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Manuel De La Torre Swing Focus


NickSal88
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In the video 'Understanding the golf swing" de la Torre makes it very clear the club should be straight up and down at impact with the ball in the center of the stance. This makes for the dreaded 'Y' impact position where the shaft is not in a line with the lead arm ('y' impact position). The 'Y' position is considered to be a poor amateur position caused by a flippy release by most folks while the 'y' position is demonstrated by every top swing that I have ever seen. You will see the 'y' position in any video of a pro hitting the ball other then some sort of specialty shot. I have spent a lot of time and effort in the past trying to get my full swing to by a 'y' at impact with limited results. LOL I don't care anymore and I am happy with whatever release I get as long as the shot is okay. So I agree with your assessment!

As for X factor trying to restrict the hip turn on the backswing is definitely not in line with de la Torre's teaching. One thing I did learn form my last set of lessons was that having a quiet lower body makes for a better swing for me. I tend to get a little crazy with leg movement. I think that a quiet lower body is in line with the thought of letting the body follow or accommodate the swinging motion.

 

 

Driver Maltby KE4 w Aeortech Steelfiber SS65 shaft 46.5”
3 wood Rogue subzero 15 degree with Paderson KG70 F30
Hybrids: 3, 4 and 5 Rogue with Steelfiber HLS980 shaft
Irons: 6 through wedge PXG 0311 with Steelfiber i110cw shaft
Wedge: 50 deg 10 deg bounce MacDaddy 4 S Grind
Wedge: 56 deg 10 deg bounce Jaws S Grind
Wedge: 62 deg 10 deg bounce MacDaddy 4 C Grind (bent to 62 degrees from 60 degrees)
Wedges with steelfiber i110 shafts.
Putter: Strokelab EXO 7; 39.25 inches; 77 degree lie angle; Takimac arthritic grip

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Lot of misinformation in the post above.

The ball is never in the center of the stance. At address the club head is placed in the center of the stance, the fall forward of the club head. depending on the club being used the ball is a little forward of center for an iron to quite a ways forward with a large headed driver. The club should not be straight up and down at impact. It should be pointing toward your center at address which with the club head in the center of the stance means the club is straight up and down, sort of, at address. At impact the handle of the club is forward of where it was at address because of the speed in the arms. Thus there is forward lean at impact.Nels is correct that X-Factor plays no role in the swing Manny taught.Steve

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In "Demonstration of Central Concepts" he states very clearly that every part of the club is to arrive at the ball at the same time:

delatorrearriveatonce.jpg

delatorreimpactclubpos.jpgNo shaft lean. He does say that the club should be in the middle of the body so ya got me there!

Driver Maltby KE4 w Aeortech Steelfiber SS65 shaft 46.5”
3 wood Rogue subzero 15 degree with Paderson KG70 F30
Hybrids: 3, 4 and 5 Rogue with Steelfiber HLS980 shaft
Irons: 6 through wedge PXG 0311 with Steelfiber i110cw shaft
Wedge: 50 deg 10 deg bounce MacDaddy 4 S Grind
Wedge: 56 deg 10 deg bounce Jaws S Grind
Wedge: 62 deg 10 deg bounce MacDaddy 4 C Grind (bent to 62 degrees from 60 degrees)
Wedges with steelfiber i110 shafts.
Putter: Strokelab EXO 7; 39.25 inches; 77 degree lie angle; Takimac arthritic grip

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Driver Maltby KE4 w Aeortech Steelfiber SS65 shaft 46.5”
3 wood Rogue subzero 15 degree with Paderson KG70 F30
Hybrids: 3, 4 and 5 Rogue with Steelfiber HLS980 shaft
Irons: 6 through wedge PXG 0311 with Steelfiber i110cw shaft
Wedge: 50 deg 10 deg bounce MacDaddy 4 S Grind
Wedge: 56 deg 10 deg bounce Jaws S Grind
Wedge: 62 deg 10 deg bounce MacDaddy 4 C Grind (bent to 62 degrees from 60 degrees)
Wedges with steelfiber i110 shafts.
Putter: Strokelab EXO 7; 39.25 inches; 77 degree lie angle; Takimac arthritic grip

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Nels55:

 

It's easy to be confused when you haven't worked directly with Manny. Take a look at Brett Freeman's site, freebirdgolf.com. Freeman was a disciple of Manny and worked with him for years. You will find on his site drills to improve impact. He does two, the first one is what Manny was demonstrating in the photo you posted. Take the club back and the return it slowly to the address position. A great drill with no speed. The second drill Freeman demonstrates simulates what happens when you try to return the club to the address position with speed. When you add speed the clubhead arrive at the ball with the hands forward of where they were at address.

Manny told me that my intent should be to return the club to the address position at impact. When I asked him whether the club actually returned to the address position he said no, because of the speed in your arms the handle will be forward of the address position, but that's not something you need to think about. Presto shaft lean without trying to make it lean.

What would be the consequence of a vertical shaft at impact? only the bottom 2 or 3 grooves would be available to contact the ball and you would never apply the sweet spot to the ball.

In any event, look at the Freebird Site. Next best thing to Manny himself.

Steve

 

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As always Steve thanks for the feedback! I'll keep using the Orange Whip. I always focus on back with the hands, forward with the arms.

I'm working my way through the Freebird videos. So far my favorite is when he does all the "correct" setup moves (straight left arm, reverse K, etc.) and then says, "Now, how do you make an athletic move from this position?"

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I have not done much range work lately but I am still seeing good things from the swing method. I know I am not perfect in applying it but I played 9 holes and used driver on 5 tee shots, the other 4 are either par 3s or holes where I need to tee off with a shorter club. I kept the handle back at setup, closer to having it in the middle but not all the way there. Club head also closer to middle of my stance with the ball near my front foot. So no more addressing the ball with the club head right behind the ball and my hands way forward. I hit 5 solid drives that were nice draws down my target line. I hit 4/5 fairways, my miss is when I hit through the fairway, lol. I will keep working on getting the driver setup more correct. My irons and woods, I've found that I am also getting better at following Manny's principles. I'll notice that I have the club head centered but my hands are forward a touch, so I bring them back to center.

 

Overall, it's been very positive and I seem to be getting some gains in distance as well. I'll keep working on improving and am looking forward to the long term results.

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Very good. I only reported what de la Torre said on the video that I have and I was trying to make a larger point. I did not mean to get caught up in a technical discussion but that is something that seems to happen more often then I would like LOL. I know that a lot of the players that de la Torre coached had pro impact positions so he obviously did not care all that much about the vertical shaft business as long as the result was a true swinging motion. I was really surprised the first time that I saw that part of the video as it seems rather odd to me. Shaft lean is generally a good thing but a vertical shaft works fine for hitting solid shots from a reasonable lie. I think that as you mentioned a bit of shaft lean is better and in my case I do have a bit as my hands are in front of the ball at impact even if I don't quite make the 'y' pro position on most shots. At any rate I don't worry about it anymore, if I swing smooth and relaxed the results are enjoyable!

To bad we can't play a round of golf together and hash it all out, seems like we are in agreement on the general concept of the true swinging motion.

Driver Maltby KE4 w Aeortech Steelfiber SS65 shaft 46.5”
3 wood Rogue subzero 15 degree with Paderson KG70 F30
Hybrids: 3, 4 and 5 Rogue with Steelfiber HLS980 shaft
Irons: 6 through wedge PXG 0311 with Steelfiber i110cw shaft
Wedge: 50 deg 10 deg bounce MacDaddy 4 S Grind
Wedge: 56 deg 10 deg bounce Jaws S Grind
Wedge: 62 deg 10 deg bounce MacDaddy 4 C Grind (bent to 62 degrees from 60 degrees)
Wedges with steelfiber i110 shafts.
Putter: Strokelab EXO 7; 39.25 inches; 77 degree lie angle; Takimac arthritic grip

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@juststeve, California on the Central Coast south of Santa Cruz, are you anywhere near?

Driver Maltby KE4 w Aeortech Steelfiber SS65 shaft 46.5”
3 wood Rogue subzero 15 degree with Paderson KG70 F30
Hybrids: 3, 4 and 5 Rogue with Steelfiber HLS980 shaft
Irons: 6 through wedge PXG 0311 with Steelfiber i110cw shaft
Wedge: 50 deg 10 deg bounce MacDaddy 4 S Grind
Wedge: 56 deg 10 deg bounce Jaws S Grind
Wedge: 62 deg 10 deg bounce MacDaddy 4 C Grind (bent to 62 degrees from 60 degrees)
Wedges with steelfiber i110 shafts.
Putter: Strokelab EXO 7; 39.25 inches; 77 degree lie angle; Takimac arthritic grip

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Steve, Cowboy fan?

Driver Maltby KE4 w Aeortech Steelfiber SS65 shaft 46.5”
3 wood Rogue subzero 15 degree with Paderson KG70 F30
Hybrids: 3, 4 and 5 Rogue with Steelfiber HLS980 shaft
Irons: 6 through wedge PXG 0311 with Steelfiber i110cw shaft
Wedge: 50 deg 10 deg bounce MacDaddy 4 S Grind
Wedge: 56 deg 10 deg bounce Jaws S Grind
Wedge: 62 deg 10 deg bounce MacDaddy 4 C Grind (bent to 62 degrees from 60 degrees)
Wedges with steelfiber i110 shafts.
Putter: Strokelab EXO 7; 39.25 inches; 77 degree lie angle; Takimac arthritic grip

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@juststeve, that brings a smile to my face! I am really starting to like you!
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Driver Maltby KE4 w Aeortech Steelfiber SS65 shaft 46.5”
3 wood Rogue subzero 15 degree with Paderson KG70 F30
Hybrids: 3, 4 and 5 Rogue with Steelfiber HLS980 shaft
Irons: 6 through wedge PXG 0311 with Steelfiber i110cw shaft
Wedge: 50 deg 10 deg bounce MacDaddy 4 S Grind
Wedge: 56 deg 10 deg bounce Jaws S Grind
Wedge: 62 deg 10 deg bounce MacDaddy 4 C Grind (bent to 62 degrees from 60 degrees)
Wedges with steelfiber i110 shafts.
Putter: Strokelab EXO 7; 39.25 inches; 77 degree lie angle; Takimac arthritic grip

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Here is an interesting look at the effect that you are describing:

https://youtu.be/Eto0OQVCT2wThe hands slow down a lot in a proper release. I have seen data elsewhere that shows that ams tend to release early and have higher hand speed with lower clubhead speed at impact then pros do. The flippy release. In a true swing the result will be the pro movement demonstrated on the video. I get closer when I can relax my hands and just let the swing happen. LOL I have noticed that I get a really good looking release on video when there is no ball involved.

Driver Maltby KE4 w Aeortech Steelfiber SS65 shaft 46.5”
3 wood Rogue subzero 15 degree with Paderson KG70 F30
Hybrids: 3, 4 and 5 Rogue with Steelfiber HLS980 shaft
Irons: 6 through wedge PXG 0311 with Steelfiber i110cw shaft
Wedge: 50 deg 10 deg bounce MacDaddy 4 S Grind
Wedge: 56 deg 10 deg bounce Jaws S Grind
Wedge: 62 deg 10 deg bounce MacDaddy 4 C Grind (bent to 62 degrees from 60 degrees)
Wedges with steelfiber i110 shafts.
Putter: Strokelab EXO 7; 39.25 inches; 77 degree lie angle; Takimac arthritic grip

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Yes, that is a speed producer according to bio-mechanical experts. Something that could or possible should happen automatically with the de la Torre method. It is important to finish straight up and relaxed with the weight on the lead foot in neutral joint alignment to help prevent injury. Something like this:

delatorrefinish.jpg

Driver Maltby KE4 w Aeortech Steelfiber SS65 shaft 46.5”
3 wood Rogue subzero 15 degree with Paderson KG70 F30
Hybrids: 3, 4 and 5 Rogue with Steelfiber HLS980 shaft
Irons: 6 through wedge PXG 0311 with Steelfiber i110cw shaft
Wedge: 50 deg 10 deg bounce MacDaddy 4 S Grind
Wedge: 56 deg 10 deg bounce Jaws S Grind
Wedge: 62 deg 10 deg bounce MacDaddy 4 C Grind (bent to 62 degrees from 60 degrees)
Wedges with steelfiber i110 shafts.
Putter: Strokelab EXO 7; 39.25 inches; 77 degree lie angle; Takimac arthritic grip

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I am 67, a high handicap golfer and my handicap rating is steadily improving thanks to golf instruction books and golf lessons over the years. About ten years ago an older gentleman at a driving range asked if I had ever read Ernest Jones book. I bought the Jones book, thought it had great value and for a short while practiced using the Jones swing technique. Over the years I have read Jim Hardy, Al Barkow, James Sieckmann, Dave Pelz, a book on Moe Norman, Jim Hartnett, Jim McClain, Stan Utley, J.F. Tamayo's two fine books, Michael McTeigue, Mike Malaska, Brandel Chamblee, Dave Stockton and Hank Haney's books. Whew!

Two years ago I went to a local instructor with the request to help me move from an upright swing to a single plane swing. It took a year and my Ping G400 set that was originally Green dot was later sent back to Ping to be bent to Orange Dot. After two years of being a single plane golfer and approximately thirty one hour lessons, I was seeing glimpses of consistency. Some days were better than others and the bad days were challenging because I knew so much more about the various swings I had been taught and almost mastered. As a person who has spent his life designing and selling products, my monkey brain often wrecks my golf game as I move into cause and effect thinking to "solve" whatever my swing problem is that day. J.F. Tamayo's two books almost got me squared away with their simple formula approach. Almost, but not quite as I could not consistently master Tamayo's right arm moving down in the initial downswing for the distance swing. The same was true of Tamayo's weight moving forward during the short shot backswing.

This winter I downloaded Manuel de la Torre's book and carefully read it three times over the past three months. I had utilized Ernest Jone's methods ten years ago and recalled having experienced brief streaks of awesome golf, so I was interested in reading MDLT's book. I have found MDLT's approach fits me well. Having every swing being set up the same way (center of the body), hands focused backswing, arms focused downswing and no thought given to anything else during the swing process has greatly helped with easing my monkey brain out of the picture. If that was all that was produced in MDLT's book, I would give the book a five star rating. Manuel de la Torre's book did not stop with the swing as it gives great knowledge how to deal with all the shots a non-professional golfer may encounter. Here is an example: yesterday I utilized MDLT's method for fairway sand traps twice during a round and had great success. I've found his technique of centering the golf club to the body with the ball two inches behind that centering point is automatic success from a fairway trap. His instruction to think only of hitting the ball into the bunker wall is automatic success from a deep green side bunker. These are just two of the monkey brain managing techniques I've learned from MDLT's book.

 

I've enjoyed the journey of reading the above cited golf instruction books and each one has contributed to my understanding. In some cases, it has helped me understand my playing partners swing motions. For me, my golf book reading days will be tapering as I have found the book and method that fits me.

Here is a question for my fellow golfers who have embraced MDLT's swing methodology: Have you seen any change in distance after adopting MDLT/Jones swing methods? My 7 iron had diminished to 130 -135 yards. Now I am seeing 145 -150 yards. I am seeing occasional drives going 15 yards further than previously experienced. One dog leg hole I've had to stop using my driver and am now using a 3 wood to avoid hitting into the woods. I am seeing similar situations on par 3s and am now moving back one and sometimes two clubs. What has been your experience with the MDLT/Jones method?

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Interesting how the site automatically takes the primate name m--key and makes it into ****.

I appreciate this long running, now seven pages long thread explaining Manuel de la Torre's methods. The links to his 1987 group instructional sessions were especially valuable. Truly good stuff and much of it is excellent psychological stuff about golf, too.

 

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I think that must be what advanced players and some instructors are saying when they speak of using the ground for leverage. That is a feeling that I have never had. Another one I hear tossed around is dropping the hands so that the downswing plane is flatter than the backswing plane (like "skipping a stone on a pond"), and I'm unaware of that one also.

But as long as I'm striking it decently I don't care!

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Nice post, sounds a lot like my experience except for the lessons. I got so tired of hearing polar opposite things from different instructors and of them charging such exorbitant fees that I gave up on that approach.

Anyway, as far as distance I've lost distance on my irons. My 7 iron was always my 150 club but now it is more like 135-140. I would write this off to aging however I'm consistently hitting my driver significantly farther. Last year I hit personal best long drives on a few holes and have already done it a couple of times this year, so I don't think I'm losing iron distance due to age.

I'm puzzled by the iron distance and I'd like to get it back but I'm not concerned as I really don't care what the number on my iron is -- I care about putting it on the green, or getting close. My suspicion is that I'm somehow de-lofting the irons with the way I swing.

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Regarding your iron distance issue are you seeing a lower ball flight? If so an equipment change could be the ticket to get back some distance. Of course on the other hand if things are working okay...

Driver Maltby KE4 w Aeortech Steelfiber SS65 shaft 46.5”
3 wood Rogue subzero 15 degree with Paderson KG70 F30
Hybrids: 3, 4 and 5 Rogue with Steelfiber HLS980 shaft
Irons: 6 through wedge PXG 0311 with Steelfiber i110cw shaft
Wedge: 50 deg 10 deg bounce MacDaddy 4 S Grind
Wedge: 56 deg 10 deg bounce Jaws S Grind
Wedge: 62 deg 10 deg bounce MacDaddy 4 C Grind (bent to 62 degrees from 60 degrees)
Wedges with steelfiber i110 shafts.
Putter: Strokelab EXO 7; 39.25 inches; 77 degree lie angle; Takimac arthritic grip

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This is such a great picture. Thanks to Nells for posting it. Appreciate it for what it is, the resuly of swining the club in the direction of the target with a fully responsive body plus excellent balance. Manny had reservations bout snap shot photos of great swing because he thought it would lead people to think about positions instead of movement. Appreciate it for what it is and you can learn something.

 

Steve

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