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What Would A Tour Pro Shoot At The Pines Course, The International Resort In Bolton, Massachusetts?


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I am looking at the scorecard of this place and wonder how a Tour player would fare here from the Tiger tees. This course was built way before Tiger was born, and the name Tiger tees is a coincidence. Even par would have been a course record back when everyone played with persimmon woods and balata balls. Given today's golf ball and driver, I think the course is now manageable for a pro. Any guess on what a Tour player would shoot?

E849LOVZ7G7N.jpgFor those of you who have played this course and may already know, what's the course record from the Tiger tees?

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I haven't seen the course before, but going just off this scorecard, I'll guess no less than 3-under. I see maybe six holes that would push a pro, so I'll say maybe a pro gets unlucky on half of those and makes three bogeys. For the remaining 12 holes, I assume the pro will birdie at least half of them. That leaves us with 3-under.

I repeat that this analysis is based solely on the scorecard.

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No, it did not close. It is a private club going strong. I played the Pines course in 2018 from the Championship tees. The Tiger tees are another 1200 yds over that, but the course is not super difficult except for some narrow fairways. A tour pro that can drive around 300 should be capable of shooting mid 60's no problem as long as they don't try to play "Bomb & Gouge". Ko'olau from the tips would be a better test, IMHO.

BT

 

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I've played Ko'olau, that was easily the most difficult golf course I've ever put a peg into. Where we have rough here in Texas, they have 12" ferns. Period. You could watch where your tee shot ended up when it bounced into the "rough" and STILL not find your ball. I found more of other people's balls than my own. I played from the Championship tees and got humbled quickly.

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It was reported a week ago that they had closed and fired their staff. They might be walking that back, though. From a local article:

Posted Mar 25, 2020

Following a week of silence after laying off staff and announcing the club was closing, owners of the International Golf Club & Resort in Bolton emailed members late Wednesday afternoon to insist that the business hadn’t closed permanently.

However, Stephanie Andrade, lodge and events manager, stated that she stood by her statement last week that owners Kevin Weadock and Ann Weadock-Specht said otherwise at a meeting at the club on March 18.

“We were told it was permanently closed,” Andrade told the T&G on March 19, “that it would not re-open.”

Owners say International Golf Club in Bolton hasn't closed permanently

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Consdiering everything is closed in MA right now, I would take that with a grain of salt. I'm fortunate to work and a deemed "essential" business.

BT

 

Mizuno ST180 10.5 - Diamana Kai'Li 70 S @ 44.5"
Mizuno JPX 850 3w 14.5 - Diamana Kai'Li 80 S @ 43"
Mizuno JPX 850 7w 19.5 - Diamana Kai'Li 80 S @ 41.5"
Mizuno MP5 4-PW - Aldila RIP Tour 115 R
Mizuno MP-T5 52, 56 & 60 - TT Wedge
Grips - Grip Master Master Perforated Midsize

 

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I played there some 30 years ago. What I really recall is the size of the course. Not just the length. On one of the par 5’s on the front I was just short of the green in 3. The pin was back and I had nearly 100 yards for my 4th. Hard to take a full swing when the green is that close.

WITB
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I just got back last week from playing Fighting Joe on the RTJ Trail. From the back tees it is just over 8000 yards.

On a couple of holes it's a full 260+ yards just to reach the fairway from the back tees.

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They shut down 3/18, back when courses could still be open. At that point the only restrictions on courses were for F&B areas (and gyms too) that held 25+. Gov Baker didn't order courses closed until 3/23. On 3/18 a lot of courses--if they hadn't already opened--were scrambling to open early under the theory that if they were up and running they were less likely to get shut down by the government as time went on.

Who knows what the other side of this looks like, but if they were having money problems by 3/18 it doesn't look good for them going forward.

Anyway, slightly more on topic, I used to play there a decent amount and I don't really think the extra yardage would hurt a pro much. Just isn't narrow enough to penalize misses off the tee enough. It'd be harder for the pros if you chopped off 500 yards but brought the treelines in 10 or 15.

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Looks like a fair amount of distance is comprised with three of the par 3's and the par 5's. Pro probably has a 68 in him there.

I am basing this solely off of length and hole handicaps never having played there but I wanted to give this a shot.

Holes 1 and 2 are not out of the ordinary in length. Let's say birdie-par those two, -1.

Hole 3 - 674 yards. If you had a 300 yard drive and a 3 wood to a 3i layup you'd still have a wedge into the green. They par it for this exercise. -1

Hole 4 - 180 yards. Nothing unusual in length and an easier hole per the rating. Bird. -2

Hole 5 - 715. 300 yard drive, 3 wood (280 yards) lay up and you are left with 135. Give him a par. -2

Hole 6 - 530. 300 yard drive and he has a hybrid or 2i/3i in his hands. Pretty tough. Bogey. -1.

Hole 7 - 277 par 3 is probably a hybrid or 2i off the tee for a pro but an easier hole on the course. Par. -1 still

Hole 8 - 412. Shortest par four. Give him a bird. -2.

Hole 9 - 535. Fair drive and you have hybrid or long iron. Par or Bogey.

Turns at -1 or -2

10 - 440 but pretty easy according to handicap. Bird. Let's say -2.

11 - 590 but second hardest hole on the course. Bogey. -1

12 - 567 but in the easier half of the holes. Par. -1

13 - 250 and easiest hole onthe course. Birdie. -2

14 - 437 and middle of the road but a short iron or gw. Birdie. -3

15 - 487 and middle of the road. Par. -3

16 - 270 but third easiest hole - Bird. -4

17 - 440 and hardest par four. Not long though. Par. -4

18 - 656 but easiest par five on the course. 300 yard drive leaves you 256. Might get on and three jack for par. Might lay to a sweet yardage and knock down a pin. Could get an eagle but no worse than par. Lets say bird. -5.

There's your 68.

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I've never been anywhere near this course, so I'm coming from a position of extreme ignorance, but those course ratings and slope figures seem really wonky to me.

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Any course is about the greens. Greens rolling true and smooth allow for low scores. There was an article a while back where someone took a tour pro to Washington DC muni. The pro shot 68. Basically birdied the par 5's. The pro said the greens weren't in good enough condition to go super low. I am assuming that is the case for most non tour courses. Casually saying these guys will birdie a 180 yard par 3 is also silly. Tour pros are great golfers but they do not stick it to within 3 feet every time they have an iron in their hand. Some of you watch too much television coverage golf instead of actually playing.

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The hole by hole ratings on the scorecard are based on match play need of the bogey golfer versus a scratch. So while you are correct they typically are higher handicap holes( not always-my previous home course in Minnesota a par 3 was the #1 handicap hole!) you gave an incorrect reason. And one I have never heard before. Kudos for that. Based on your reason virtually every course 1-4 would be par 5’s....5-14 par 4’s and 15-18 par 3’s.

WITB
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feel stupid asking this as i could figure it out myself.

 

what is the significance of massive difference in course rating but proportionately smaller difference in slope? between longest two tee options?

 

pro's scores would differ alot between the two tees but amateur's wouldn't as much because we would already have huge problems with 2nd longest tees?

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I thought the Course Rating is the average score a 0 handicapper would shoot. I don't know how they determined that without a staff of zero-handicappers to survey the course. The zero handicapper has the 3 wood off the deck shot, in addition to the skill to hit longer clubs where the margin of error is smaller. However, I presume that because the course is so long they will be using these long clubs far more often and errors will naturally come. The Slope Rating, as I understand it, is based on the objective features of the golf course (e.g., forced carries, water hazards, OB, and other trouble in addition to overall length. I reckon the small difference in slope is simply because other than extra length, there does not seem to be a whole lot more trouble off the Tiger Tees.

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It is a pretty challenging course. There are quite a few holes where the landing area is tight and/or well guarded. There are also some birdies holes out there too if you can play your irons. If the greens are firm and fast (like they usually are/were), I think upper 60's would be a good score for a typical long hitting tour pro.

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