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Pivot and arms


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Yes, I'd say that in most sound golf swings the golfer makes no effort to manipulate the hands or wrists. There's no need to. The arm-club connection acts like a flail, which is held together with a piece of leather or chain. Have you ever seen a golf trick-shot artist hit balls with a flexible swivel at the hosel? Or seen someone hit balls with the Medicus golf club? The golf club is designed to be used as a tool where physics aligns the clubface square at impact and the golfer's body rotation brings the club into impact with shaft lean. The momentum and weight of the club at transition causes some changes in the wrist position as well as naturally shallowing the club.

 

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

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I think this guy is likely a pretty good golfer! I'll use him as an example.

See if you can sense that Tiger's intention is to use his body rotation to move his arm and club. Look at it that way. Tiger has left the club behind (2nd image) ... look how far he has rotated his body before his club finally makes impact. The last thing he wants to do is arrive at impact before he absolutely has to. Just the opposite of arm swingers! Most people view (and think) that the golf swing is made by using their lead arm to create speed and to power the golf club. It's not. The body slings the arms and club.

When you watch golf on television start looking at the swings in a different way and you'll soon realize that it's only possible to create natural lag if the body rotation slings the arm and club. Shaft lean, compression, force, balance - all these desirable things happen when the swing originates from inside (body) and moves the outside (arms and club). You can watch amateurs on the driving range and tell with one or two swings if they have an arm swing, or they know what they're doing.

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

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Rory is using his body to move (sling) his arms and the club. He's doing an excellent job of 'leaving the club behind' and letting his body rotation deliver the goods. If Rory was an arm swinger his hips would not be anywhere near as open and he would have already released (cast) the club in order to make sure the clubhead contacted the ball.

To the untrained eye (someone that doesn't know what to look for) you might think Rory's swing intent is to create swing speed with his arms. That couldn't be further from reality. Once you know what Rory is doing you see the golf swing in a different way.

 

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

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Rory most definitely works on speed from the arms. Want to be slower then just rely on the pivot. Amg has other video where they show how they speed up ams swings by getting them to apply more speed early via the arms.

Rory doesn't go from 2 mph at the top to 22 mph at p5 by just relying on his pivot.

 

Sealed with a curse as sharp as a knife.  Doomed is your soul and damned is your life.
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The first rule of the Dunning-Kruger club is that you don’t know you are a member.   The second rule is that we’re all members from time to time.

"for I think a law that is not just, is not actually a law" ("nam mihi lex esse non videtur, quae justa non fuerit")  Saint Augustine of Hippo

#Kwonified

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https://www.instagram.com/p/B7lpEMJlalu/and what they did to get the am to speed up.

 

Sealed with a curse as sharp as a knife.  Doomed is your soul and damned is your life.
Enjoy every sandwich

The first rule of the Dunning-Kruger club is that you don’t know you are a member.   The second rule is that we’re all members from time to time.

"for I think a law that is not just, is not actually a law" ("nam mihi lex esse non videtur, quae justa non fuerit")  Saint Augustine of Hippo

#Kwonified

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The purpose of the downswing is to conserve all the energy that was created and stored in the backswing, so it's available at impact. Think about that. That's the point of the downswing. Its whole purpose is to conserve energy. That's it; there's no other point to the downswing.

Say you get a good setup, then go to the top of your swing. From there, you're just going to start to unwind back into impact, doing nothing at all with your arms. If you're at the top and you just start to unwind your body without doing anything with your arms, then on the way down you'll get into the perfect position. Your wrist cock will still be exactly the same as it was at the top deep into the downswing. How could you maintain that wrist angle if you were using your arms to create speed for the golf club? You couldn't.

Passive arms simply means that you're not expending any energy with the arms in the downswing. It doesn't mean that your arms are limp noodles. It just means you're not trying to do anything with them. You're working to conserve energy, not accelerate. That's really the key.

Remember that you're just trying to conserve, conserve, conserve, all the way through, and watch that release happen on its own. It will - you can't stop it from happening.

You can accelerate your body. You can accelerate your arms along with your body. As you get better, you can even learn to accelerate your arms by themselves, but until you're proficient at conserving energy in the downswing and only starting to release into impact, there's no sense in ever doing anything with your arms because their whole purpose is to conserve energy. If you learn to do nothing but conserve energy with them all the way down - not by holding the angle, but by not doing anything with them at all - then you're always going to get a solid strike.

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

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The purpose of downswing is to generate and transfer kinetic energy to the club head. The backswing serves to create the potential for this energy. Nothing to conserve at the top of the swing And why would one conserve in the first place, one wants maximum they can generate.

 

 

Sealed with a curse as sharp as a knife.  Doomed is your soul and damned is your life.
Enjoy every sandwich

The first rule of the Dunning-Kruger club is that you don’t know you are a member.   The second rule is that we’re all members from time to time.

"for I think a law that is not just, is not actually a law" ("nam mihi lex esse non videtur, quae justa non fuerit")  Saint Augustine of Hippo

#Kwonified

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Trying to generate power primarily using your arms can cause you to fight your body, resulting in an incorrect swing path. To generate power during a golf swing, you should use the big parts of your body. The larger the muscle, the more energy it can generate, which means your legs, hips and torso contribute more power than the smaller arms, hands and wrists. You want to use your lower body and your core to generate power.

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

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Never said body doesn't contribute - but the arms/shoulder aren't passive bystanders. The lumbar/thoracic core contributes about 72% of the work of in the downswing and the arms/shoulders contribute around 24% with the knees/ankles making up the rest. To dismiss 24% of the work done during the swing is asking to be slower than one's potential And the arms need to move down quickly to synch with the pivot. You can make a great backswing but have the wrong concept around the transition/downswing and lose speed - this what AMG has measured. Do you have any measurements? What is your source of information? Nesbitt/Serrano wrote a research paper of how the body generates work/power and AMG has measure via GEARS.

 

Sealed with a curse as sharp as a knife.  Doomed is your soul and damned is your life.
Enjoy every sandwich

The first rule of the Dunning-Kruger club is that you don’t know you are a member.   The second rule is that we’re all members from time to time.

"for I think a law that is not just, is not actually a law" ("nam mihi lex esse non videtur, quae justa non fuerit")  Saint Augustine of Hippo

#Kwonified

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The arms are attached to the body at the shoulders - minimal effort is needed to retain the arm-chest structure which keeps the structure in-sync with the body rotation. People get into trouble when they try to generate power and speed using their arms. The arms can (and should) remain passive. Leaving the club behind is the opposite of what arm swingers do. The arm swinger 'thinks' they should generate power and speed with their arms when they should turn Off their arms and use their body to deliver the arms and club through impact. Arm swingers trying to get out of their bad habit of using their arms should not be concerned about getting stuck because they've been doing the opposite of getting suck by using their arms.

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

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The downswing of elite players starts with a lateral shift of the lower body before the backswing is finished, followed by rotational movement. The two distinct backswing-downswing, as if they are discreet and static positions, may be the biggest contributor to the hundreds of millions of slices hit per year. ;)

bought out by private equity.

capitalization, grammar and reasoning slashed as a cost reduction.

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https://www.instagram.com/p/B_NWPLdlyt7/do you want faster body rotation or faster club head speed. Choose wisely.

 

Sealed with a curse as sharp as a knife.  Doomed is your soul and damned is your life.
Enjoy every sandwich

The first rule of the Dunning-Kruger club is that you don’t know you are a member.   The second rule is that we’re all members from time to time.

"for I think a law that is not just, is not actually a law" ("nam mihi lex esse non videtur, quae justa non fuerit")  Saint Augustine of Hippo

#Kwonified

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If you have an arm swing where you try to generate power and speed using your arms, you should consider the following.

Your body is a rotating hub which is the power source. This hub moves your passive lead arm at the body's same rotational speed. At the end of your arm is where the passive golf club is attached. Much like Iron Byron or the PING Man there are three components; the hub, the arm and the golf club - only one is powered, the hub. The problem with an arm swing is that somewhere during the downswing (at some time point from the very beginning of the downswing to near impact) the arm swinger thinks he should (or feels the need to) move his power source to his lead arm (or both arms). When the arm swinger moves the power source from his rotating hub to his arm the power source now has been moved to the center of the three part arrangement, between the hub (the original power source) and the load (golf club). When you move the power source to the center of a three part arrangement things don't work out well! Doing it totally upsets (jackknife, kickback) the three part arrangement.

You should be able to visualize why moving the power source from the hub to the arm causes the body/shoulders (hub rotation) to stall - the body must stall. When the swing is powered by the hub (body) it creates an orbit of sorts, but when the power source is moved to the arm it destroys the orbit and the swing becomes discombobulated. You can't even put the arm even a little bit in-charge of providing power and speed. It's much like swinging a weight on the end of a string - as the weight swings around in perfect orbit you cannot grab the string midway down in an effort to speed up the swing. Doing so would destroy the swing and the orbit would jackknife and kickback on itself.

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

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not true. That amg clip posted was one example - the passive arm player had 21% more rotation speed and 22% less clubhead speed. And here is Monte with more Where is your data that supports your statement

Faster Hips do NOT Create Club Head Speed · Rebellion Golf

 

Sealed with a curse as sharp as a knife.  Doomed is your soul and damned is your life.
Enjoy every sandwich

The first rule of the Dunning-Kruger club is that you don’t know you are a member.   The second rule is that we’re all members from time to time.

"for I think a law that is not just, is not actually a law" ("nam mihi lex esse non videtur, quae justa non fuerit")  Saint Augustine of Hippo

#Kwonified

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Passive arms is one of the reason people get stuck. Plenty of other reasons but telling people to have passive arms is poor advice. And people who over use their upper body and arms are usually out of synch, have a poor pivot, etc and end up getting stuck.

 

Sealed with a curse as sharp as a knife.  Doomed is your soul and damned is your life.
Enjoy every sandwich

The first rule of the Dunning-Kruger club is that you don’t know you are a member.   The second rule is that we’re all members from time to time.

"for I think a law that is not just, is not actually a law" ("nam mihi lex esse non videtur, quae justa non fuerit")  Saint Augustine of Hippo

#Kwonified

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You have your opinion, and that's totally fine with me. By all means, please continue to have an arm swing. I'm not here to argue...

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

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shouldnt make assumptions about how I swing.

Repeating the same thing over and over isn’t a convincing argument. Especially with no data to back it up And I’ve supplied plenty to refute it.

Giving bad advice is not okay

there is a spectrum of swings where people recruit different power sources - some more lower body some more upper body and everything in between . See them as tour winner all the time. What you don’t see is tour winner with passive arms - or elite swings in general.

now you may feel the arms are passive. No Issues with that. But it just isn’t so and until you show some data then it is you with the unsupported opinion which you are free to have but just don’t go sending folks down the passive arm path rabbit hole. Monte has seen it so much he coined the phrase 68 ballerina to describe it’s effect - leave those arms up and fire that lower body. O la.

 

Sealed with a curse as sharp as a knife.  Doomed is your soul and damned is your life.
Enjoy every sandwich

The first rule of the Dunning-Kruger club is that you don’t know you are a member.   The second rule is that we’re all members from time to time.

"for I think a law that is not just, is not actually a law" ("nam mihi lex esse non videtur, quae justa non fuerit")  Saint Augustine of Hippo

#Kwonified

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LPGA Tour pros rotate pelvis and ribcage on average about 100°/sec faster than PGA Tour pros. That doesn't support the theory that faster rotation creates faster clubhead speed.

 

There are a lot of theories that sound good, but don't stand up under the light of measurement.

bought out by private equity.

capitalization, grammar and reasoning slashed as a cost reduction.

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