Kevin Na vs WRX

[chisag]

"A normal person mishitting a blade is typically them fatting the heck out of it, shanking it, topping it, or having zero sense of face control and hitting a wild pull or push."

... From my teaching days most of my students certainly did hit all of those shots, but more often than not they had inconsistent face contact and face angle. Where perimeter weighting makes a huge difference is hitting the ball on the toe with a slightly open face, the majority of students miss hits. A MB blade will turn more when hit on the toe and that 2* open face turns into 5* open face and really bad results follows. But that same swing with a GI and that 2* open face turns into, at worst a 3* open face so distance and direction is not affected as much. All of us do the same thing, just to a more or a less degree. If I hit my Z Forged on the toe with a slightly open face I am penalized more than my P790's and if I am hitting a 5 iron to an island green from 185, it can mean the difference between fringe and water. If you are hitting it fat and thin, then you are also hitting it high/low and toe/heel and of course this is where a perimeter weighted club head can really help. When many of us talk about the forgiveness of a perimeter weighted iron, I think we are talking about minimizing the damage of our misses. Certainly not a night and day difference, but a big enough difference to effect any given shots ability to end up on the fringe or in the bunker, having a 15 foot putt instead of a 20 foot putt, etc.

... Yes, yes, yes, play what you like and what makes you happy. I think that is a given and don't know why it is repeated over and over again in every thread. I don't think there is anyone on this forum, even the most ardent GI zealot, that thinks you should not play MB's if they add to your enjoyment of playing this great game. I love playing my Z Forged MB's once a month or so. They are fun, they look and feel great but most importantly they remind me why I play P760/790's to maintain a + index. Ymmv of course...

 

 

[NRJyzr]

 

In the nature of a FWIW comment...

I play blades, almost primarily. I also don't try to work the ball, unless you count trying to change trajectory here and there. I play them entirely because I score better with them, and because my dispersion is significantly better with them. An indoor session demonstrated that pretty starkly, when I was making Attempt Number 17 to replace the blades with something else. The fitter finally told me "I think you should just play those."

That's all there is to it for me and my game. I've tried a number of non-blade sets that I really wanted to work; Ping ISI, TM TP MC, Peerless Tours, Goldwin AVDP Tours, Precept Tour Premiums.... none of them got it done for me, no matter how badly I wanted them to. Eye2+ are the only CB set I've had that give me close to the same scores, but they have an issue or two relative to my game, such that I don't use them much these days.

Ironically, last season I got my first ace, and of course, it was with a CB, LOL. TM TP MC, specifically.

[Myherobobhope]

Nothing wrong with playing what works... You've at least tried other things and been open to improving your game... if blades are the best fit, play blades.

Or play what makes you happy...

[chisag]

 

... I would have never sold you those amazing TP MC's if I knew you weren't going to give them a fair chance!

[jons1]

 

This sounds like a driver problem. If you have nothing more than wedge into the green, this conversation ends. Buy a new driver so you can fix your blades problem.

 

 

[dpb5031]

I suppose I'm one of those "dudes" LOL, so have a chuckle on me ? ! I play i200s because I appreciate their forgiveness on the course, but also find it very beneficial to add in some reps with my Mizuno MP 68 6 iron during practice.

[boggyman]

Everyone tells me that about my beloved FG 17s,I hit then better than any other iron I bag. That’s why I put them back in the bag. No matter what I play, the 17s always show back up.

[boggyman]

In a recent email of the top 10 iron players, blades overshadowed the CBs. Unless you’re playing for a living, name is stitched on your bag, play what fits YOUR eye and YOUR swing.

[Krt22]

Hogwash. You should play what internet people tell you to play!

[boggyman]

?????

[NRJyzr]

 

But I did give them a fair chance, actually two separate occasions.

I actually like the 3 iron rather well, and the 4 is pretty decent, also. For a while, I was hitting that 3i so well, I thought about asking you if you'd bent it 2* or 3* strong.

I may still put it in my bag in place of my MP37 3i....

[LeoLeo99]

I played them for years. Hundreds of rounds. Could play in the dark and find my ball just based on feel. I play G400 irons now and have no idea where they are going. Hit atrocious feeling shots and when I look up the ball is going dead straight and hitting the target. But I've tried other blades with varying levels of success. The FG17 are special. I hugely regret selling them even though they were worn out needed another set of Victory cord grips.

[jons1]

Here's a true story why this debate p!sses people off...

I paid for an iron fitting for Titleist irons at Mike Bender Golf Academy in FL maybe 10 years ago. I told the guy I was interested in the MBs before we started because I had played the Titleist MBs for years before my recent set of CBs. The guy gave me a hard time over playing blades for the entire 60 minute fitting session. He rattled off how almost no pros play the MBs because they are so hard to hit. He made me try every other club Titleist makes to talk me out of it. He told me basically no one should play the MBs but folks like Adam Scott and how my swing wasn't good enough. I hit the blades and loved them, but he kept showing me how on trackman the distances were shorter than the AP2s (duh because of lofts and spin). After an hour of this I just paid for the fitting and left without buying any clubs.

But before I left I asked the fitter what clubs he played... you guessed it, he played the MBs. I wanted to punch the guy in the face for the worst fitting experience ever. I should have reminded him that he's no Adam Scott, but I bit my tongue. And I overheard his boss yelling at the guy in his office afterwards saying, it's his money, why do you care what he plays? It didn't matter how long I had played bladed clubs before, same brand mind you, or what my handicap was (which at the time was a 3), he wasn't hearing it and shoved his agenda down my throat the entire session.

Play what makes you happy. I don't give a flip if you play hickory shafts... knock yourself out... just let me play through.

[mcc0819]

Kevin Na is a relatively straight ball hitter from what I've seen from him. So it makes sense that a cavity back would work best for him. But someone like Tiger has a blade and he loves to shape his shots in every which way possible. So I think it depends on the player. If your are a low handicap/scratch golfer, your ball striking would be good enough to play blades especially if you shape your shots. Blades to me equal easier shot shaping but also easier to mishit. So the question is, are you willing to take the hit on the occasional bad strike? I'm a 3 handicap and still playing CB's because i'll take any advantage I can get. At the end of that day, that's what I believe works for me. If you you're a 15+ handicap and want to play blades then by all means go get yourself fitted for some blades.

[Pepperturbo]

I don't think the problem has much to do with CB or Blades as much as some people, regardless of their club choice, personalize differences and get into piddle matches. I was surprised they locked the one Na thread after my last post, as I didn't see anything derogatory. I didn't know there is a large number of other threads on which is better or the same topic as Na was discussing.

[dpb5031]

I think for Tour players it comes down to perceived cost v. benefits. Some want to see their ball take off and fly within a certain trajectory window and achieve the desired results best with an MB blade. To this end, they are willing to forego forgiveness.

Others find the forgiveness more beneficial for their game and are still likely able to achieve their desired ball flight with a more forgiving CB.

Still, I play a fair amount of tournament golf in an area with tons of really good players at scratch or better, and I cannot recall the last time I saw a true muscleback blade in a competitor's bag.

[Nels55]

Agreed. For me I am struggling to hit the ball clean and somewhere near my target and pretty much the only time I try to work the ball is when I am in the trees. If I have a draw or fade working on any particular day I just go with it. So in my case a lot of forgiveness in my clubs with some loss of workablity makes the most sense. Kind of the opposite of your game, I think that you are more artist and I am more technician or something like that I suppose...

[boggyman]

For whatever strange reasons, the 17s are my holy grail. The I gave $50 fir my set of 17s in really good shape at time of purchase was well worth it.

[dmeeksDC]

Furyk played the Callaway Razr X Forged for a long time. Very friendly cavity back with a high MPF. He won many times with them, shot a 58. And he was concentrating.

[mahonie]

I had a similar experience a while ago. First question fitter asks me is what my handicap was (I was 12 at the time). After working out that I needed a stiff shaft, he promptly put several CB heads in the correct shaft but I wasn’t feeling comfortable. I asked him if I could try the Nike VR MBs and he reluctantly set them up saying I was wasting time as someone of my handicap wouldn’t be able to hit them. After posting what he said were some of the most consistent numbers he’d seen in a while, for both dispersion and distance, he still said I should be looking at getting something like Mizuno JPX 800s.

I left without buying but picked up a set of Nike VR Split Cavities a couple of weeks later with his advice ringing in my ears. Nice clubs and I played them for 3 years until I managed to land a set of MP4s on close out. With the MP4s in my hands, my handicap came down by 2 shots within 3 months mostly down to distance control but also as I wasn’t hitting them as high as the Split Cavs. Controlling the trajectory was so much more natural for me, particularly as I have a naturally high ball flight. My 18 year-old son has just taken golf up and has gravitated to my MP4s even though there are a couple of more ‘forgiving’ clubs in my inventory. He hits them fine and his swing is developing well.

[mcc0819]

Totally agree with you. Pro's are so good that they need to hit a specific window for that specific shot. MB's make it easier to control those trajectories but sacrificing forgiveness on mishits.

The best players i've played against or seen in local tournaments rarely had a true muscleback blade. The best player in the area plays Titleist CBs with hybrids in the long irons.

[chisag]

 

... Oh Pa-Lease 2 chances? Ya gotta play 'em at least 10 times, preferably 20 before coming to any conclusions!!! (That said, I bought some Ping i10's, played them one round and took them back and exchanged them for some forged CB's LOL)

[1Mordrid1]

This is exactly what the "forgiveness" that a lot of people feel gives them some advantage as opposed to playing blades. That and the ability to maintain ball speed further away from center contact.

Club design does have an effect. And sometimes it has a larger affect on one person's misses, than on someone who has a completely different miss. If you generally miss low on the face with an iron, then blades and clubs with higher CG are probably not for you, and may punish your misses more than something with a low CG and more perimeter weighting.

The reason the blade vs cavity back discussions on this forum become so polarizing is because of the misinformation and justification that some use when playing blades. If they just said "I play blades because I like them more", most people would say "cool". But when you claim that cavity backs have random fliers on pure strikes, you will get pushback, because that myth has been proven false so many times it has gotten old. Just like when people say "cavity backs make people sloppy strikers". No, they don't. A lack of focus makes you a sloppy striker, not the club in your hand. Because if you have the skill to pure a blade, you should have no trouble doing the same with a cavity back. If using a bigger more forgiving club makes you a sloppy striker, then why doesn't every player who use blades still play a 280cc driver?

The bottom line is play what you want and enjoy playing. If you are honest with yourself and you know you are playing the right clubs for you, then there should be no need to justify what you play.

[achappy]

The logic in this is funny. You aren't going to tell someone not to play blades but you are going to tell them what reasoning they should use that fits your criteria of what clubs they should play?? Your assumption for the reason is also wrong.

[boggyman]

Why is it that I read of so many posts of fittings gone bad? I’m with you 100% though. Know a guy who went through a fitting at Club Champion and he hates the outcome.

[NRJyzr]

 

Two times meaning two different multiple round efforts.

I think I've got at least a couple dozen rounds in them.

[1Mordrid1]

Sometimes fitters get in their own way. Trying to chase numbers instead of results. I know some people out there that just read that are thinking "aren't those the same thing?". No they aren't. To me chasing numbers leaves you with just that. A few good swings that when comparing numbers makes you say WOW. This is how some "fitters" think you should sell clubs. To sell a customer on their "ceiling" rather than on their reality.

To me chasing results is about finding the setup that may not give you the biggest WOW factor, but will give you the best results across the board. When you get out on the golf course, which is more important? The launch and spin numbers, or the result of the shot? I think being realistic with customers can be hard, but easier to explain. And they will have more realistic expectations when they get to the course. Even in the simulator, if you focus more on the result(ie: ending on the green or in the fairway) as opposed to focusing on the 5 "best" shots, the customer will have a lot more realistic expectations when they get to the course, and therefore will be happier with the fitting. The problem is that sometimes this does mean you do not get the sale. Also if you just focus on numbers, then that is what the customer will do. And then in the course of chasing numbers the customer starts to slowly change their swing to chase "optimal" numbers. Then when they get on the course with their "normal" swing, guess what happens.

Launch monitors can be great, and they can give a good fitter a baseline to work with. And professional and even some scratch golfers that understand their swing, and how changes effect other things, can successfully chase numbers to optimize their game. But I think amateurs with little or no real understanding of swing mechanics should not be chasing numbers, and instead should be chasing optimal results with their current swing.

[Pepperturbo]

Here is CA I agree, not many better amateurs play blades. I see mostly player CBs and hybrids. I have player 620CBs and 620MBs. It's evident MBs offer greater trajectory and distance control as opposed to CBs bring forgiveness, reason I have a blended set in the bag. As for Na, he's new to Callaway so IMO he's helping to sell clubs. I am sure the new cut numbers are going to affect a lot of players, and not in a good way.

[MtlJeff]

I'm not telling them which reasoning they can and can't use, just which reasoning I dont believe.

[mahonie]

PGA Tour is pretty much set up for straight and high. As a pro you would want what goes straightest and highest I would have thought. Stenson said that he plays his Legacy Blacks for that reason as he doesn’t need to shape the ball. He’s plays each club a certain distance and works it out from there if the yardage isn’t spot on to his window. I’m sure if the pros had to shape the ball and had to control trajectory, many more would play MBs.