Pivot and arms

[stingerfade]

When I pivot without arms or club, hand across chest it’s so simple easy and balanced, head stays centered and fluid. When I swing with feet together only using my arms, effortless smooth and balanced as well.

when I swing normally it’s a disaster. Its just a lunge chop with no rhythm. Is this the inherent difficulty in a golf swing, combining these 2 motions? And why is it so hard to do them in a coherent fluid motion but when separated it’s super simple?

or is this an arms swing vs body swing and just find the one that works best for you?

I know the Iteach drill with keeping your right arm straight to sync up but can’t translate it to full swing. Sometimes if I focus on the pivot only and it feels as if my arms are just sticking out of my chest and not doing much it’s better but doesn’t feel as there’s much speed there.

[glk]

Cause it is a difficult movement. Best way I know to work this is to separate them - if you can do the centered body pivot with arms folded or club across chest that is step one. Next is to do it with club folded and then when at the top stop and get the club extended out into backswing position - helps to use mirror or video to check how this looks. Then do slow stop drills - take the club back to parallel and stop, then use pivot to take it to the top. If you have issues with arm structure use a dodgeball between upper arms or a small range bucket.

And btw, I always had an upper body dominate swing and as I trained a move body driven swing my arms felt "slow". And FWP here confirmed this is typical - if you use your upper body and arms to generate speed then when you go to a more body supported swing, it's likely that your arms will feel as though they've slowed down - happened for me and I picked up 30 yards off the tee - so feel isn't real.

[glk]

 

[Hilts1969]

 

The keep your right arm straight drill is only any good if You a decent pivot anyhow. Keeping your right arm straight(feel) won’t do any good if your set up is poor, you turn flat etc etc etc.....

[stingerfade]

Thanks glk. That’s the problem I find Doing them separately it’s pretty good but trying to put them together is a different story! Use the smart ball between arms as well sometimes which I can do no problem as well

[glk]

I’ve used a few aids to do the blending. Gravity fit. Small ball just above my elbows ( like that small range bucket). The stop drill that I also posted.

Just need reps. And if all else fails don’t hesitate to take a lesson - I last saw Monte in December and still focus on the things from that lesson. A trained eye can do wonders.

[Zitlow]

When you throw a baseball do you have a problem keeping your right arm and pivot in sync? Slinging a golf club is a similar concept except you're directing the entire club on a revolving inclined plane.

 

 

[stingerfade]

Yea I get that but unfortunately I don’t throw a baseball with both hands so doesn’t translate to golf for me

[Zitlow]

This is in the context of Mike Austin's swing which is pretty much diametrically opposed to what you see here and everywhere else for the most part. The left arm establishes the radius of the swing but other than that the left hand and arm go along for the ride.

 

 

[GreatStrike]

stingerfade - You are most likely trying to swing the golf club using one or both arms as the primary power source. That's what is known as an 'arm swing'. You've probably heard the term 'the tail is wagging the dog instead of the dog wags the tail'. The outside (arm) is swinging the inside (body) - when it should be the inside (body rotation) moves the outside (arm and club). Your understanding of how a golf swing should be powered is wrong. That's all it is - your intention is mistakenly on your arm powering the swing, whereas your intention should be on your body's rotation moving the arm. The lead arm doesn't lead the body - the lead arm (and club) lags the body!

An arm swing is directly opposed to (or counter to) a body rotation swing where the passive lead arm (and golf club) is actually moved (powered or swung) by body rotation. With an arm swing the golfer will never achieve natural lag in their swing because the arm is not lagging - it is actually leading or 'in charge' and powering their swing. If you think about your swing you probably make a decent backswing and might even start the downswing in decent fashion, but somewhere in the downswing you try to speed up your lead arm (or both arms). This happens because your intention of how to swing the golf club is astray. It should be done with body rotation but instead you tighten up your arm muscles along with tightening up the connecting muscles in your lead shoulder area in an effort to move your arms with greater speed. Whatever body rotation you had in the early downswing is upset because the arms have now taken over control. You can only have one power source in control, otherwise one source will oppose or conflict with the other source. Also, as soon as you put the lead arm in control of making it move fast you start extending/releasing, you lose any chance of sustaining lag in the swing, you move the club outside the proper swing path, and all the other bad things you are probably aware of that happens in most amateur's golf swings.

You mentioned that your balance is bad. The reason your balance is bad is because when you start the downswing with your torso rotating but then give control over to the arms this is like throwing an opposing force backward into the body, which causes you to be off balance. When you see the tour pros finish in perfect balance (e.g. Rory McIlroy) they have learned years ago, probably as a young child, that powering the swing with their arms is not how the golf club is to be swung. You want one power source - the inside (body rotation) is the power source that moves the outside (arms and club). Michael Hebron wrote a book that thoroughly explains how and why most golfers mistakenly use their arms instead of their body rotation to swing a golf club. The book is titled "See and Feel the Inside Move the Outside".

If you have a tendency to come-over-the-top with an outside-in swing path, your swing requires that you must release/extend early to get the clubhead back to the ball and make contact, you tend to hit out on the toe of the club and high on the clubface, you tend to hit fat shots or scrape through impact, you often flip through impact, you hit 'at' the ball, you usually hit high and fading or slicing shots, you don't compress the ball very well, you don't hit the ball as far as you feel you should, you don't have a strong boring type trajectory - then you probably are under the false belief that your lead arm's role in the golf swing is to be in charge of creating speed to swing the golf club.

The next time you go to the range to practice do two things to get an idea of the correct concept that body rotation is in charge of moving the arm and club. Find a place where you can hit balls above your feet on a side hill lie, with the ball about 6" to 10" above your feet. Let only body rotation move the arms and club through impact. Don't attempt to use your arms to help provide any additional speed to the swing - if you do you'll cast and release the club into the ground outside the swing path line. Watch how the ball flies further, with the ball flight being a draw, and the ball trajectory will be lower. You'll be able to strike the ball off hardpan. If you really want to see if you are swinging correctly using body rotation to move the arm and club - hit balls while on your knees. Another good practice is to hit balls low like you are trying to hit the ball under a low hanging branch. Accomplish hitting the ball low by using only body rotation to move the arms and club. You'll see how the lead arm (and club) nicely lags behind the rotating torso. It shouldn't take too long before you'll ingrain the proper movement because your intent will change. Our golf swings reflect what we believe, and that's where our incorrect concepts get us into trouble. Allow the body to be in charge of moving the arm and club.

Hope this helps...

[nitram]

^^^Smokin' 1st post^^^

[Nickc]

Read Michael Mcteigue "keys to the effortless golf swing" or watch the video lessons - free on YouTube - & follow his instructions as though you are starting as a complete newcomer to golf.

[Tanner25]

Cool first post, Nail_It, Welcome! Besides, a body rotation to generate power. Do you believe in a hip bump or swing from the ground up on the down swing? Cheers, Tanner

[GreatStrike]

Tanner25 - I think a hip bump is not something you intentionally need to do - it will likely be a natural body reaction that will precede your intent to reverse the backward rotation and move into the forward rotation of your torso. But first you need to make sure your intention is to use the body to move the arm and club, and not just use the arm to power the swing. If you were intending to make a basketball free throw your body will make various moves preceding the actual movement necessary to throw the basketball. These moves are natural to sustain balance and efficiency in what you intend to do. The same can be said for any sport from throwing a baseball or football, to maneuvering your body on a skateboard or snowboard. The body is wonderfully created with all the necessary moves and adjustments built-in and ready to activate. But, if you mistakenly 'think' something should be done this way when it really should be done a different way, then things don't perform as expected and oftentimes cause things to go completely haywire.

As for swinging from the ground-up, it happens naturally when the inside (body) moves the outside (arm). Having an arm swing makes you more likely not to have a natural hip bump, or feel as though you are not using the ground - and the reason why is because what you have put in-charge of powering the swing is hanging on the outside of your body, so your intent to use your arm to power the swing doesn't really need to use your body or the ground.

 

[stingerfade]

Great advice thanks! Funny thing is I have the Hebron book and actually had a lesson with him a few years back and also have the mcteague effortless swing book. Been to a Monte clinic, lessons online and in person with Iteach etc etc. I agree with and understand ALL of it but just can’t seem to put it into practice especially on the course. Granted I’ve really had to overwrite a serous “hit” with the upper body and know it takes time but it’s just at the point where is it what it is or what. I’m 48 and been playing for 25 years. It’s better for sure but not totally gone and not sure it will. Hebron actually told me, this is 7 years ago probably, that I really am trying to hit the ball more than he’s seen and he’s seen a lot! Slow motion swings, training aids all that stuff I can do it on the range and in front of a mirror but really struggle when I try and implement it. I’m a decent player with a single digit for quite awhile (Good short game and putter) but every round there’s some major clunkers and it always full swings. It’s so frustrating but....I won’t give up.

rambling but in nyc and can’t go to the range and it’s killing me ha

[Tanner25]

Got, it Nail_It! So, like a baseball pitcher, uses the lower body/ground to deliver the arm and wrist. Thx, Tanner

[stingerfade]

That is what it is but for me as I said the throwing baseball, rock underhanded feel is tough because you don’t have both hands on a rock or a baseball when throwing it That’s why the disconnect at least for me

[GreatStrike]

One thing to keep in mind, when the arms are put in-charge of powering the golf swing your body must make a change in what the upper torso (namely the shoulders) do. The change that the body makes when the arms are put in-charge of the swing is to stall the shoulders. You probably realize that you stall your shoulders, but haven't really added 2+2 together to understand the reason why you stall the shoulders. The reason why is because you have placed the arms in charge of the swing. If the body was in-charge of moving the arms the shoulders would continue to rotate, but since your arms have been put in-charge the shoulders must be servant to the arms. So, one of the things you want to key on, and feel the change of, is the idea that you maintain the rotational speed of your shoulders through impact. The shoulder rotation speed does not need to be lightning fast, in fact as you acquire the correct feel of the shoulders not stalling all you want to do is just make sure they do not slow down. Just having the shoulder rotation speed coast through impact without slowing is all that is needed to start feeling the difference.

The other thing you want to digest and get a feeling for is, as Michael Hebron says in his book - is to leave the arm and club behind. Arm swingers have a mistaken idea that they should have the arm and club race into impact. Get to impact as fast and as soon as possible. But that is actually opposite of what you want to happen. It's counter-intuitive. The reality is - the intention of putting the arm in-charge and having the arm create the swing speed and getting the clubhead back to the ball quickly is just the opposite of what you want to have happen. You want to leave the arm and club behind in the downswing. You want the arm and club to lag behind, be the caboose and arrive last to the depot.

To help you get the feeling of allowing the body rotation to move the arm and club (as opposed to putting the arm in-charge of creating swing speed) these 'leave the club behind' thoughts should help. You'll probably remember them...

The all-important feel which I experience as the swing changes direction is that I have the distinct feeling that I have left the club behind as I start forward.

As the inside turns, the outside is finally brought to its full speed and power after being left behind.

When looking at the sound golf swing, it looks like the arm and club have been left behind. It looks this way because that is what is happening. In the sound swing, the arms do not move on their own. They are pulled by the force that has been built up by the inside rotating them down to impact.

Use this as a swing key. Try to leave the arms behind when you start your downswing. They will come down at the correct time, not before, when you try your best to keep them out of the swing.

If the arms were to push, this would be like the outside skater on the skate line letting go of the line and trying to skate alone. If the rotational force in the golf swing were interrupted, the energy of this natural power would be lost, and motion could only continue artificially, with the hands (outside) trying to hit.

Watching the arms in the swing of a good player, I feel, is not as helpful to your vitalization as looking at the movements of the club. Over the years, I have found that when golfers try to leave the club behind, several important and required results in the swing are taken care of automatically.

One important result of leaving the club behind is that the plane of the swing is constant. The club is now approaching the ball from inside the target line and will produce a squaring clubface through impact. This happens naturally without any use of the hands because the golfer has let the shoulder rotation lead the downswing and has left the hands and club behind.

Also, the inside path of the clubhead assures that the body’s leverage and force will be behind the hit, giving your swing the ability to generate maximum force.

 

[stingerfade]

Makes a lot of sense but if the shoulder rotation leads the downswing, I thought it was the lower body?

I’m not trying to sound snarky it’s just there’s so much conflicting info. Bender wants the feel to be arms and hands fire first from the top, others want to leave arms behind its just so confusing. How do you leave arms behind without getting stuck? Do you have a shorter arm swing so they don’t get behind the pivot basically?

[GreatStrike]

That's because you are under the mistaken belief that your arms should be used to create swing speed and swing the golf club into the golf ball. If your arms were wooden and couldn't be used in an attempt to create swing speed, and the only way you could move your wooden arms is to rotate your body and have your body sling your wooden arms - that's what you want to mimic. The arms are powerless, passive limbs - unpowered appendages that are totally controlled and at the mercy of the body.

[glk]

I like this guys pivot.

[GreatStrike]

You are confusing two things. The downswing starts from the ground up as you pressure into the ground to start the downswing rotation from the ground up. Chances are good that as the lower body starts rotating the arms and club are still going back. As the downswing rotation progresses the lower body leads the shoulders and the shoulders lead the arm and club.

[GreatStrike]

You are confusing two things. The downswing starts from the ground up as you pressure into the ground to start the downswing rotation from the ground up. Chances are good that as the lower body starts rotating the arms and club are still going back. As the downswing rotation progresses the lower body leads the shoulders, and the shoulders lead the arm and club.

< I see that when you try to edit a post the post is deleted. >

[stingerfade]

That’s crazy. Good for him. Makes me feel like a tool worrying about my problems...

[stingerfade]

Thanks for the clear explanation. Practice swings in living room feel good letting arms swing. Do you feel as if the whole arm structure south of shoulders is one unit, elbows close together?

[GreatStrike]

If your arms were wooden - passive, unpowered appendages - that could only be moved with body rotation, that is what you want to think about as you gain the feel for the body rotation moving (slinging) the arm and club.

[Tanner25]

Is the body slinging the arms on the backswing?

[GreatStrike]

That's a good question. There are lots of different thoughts about how best to have the arms move during the backswing. Some deliberately use the arms to propel them, but most use the torso's rotation to move the arms. The lead arm and chest form a structure of sorts that tend to easily remain in a good position to the chest even as the trail arm folds. The key to starting the backswing is to get it going smoothly away from the ball instead of jerking it back. Using the analogy that the shaft at the hosel of the club is a fragile frozen rope, and you don't want to snap the frozen rope during the early backswing is a good thought. One very popular method to start the backswing is to move the right scapula in and down about 2 inches. It keeps the right scapula in a 'shoulder back' position, which is what you want in the backswing and the majority of the downswing. Most amateurs crunch their right shoulder (scapula) forward (instead of keeping it pinned back) in the early downswing because they power their golf swing with their arms.

[GreatStrike]

As you practice you'll learn how much effort is needed to [just] retain the structure. One of last things in my opinion you want to do is think about body positions. Forget about elbows and wrists and stuff like that. No intentional twisting or arching or trying to add speed. If I (heaven forbid) cut off your arms and put a dead man's arms that you could not control in your arm's place - and attached your own hands so you could only use your hands and fingers to grip the club - that would be perfect.

[stingerfade]

Hardest thing for me especially when trying to implement changes is how to get the cub moving back.

your other comment no twisting, it’s pretty apparent that all good players supinate their lead wrist before or during the downswing. So is this supposed to happen naturally because of the pivot