs and the club pointing at the center of your chest. Pretty hard to hook it from there.

Steve

[bdcava]

It's funny you say that. My recent best days on the course have been when I made sure I felt the clubhead opening on the backswing. I have trouble getting to the "toe up" position, but I'm hesitant to use this because I'm affraid I'm going to suck the club too inside. I'm obsessed with the video of Manuel hitting balls. I know that the camera angle may not be perfect, but to my eye it looks like he goes immediately inside, then up. I on the other hand have trouble getting the club over my shoulder - I'm usually under.

[chipa]

Nobody wants to get to the inside because we feel we can get our arms trapped. Nonetheless, keep in mind that those who say not to turn the left hand over to early (one piece takeaway) actually do turn their hands over for short 1/4 to 1/2 swings with no exceptions. Look at any videos of pros like Sam Snead or Bobby Jones, etc. Essentially they have two different methods of left forearm rotation depending on the swing. IMO this is difficult to groove.

Taking this fact into account that there are many really powerful swingers of the ball who roll there left hand over very early(Mike Austin, Tony Finau, John Daly) and yet somehow don't get their arms trapped (on the contrary they swing their right hand thru impact like few others) then there must be something else happening that few talk about. IMO it is the right shoulder/hand positions staying in front of the ball which not only does not allow the right arm to get to far behind one it also keeps the swing over the inside of the right leg instead which pushes it back instead of to the side.

In order to do this move keep the right shoulder forward and the elbow initially still during the takeaway but let the left hand push and swivel the right hand back. DJ Johnson does this with his irons and is quite noticeable how his right elbow stays forward even though his right hand has folded back.

[juststeve]

You are correct in you observation. Manny moved the club on a tilted circle which means that off the ball the club head is traveling in, back, qnd up at the same time. The immediate inward motion is something the body reacts to my turning.

It might interest you to know that Jackie Burke Jr. at Champions in Houston advocates in then up on the back swing.

Steve

[chipa]

In spite of the fact that MLDT didn't offer a lot of technical instruction regarding the backswing the more I understand about the swing I see that the "connection" between the hands and arms and the club is more important. I expect this is why he didn't have a standard takeaway sequence other than telling people to have the toe up by 3 o'clock. Also, the fact that apparently he didn't change his students swing if they were working seems to verify that he understood the "connection" is more important than the backswing plane. This is probably why he physically showed his students how to start the swing so they could "feel" the connection created between the arms and the hands, something that is impossible to do if one is tense.

[bdcava]

Thanks Steve and Chipa. I also noticed that Manny's finish seems to have the club more vertical, as in pointing down the back as opposed to horizontal, as in bisecting the neck. Not sure if that's related to ball flight.

You guys are a great help,

 

Bob

[bdcava]

Yes Steve. Sometimes I wonder if the sucking inside is the result of the body not freely reacting. If everything turns together, the club should essentially stay in front. At least I think so.

[juststeve]

Manny wanted the bodies response to be immediate. It will be so long as you do nothing to prevent it such as too much tension or trying to move the body deliberately. Each of those will make it impossible for the body to respond.

Steve

[tm3]

Steve your advice about the feet together drill to treat my push/slice has been very helpful. I'd like to bounce another one off of you.

While my driver and fairway metal distance is great, I've lost distance on my irons. I also seem to be hitting them higher. One theory is that I'm casting thus adding loft which can make shots high and short. However, if that was the case I don't see why my driver and fairway metals are not affected.

Any ideas?

Thanks!

[juststeve]

I'll make a suggestion I've heard Manny make.

Make it your intention to hit the ball forward, not up or down and the brush the turf on the target side of the ball. Make your forward swing one continuous motion from beginning to end. The hands are for holding the club and nothing more on the forward swing.See of one of those thoughts helps.

Steve

[JPet17]

I just started following this thread on Wednesday and watched the swing video from Milwaukee CC on YouTube then. I went to the range after work that day and started following the principles. I've always had problems between the ears and trying to do things my coaches have told me instead of letting the body just do what it wants. I always hit the ball great in lessons and then it just falls apart on the course. Just thinking hands back over shoulder and arms/club forward toward target has really freed up my brain and I finally feel like I'm swinging instead of trying to hit all these body positions. First round tomorrow, but the range and hitting into the net in my garage has me confident I can just setup and go and not worry about what my body is doing. Like I used to do in baseball just reacting to the ball coming at me.

[bdcava]

I wouldn’t be surprised if I’m re-gripping without knowing it. Old habits die hard.

[juststeve]

Part of what he taught is that any time the club is horizontal it should also be parallel to the target line. What you describe as vertical is a club that is parallel to the target line for the last time in a swing. He would express it as all of the horizontal cords of a circle are parallel to each other.

Steve

[juststeve]

How many quality shots can you hit before reforming your grip. If the answer is less than two the grip is moving in your hands, perhaps as a result of re gripping.

Years ago I had the problem myself without knowing it. When Manny idetified the problem I didn't believe it. The cure was to start with very short swing focusing on my hands remaining in place during the swing. Gradually work your way up to full swing and your problem will be fixed. Test yourself from time to time by hitting another shot without reforming your grip.

Steve

 

[chipa]

I read Jack Nicklaus said that in his opinion that was the worst swing fault of most amateurs he had seen, not swing plane, tempo, balance etc. that we hear most teaching pros talk about.

When I got back into this game a year ago I decided I was going to make all the changes necessary to have as a repeating swing as possible. One of the hardest things I struggle with in this regard has been the grip. I had a 10 finger grip and like many amateurs I regripped both hands during the backswing, and still do at times. However, I am determined to make the necessary changes and since I have been reading MLDT's principles it has helped a great deal, because I have much less tension nor am I too worried how I am routing the club going back. Also, I have found that Hogans' recommendation to keep the base of the right thumb pad on the left thumb during the complete swing helps me get the club in a good position to make a powerful swing. The other part of the right hand grip that has been difficult to master is that it must be in the fingers or the hand will get pushed behind me instead of in front of me - Hogan's book demonstrates the correct right hand finger grip (seen below) but sometimes I grip in too much in the palm, so to remedy that I like to feel that the right hand fingers are pushing the club forward away from it at address, like a forward press position

[chipa]

I have been watching more MLDT videos. I feel it is relevant to point out that MLDT's theory about the setup and turn being centered over the legs is a "rotary move" which as I have found out is very hard on the lower back for those who have limited flexibility like myself. In fact doing the rotary type of swing like this for any length of time will cause parts of my legs to go asleep and pain of course. I understand MLDT's point of view, after all the rotary type of swings were all the rage in 1987 with Greg Norman and Freddy Couples as prime examples.

Also, MLDT is not completely correct in stating that the shoulders turn more easily with a "centered" stance because all one has to do is allow the heel of the left foot to come off the ground so the left hip can turn in, like a lot of classic swings (Bobby Jones). Keeping the left foot down was considered the way to swing at the time of the video, but it shouldn't be recommended to anyone with poor lower back flexibility or stability. One can still follow MLDT's methodology of putting the left hand over the right shoulder by allowing more weight to go on the right side and the left foot to come off the ground.

[The Pearl]

Are your sure your interpretation is correct? I don't think this is an accurate translation of MDLT's approach.

[chipa]

Here is the video starting from 39:00 to 40:07. This advice from MLDT came to light when my brother pointed this out to me after I had recommend he look at MLDT's stuff, he bought his book too. My brother had been looking for another instructor after he spent hundreds of dollars for pga teaching lessons only to be told to "shallow the club" and other bodily contortions on the way down - so naturally I mentioned MLDT. However, I pointed out that while MLDT's theory is good neither him nor me should try to swing around the center like MLDT shows in the video because we don't have the back for it. The rotation theory was very popular when this video came out. One can still do a natural swing with a good weigh shift.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXJQGLHRXIE&feature=youtu.be&t=2340

[The Pearl]

He has never once taught "rotating until your back hurts." You can stay centered and balanced and make a turn/coil with zero back strain. One of the central themes of MDLT is a tension-free swing with loose muscles. The entire concept of "letting the body respond" is based on being tension free...that is the only way the body responds naturally. I am 57, can stay centered and balanced and relaxed, make a full turn and can hit balls for hours.

The whole feet together drill is based on this concept.

You are terribly confused here.