1966 Wilson staff flex...how stiff is regular?

[Stephen8802]

I made a shaft deflection board based off of the drawing in my Kaplan book. I haven't finished the graphing end, but I did some quick measurements of five 7 irons of known flex and some woods of both known and unknown flex. It was pretty cool, I'm looking forward to finishing the board and charting out all of my shafts.

Since it isn't done and I wasn't meticulous in my measurements, I may get different results when everything is complete, but the rough dry run leaves me perplexed. The woods lay out logically. The S300 shafts and 80's dynamic stiff lined up. The Propel 1 and Propel 2 had the flex difference I expected. The 693 wasn't as stiff as I thought it would be, but it was in the right range of stiff.

The irons, however, seem off. I tested five 7 irons, a Medallion with an Apex 4, an '84 staff with a Dynamic stiff, a '58 TP with a modern Dynamic shaft replacement, a DX, and a '66 staff with a clearly marked regular shaft. The '66 staff was about as stiff as the '84 Staff and the TP, and stiffer than the DX and Apex 4. The '66 is shorter, but compensating for length gave me similar results.

I haven't played any early Staff shafts yet, is it possible that a '66 regular is closer to an 80's stiff? My wife won't let me out to play until we get the all clear, so I won't be able to test with real swings for month or so, so this is all I have to go on. I'm going to finish the board this weekend and get some exact measurements, but it is an interesting start.

Has anyone here found the 60's Staff shafts to play stiffer than the label would suggest?

[cold_war_era_golfer]

Did you ever figure any of this out?

I’m wondering where a set of ‘63 Wilson’s with an R band would fall compared to today’s modern iron shafts.

[Stephen8802]

Based on the deflection board, I think the R on those Staffs is much closer to a modern stiff than a modern regular. I ended up selling that set because they were short for me and I didn't want to remove pristine leather grips to lengthen. I got a good price and have used all of that money to buy other clubs. Those were lovely irons, but I'm happy with the set of '56 Staffs I have now, so things worked out.

 

I've been fooling around with different shafts at the range lately and realized I don't mind hitting different stiffnesses. I picked up some random M85 and Byron Nelson irons for $1.50 each one day and enjoyed hitting both. The heads were very close in design, but the Nelson's had softer shafts. I was hitting the M85s straight and the Nelsons with a nice draw.  In the end, I was able to control both and would be happy to use a full set of either.

[James the Hogan Fan]

I recently bought a single DynaPower 4 iron from a thrift shop with a steel A-flex shaft. Feels the same to me as a 1990's Apex 4, and I could hit it fairly well without issue. 

 

I would say it is highly likely your R's play like S's. 

[Stephen8802]

That's interesting. There is a really nice set of '60s Staffs for sale locally south of Denver that look, from the not so great picture, to be in great shape. I sent some emails back and forth to learn more and they have the A shaft in them. Since the starting price was way over my budget, I wasn't really in the mood to reshaft an entire set,  and since I've picked up too many sets of irons this year already, I passed. Based on your comment, and based on how much I like my Apex 4 shafts, I'll be looking for something cheaper in that shaft to try.

 

They have been for sale for a while, maybe I'll throw a low number at them and see if they are willing to move them on.

[Gsea]

Totally anecdotal but my 65 Wilson Dynapowers with their Staff Pro S shafts seem to be the same stiffness as TT dynamic gold s300 that I play in a set of mizunos. 

[deejaid]

Well, I believe the shafts of the 1950’s to early 1960’s play stiffer than modern equivalents but a 1960’s A shaft is pretty whippy.   I picked up a Pedersen sand wedge off eBay just to go with a set of irons I have and it has an A shaft.   It’s ok as I’d only use it around the green but full swings were a no-go.

 

I also wonder about the flex point or tip stiffness of vintage clubs.   I’ve always played stiff in my modern clubs and at a fitting in August I was fitted into xstiff which really shocked me, but I’ve never had trouble playing the Pro Fit shaft in R or S and my collecting habits have resulted in me having a lot of  clubs with those shafts.  
 

The classic persimmon woods I’ve had the best luck with are my 1968 Powerbilt 807 woods with the “Super Action” shafts.   Sort of an entry level Powerbilt club, below the Citation line.   The shafts flex out right between stiff and regular but for some reason I hit these really consistently.

 

I guess you just never know until you get them in your hands.

[Swingingk]

Wow, I can't believe I missed this thread but I guess I haven't been on the board much this summer...

 

Stephen I would agree with you on your observations about mid 60's Wilson shaft stiffness.  I have found them to play somewhat stiffer than the label shows.  That is to say that I've found R labeled irons are more like R+ or S.  The S labeled shafts are very stiff indeed.

As for length I have found 60's irons to be quite comparable to modern'ish blade irons as long as your comparing loft to loft and not the club numbers.  I will concede that they are often a bit shorter even when comparing loft to loft, but it's rarely the emergency that a lot of folks think it is when they first compare old stuff to new - club number to club number.  

 

I'm 6'4" and I like my players to be a bit longer than "normal" but if I extended and regripped every time I wanted to play stuff from my collection I'd have a lot of work to do and a lot money to spend, not to mention losing a LOT of really cool original grips.  I'd rather just adjust my setup a bit and enjoy the original feel of awesome old irons.  ☺

 

[James the Hogan Fan]

On 9/25/2020 at 6:23 PM, deejaid said:

Well, I believe the shafts of the 1950’s to early 1960’s play stiffer than modern equivalents but a 1960’s A shaft is pretty whippy.   I picked up a Pedersen sand wedge off eBay just to go with a set of irons I have and it has an A shaft.   It’s ok as I’d only use it around the green but full swings were a no-go.

 

I also wonder about the flex point or tip stiffness of vintage clubs.   I’ve always played stiff in my modern clubs and at a fitting in August I was fitted into xstiff which really shocked me, but I’ve never had trouble playing the Pro Fit shaft in R or S and my collecting habits have resulted in me having a lot of  clubs with those shafts.  
 

The classic persimmon woods I’ve had the best luck with are my 1968 Powerbilt 807 woods with the “Super Action” shafts.   Sort of an entry level Powerbilt club, below the Citation line.   The shafts flex out right between stiff and regular but for some reason I hit these really consistently.

 

I guess you just never know until you get them in your hands.

 

I have to disagree with my sample size of 1 club. I was flushing that 4i shot for shot with my '03 Apex 5/6-irons. And I'm now playing modern clubs with Project X 6.5's, so the stiffnesses are really all over the place.

 

But I did not find the A to be particularly whippy. I suppose for the OP's purposes this seems to be very user specific.

[Shallowface]

Working from memory here, but I remember reading an interview with a Wilson executive (late 70s/early 80s) where he said Wilson shafts were "stronger than industry standard."  Just how much stronger he didn't say.

[johngalt312]

I have some all original Wilson Staffs from around 1964 (I think in R flex) that were my father’s that he bought new back then.  I also have a frequency and a MOI machine.  What are you looking to know?