Pivot and arms

[stingerfade]

So then what moves the arms down into position? Hands? Upper arms? Body turn/lateral shift?

in slow motion I feel when I crunch my right side from the top while feeling the chest staying down the lower body turns and the hands come down, right side bend. Hard to do in fast motion For me

[Nickc]

Too much overthinking go on for me. Again I am fwiw going to promote Michael Mcteigue book and video lessons to engrain a simple & good sync of body and arms...

Here is a link to lesson one https://youtu.be/-JbeJ_iAykA

[Nickc]

If you look at the recent AMG video I posted the arms essentially drop as you re centre the body..The feel or intent can also be a throw as per Mike Austin or a cast as per Monte's no turn cast drill.

(The re centre-ing can be thought of as Monte's "bump" in the " bump, dump, turn" drill)

There is a danger of over thinking it all.. The sequence & syncing should feel natural... Even though you may need to select appropriate drills to get to that state.

[Hilts1969]

The simple answer is you or preferably an instructor(a good one) needs to see what you are doing wrong and find a way of getting you to do it right. As for AMG you don’t want you to drop the arms while you re centre. They want you to do this as you surf downhill in transition.

if there was a very quick basic guide and I’m open to being corrected it is:-

In the back swing once the clubhead is furthest away from you p2-p3 you start to re centre as the club is going back

this then continues into a downhill surf as the hands drop into the delivery position( hands around waist high p5.5j

rotate and release

[Golfbeat]

Just now, when I read "down surf" I thought about Tathata again! Oh boy.

[juststeve]

If your pivot is a response to the swinging of he club it will be in sync with the arms. Make your pivot a deliberate motion you try to make as you swing your arms you are likely to have difficulty timing the two separate motions.

Steve

[stingerfade]

me overthink? Never......ha

I wish I could be in the movie Spotless Mind and just erase all my memories of golf swing and start from scratch

[swh0507]

I feel like you guys are attacking a new poster who could be a great contributor to this board, but will probably stop posting because of this thread.

I am a fan of Monte, had a great online lesson with him. However, for me no turn cast etc. causes me to pull the handle worse with an internally rotated right arm. Leaving hands up with pivot has helped me. It is almost like everyone has different feels and different ideas work for different people!!! /s

Also I don't really feel like youtube videos are "data", but check out Andrew Rice locked down learning number 6. This is the discussion Ian Fraser at TXG stated helped give him the idea which helped him get 5 mph ball speed. Basically Sasho talks about turning into your left arm in transition. (Leaving arms up)

I think it would be great if we could discuss different philosophies/feels/ideas without attacking people.

 

[Krt22]

There is a big difference between attacking people and disagreeing with an idea/opinion that has been proven false with 3D capture systems.

[swh0507]

Cool so I'll just go back to snap hooking drives into the woods, because apparently I have the wrong swing feeling according to a youtube video. Do you not understand that some people might need different feelings? Especially those of us who already fire our arms causing us to lose posture, balance etc?

My issue was that yes, Nail was saying arms up was the way, but then everyone jumped on him like that it was wrong and there was only ONE right way. There are no absolutes in golf, just what works for the individual. I like to hear all different ideas and try them, since I never know what will help me. I like the AMG guys and their analysis is top notch, but that doesn't mean that it is BEST for EVERYONE.

[Krt22]

Now you are moving the goal posts. We are not discussing feelings or swing intents, we are discussing what is actually happening. Two very different things given a lot of the golf swing is counter-intuitive. Nail_it is making bold (and incorrect) assertions like faster body rotation results in higher CHS, not saying "Some people may need to feel like the body drives the swing". And the reality is most ams who lack rotation, lack it due to trying to do it too much or too soon.

[glk]

I I provided examples which included data to counter Nails posts. Other did too. Am I to take your initial post as an attack on me? Even in my post #57, I said the arms can "feel" passive. And one can "feel" that they leave them up. And in the course of the posts Nail stated other things that are incorrect. But most of all, he supplied no counter data - just keep responding with the same pivot slings arms and arms are passive - he never said it was a feel but was what one has to do - no other option . Seems you'd have an issue with that?

btw here is an excerpt from my post #57

there is a spectrum of swings where people recruit different power sources - some more lower body some more upper body and everything in between . See them as tour winner all the time. What you don’t see is tour winner with passive arms - or elite swings in general.

now you may feel the arms are passive. No Issues with that. But it just isn’t so and until you show some data then it is you with the unsupported opinion which you are free to have but just don’t go sending folks down the passive arm path rabbit hole. Monte has seen it so much he coined the phrase 68 ballerina to describe it’s effect - leave those arms up and fire that lower body. O la.

[Soloman1]

swh0507:

 

The video you posted has Sasho saying the same this I said about the shift happening before the top of the swing.

"Turning into your left arm" is "lead arm adduction," compressing the lead arm against the chest at transition. It is not a universal move by elite players, particularly with irons, but it is a variable that contributes to speed and also timing and clubface geometry at impact.

I didn't read any attacking. Opinions are fine, but measurement and data are reality.

[Nard_S]

JMO, the "leave the hands in the air" is an intent to offset a too slow or too late body transition and down move. Sometimes the issue is not that something is 'too quick" sometimes it's something else that is either too slow or late or just clumsy. If you allow shoulder rotation as the metronome of swing what you'll end up finding is hands have to fire earlier and faster to re-sync and connect up to arrive at plane or under it. Steep or OTT path is a misfire of that intent. Tricky is finding cocktail of directional "throw" and proper body movements with all timing triggers involved. Trickier still is proper deloft of hand & club face disposition at impact. Find it a big mistake, to be too hand or body or other "dominant" in a swing intent. A balanced open channel feedback loop between all is best. Where my hands, elbows, trail knee and shoulder stack together in down swing is key intent that sustain things right now. Passive hands/arms don't get me there. It's a strange irony, a smoother connected swing takes faster hand speed and done earlier.

[swh0507]

You know this is why I have 80 posts in 9 years. Almost every thread in the instruction section becomes an argument on who's philosophy is right/wrong. I much prefer to just read and figure what works for me, but no one wants to bring different ideas to the table because they will get shut down. (Yes I am aware pivot driven/hands up is not a new idea) All I am saying, is how about you have a discussion instead of attacking a guy especially who is a new contributor and might have a lot to contribute? Golfwrxers also thought Monte's No swing Cast was crazy until they found it worked for them.

Flame away, have fun. I am done with this thread and will not be responding.

[glk]

Smh

[MK7Golf21]

when you go down into a shot and swing arms at same time it will look closer to the body vs. someone who stands up and throws the arms. Gankas is big on leaving the arms up and passive in transition to fling them off later, just have to find what works best for you in regard to feels.

[Krt22]

Good, if you can't differentiate between objectively discussing actual swing mechanics vs swing intents and feels, well you should probably stay out of said discussions. If someone makes the bold assertions that 1) The body drives the entire swing and the arms are completely passive and 2) Faster body rotation results in faster CHS, well they are not actually being helpful.

[Zitlow]

Arms and body work together. Think of the left arm as a spoke on a wheel. When the wheel moves the spoke moves.

[Hawkeye77]

Nothing about his post was an "attack" in any sense, lol. Not going to comment further.

[Nickc]

That is what I am suggesting - watch & do the Michael Mcteigue series of lessons as though you are a complete beginner.. Then build from the "effortless" basics.

Note his method is pivot rather than arm driven... If want latter then look to Manual de la Torrre.

Both try to keep it simple but effective.

[stingerfade]

Watched all of those today. One thing I think everyone agrees on after reading all the different suggestions and books (I have every book mentioned) is that keeping the arms relaxed and tension free regardless of how you feel you power them is universal.

so there’s building block one :)

[PJ1120]

D Dahlquist advocates turning into lead arm also. Not surprising because he and Sasho follow each others instruction.

[nitram]

[Lobby]

I was having such a good time learning from Nail-It's posts. I hope he comes back. FWIW, I have the same swing faults as the OP.

[Nickc]

Great... But are you trying out all the stages and exercises he advocates...takes a little time but will get all in sync and can be supplemented in later stages (e. g basic arc ) with say a 9 to 3 drill as demonstrated by other teachers.

[kowalgolf]

I miss Nail it posts. I sent him a PM cause i was intrigued on what he was saying but hasn't replied yet. I'm starting my 59th yr. of hitting that little white ball and i hope we can all agree golf is hard. The problem is we as humans can not comprehend what's being heard or read. I remember an old video of Brendon DeVore with Monte and Brendon says Oh, i got it, i got it. Swoosh, no you don,t. I think Jake Hutt videos of throw the head away to start the DS and how the arms work in a golf swing are eye openers for an old fart like me and parallel what Nail it was trying to say but we as humans can't comprehend and digest the information to our brains to produce good results. Can we all agree golf is hard and feel isn't real? Then go out and chase your dream and hit that one shot that will hook you for life.

[glk]

Jake has a lot of good stuff on his instagram. It is a bit of a head scratcher when he says, arms do nothing in downswing. But the arms do something - the trail arm extends - when he demonstrates the arms with the pivot he extends his trail arm to get down to delivery - otherwise his hands would stay the same distance away from his right shoulder - they don't.

 

Not a new concept. This thread from 2014 talks about it. AMG and Shaun Webb have shown measurements of the trail arm extending - it rapidly extends after transition and then thru release completes the extension after impact.

 

[kowalgolf]

GLK, What are your thoughts of Jake's transition throw the club head away from the ball and how it brings the shaft down to parallel with the ground? No yanking the handle. Is this the conserve, conserve the energy Nail it is talking about then rotate?

[glk]

to me it is good advice. Direction arms move in transition is important. Energy is not conserved in the downswing but generated until about the delivery position where that energy is focused on transfer to the clubhead. Lots of ways to feel and describe this motion - quiver pull, tyler uses a hula hoop, etc It is counter intuitive that the arms work away from the target as the body moves toward it. It is a combo of trail elbow extending and lead wrist flexing (or trail wrist increasing extension or some combo of the two).

here is an Martin chuck lesson from 2012 on starting arm direction.

Here is Tyler's hula hoop for the quiver pull. Unfortunately, this video is on his pay site only and not on his youtube - but I snapped some photos.

Start position

Arms working to pull around the body with rotation.

Arms pulling down - crashes hoop into neck. Typical of this is people get narrow, have trail elbow too bent, shaft steep, rotation stalls, . . .