Video - Throw clubhead outward immediately.

[GreatStrike]

Thanks! I appreciate the kind words.

I've learned that many of the intellectual golf gods everyone claims we should listen to and turn our golf swings over to don't have it as together as people think they do, especially when it comes to the typical amateur golfer looking to improve that tries to incorporate both swinging protocols and hitting protocols into their golf swing, which is like trying to put a square peg in a round hole and cannot possibly produce a favorable outcome. You rarely hear or read about separating the two methods, and the result of not addressing those differences is a substandard, inefficient golf swing that has little chance of improvement beyond a certain measure. And, with that comes scattered opinions and everyone second guessing everything - and the never-ending search continues on with no end point.

[SHAFUA]

The struggle is real honestly so frustrating knowing what you’ve done but seemingly can’t fix it

[MPStrat]

I assume you're talking in general about the person who muscles the club vs the golfer who desires to not interupt the flow of energy in the swing as opposed to the archaic and flawed TGM hitter vs swinger methods. You're talking about Joe Miller vs Troy Mullins?

[GreatStrike]

That's correct. My reference was actually about both "the person who muscles the club vs [and] the golfer who desires to not interrupt the flow of energy in the swing". The reality is, in my opinion, that almost always both golfers' swing methods have too many elements of the other's swing.

You are also correct that I was not specifically referring to TGM hitter vs swinger methods. I never spent much time trying to understand the author's convoluted subject matter. I'm not much for body part position golf swings or assembling specific body movements in arranged order to form a golf swing. But, I do absolutely believe that many elements of one swing method (a.k.a. the muscle type swing) cannot coexist in the other swing method (a.k.a. no interruption of the flow of energy type swing), and visa-versa. In fact, I believe that is why such a high percentage of well-coordinated, naturally athletic individuals don't achieve the golf swing they are fully capable of acquiring.

[Golfbeat]

At the 9:15 mark he shows how to hit up on the ball.

[pusb365]

I went to the range today for the first time in a few months after courses/ranges opened up here again and tried this method.

 

For 75% of the session it was great, I was hitting it straight and long, really good contact.

 

Then I went out onto the grass range and seemed to lose it, I was chunking everything.

 

But that first bit of the session was really encouraging, I'm looking forward to working on it again.

[GreatStrike]

You say that you've been a hitter for awhile now, and it is the only way you can close the face. You say that you have a ridiculously hard time closing the face just letting everything go... Here are a couple of things I want you to think about, and a couple of things I want you to do when practicing in your search of making a switch from muscling the golf club to swinging the golf club.

When hitting you're using your your muscles and brawn to force the club during the downswing and into impact with the ball. More muscle equals more speed, right? We'll get back to that in a minute. Anyway, it's more of a hit 'at' the golf ball, and you couldn't care less about what takes place after impact. In fact, after taking a mighty whack at the ball it's all you can do to recover and catch your breath. There's certainly no wrapping the club around your neck in the follow-through and posing for the camera, right? Also, when hitting you're using forearm and hand strength to twist the clubshaft so you can square the clubface through impact...and when you don't think you're able to quite square the clubface with your hands you'll give it a little extra body rotation heave-ho in hopes the clubface somehow squares up. Like Arnold Palmer's golf swing - it's a violent action. It's the most common golf swing action you'll see at practice ranges worldwide. On the other hand, when swinging a golf club, as Sam Snead so elegantly displays in the above video, there is no sense of hurry, no sense of violence, no sense of using muscular strength to force anything, and no sense whatsoever of the 'need for speed'. What! How can you play decent golf and hit a golf ball as far as you need to without mustering up as much arm speed as possible to create blazing white-hot clubhead speed. How can this be you say.

When hitting you start the white knuckle, speed producing, muscle-aching, arm and club speed gathering adventure pretty much right from the top at your transition. When swinging, however, pretty much everything you are used to doing is just the opposite. When swinging the grip pressure is light and the arms are quite passive - pretty much lifeless. The arm's weight dropping down with gravity is really all the speed that is needed. Much more arm speed and things go haywire. I know - you think I'm crazy! Where the swinging the golf club really comes to life, and is almost magical, is with the wrist action, the release. You see, when hitting you must forcefully manipulate the golf club. There's not much free-flowing double pendulum action when hitting. How can there be a free-flowing swing when you have a death grip on the club's handle and your wrists are locked-up with tight tendons. The swing is pretty much contrived - it's really not much of a 'swing' at all because it's a forced, manipulated movement.

Here's the way you should think about the golf swing when practicing and learning to swing the golf club. I'll tell you right now that I'm fully aware that a lot of it won't make good sense to you.

When swinging the grip pressure needs to be 'consistently' light, maybe a 3 out of 10, just enough to retain control. Arm speed is blah. What do I mean by that? I want you to feel that the slower the arms move in the downswing, the better. I want your heart and soul to be your wrists. Your wrists will be your 'love potion number 9'! Your wrists are going to be like the goose that lays the gold eggs. Back to the casual arm speed - if you can physically make your arms move as fast as let's say a speed of 40 with your muscle swing, I want you to let them fall at a speed of just a small fraction of that speed. If you rate the speed of your arms moving from just gravity alone (without any added energy or force to help speed them up) at a speed of 10, I want you to have your arms move/fall no more than 10, and preferably only an 8 or 9. I know, I know - this sounds crazy! But wait, it gets even crazier. As your arms and hands move through impact I want their speed to be coasting - in other words not accelerating but not decelerating either. This 'coasting' speed through impact is very important. The reason why it is so important is so your newfound, idolized wrists can perform their magic. Only when your arm speed is gravity speed slow, and your grip pressure is consistently light, and your wrists/hands only coast through impact - will there be a natural release of the club and a natural squaring of the clubface without any help, force or manipulation on your part. Trying to add arm or clubhead speed, or trying to square the clubface, or tightening up the grip pressure is all a form of manipulation and will upset the swing much like it would destroy the orbiting motion of a rock swinging around on the end of a string.

Now, back to wrists. As long as you keep the arm speed at no more than gravity speed, a consistently light grip pressure, and coast the hands through impact - you should find that your passive wrists will be easily encouraged (gently prompted at most) to swivel/twirl/pivot from the weight and momentum of the golf club with no added force from you. Your wrists will act as if they are stainless-steel ball-and-socket swivels. You should get the full benefit of the double pendulum release. When you are practicing think about Sam Snead's oily golf swing or Ernie Els' easy, effortless golf swing. Since you are not forcefully driving the arms and club, and not attempting to make the arms or club move as fast as possible in the downswing, and you have passive wrists ready to swivel from the weight and momentum of the golf club, you should start seeing and feeling what a swinging golf swing is like... Give it some time, nothing comes easy. Start out with a short or mid iron. Tee the ball up to make things easy. You're learning something new and it feels weird and different. You should start seeing some good results every so often in your early practice, with the ball taking off like a rocket when you put practically no effort into the swing, much like Sam's effortless swing. Compared to the heave-ho muscular type swing the swinging type golf swing is rather magical. To the onlookers, they will be befuddled by how you are able to hit shot after shot after shot with the same excellent results, the same trajectory, the same wonderful sound of compression, and make it look so damn easy.

[Ezgolfer]

Another good post Nail it.....

[Golfbeat]

Man, he can write!

[trilerian]

Wow, thanks for that! I will say that you are advocating makes sense. Whether or not I can get my body to cooperate is another question entirely. It's just like bowling... When I got lessons for bowling my coach wanted gravity to drop the ball and I was only trying to guide it at the end with the release. But I never got there, I always wanted to throw an arm cranking ball, and thus my speeds were never as good as they could have been. I just couldn't let gravity drop the ball for me, in my mind all I would see is arm collapse and the ball dropping to the ground behind me. So, this will take a lot of work... My natural instincts are to swing as hard as I can, I mean, how else are you supposed to build speed? Getting my mind and body to accept this is going to be a struggle. It will take empirical proof of the swing producing good results. Seriously, just sitting here thinking of it, I don't see how the club head will not just drop into the ground behind me. I get it, body turn, but if we are talking completely letting go, will my body turn? I hope so, I hope this produces a paradigm shift in my understanding of the golf swing.

[Ezgolfer]

The sitting ball is the problem. I can do everything Nail it said without the ball being there...

[Sparklestone]

On the subject of the O.P., I have to say I've tried this move many times since watching the first Monte Scheinblum "No Cast Swing Drill" as well as Jake Hutt and several others who advocate something similar (IE: Pull the arrow out of the quiver, etc.) . I'm not saying it's bad advise but it just hasn't worked for me. Using smart phone slo-mo to look at what I'm doing I can see there is no change whatsoever in my impact position by doing this. Having just retired, I have decided my life's mission now is to get rid of the cast/premature wrist release/flip that I've developed.

When I practice and play a lot my scores are decent. When I've had a layoff, like what's been forced upon us now, things can go haywire. I have fairly good hand/eye coordination and am usually able to square the clubface and get the ball to go where I'm aiming but have have suffered from early release ever since a back problem about 10 years ago slowed down my rotation through impact. I think that's the crux of my problem. (Note: That's what I think, not what I know for sure.)

Monte says the cast is a symptom, not a disease. I'm still trying to diagnose the disease. Next suspect: Too much forward hip sway? To be continued.

[Golfbeat]

He says that it needs to be accompanied by a good pivot. So perhaps the issue is there: a stalling of the pivot.

[Krt22]

Agreed, but if the pivot is stalling it's usually a reaction to something else

[Minarets]

if i already cast, is this the wrong idea to take in my head? or try anyway?

 

thanks

[Golfbeat]

Agreed, an open club face will be a good example.

[GreatStrike]

I understand your apprehension that your mind and body may not allow you to carry out what is needed. You're no different from most men in your thinking. Your natural instinct to swing as hard as you can in an effort to build speed is actually impeding your ability to produce easy speed. I'll give you a little bit more to think about.

From what you've revealed about your modus operandi (i.e. swing as hard as you can) if you and Sam Snead were standing beside each other, both of you swinging a rock around on the end of a string - your current method equivalency would be to have your arm moving around and around wildly, whereas Sam would be twirling the rock on the end of the string at lightning speed using his wrists. Which method is more efficient? Which method maintains the rock in perfect orbit? Which method provides the most speed? Is it magic? No. It's kinda like watching Sam Snead's elegant golf swing on the practice range compared to an amateur golfer that feels the need to use every fiber in his body to move and manipulate his golf club. Call it technique, physics or whatever you like, but to most people effectively and efficiently swinging a golf club that has a clubface attached to the side of its shaft for the purpose of striking a golf ball laying on the ground is totally counter-intuitive to most people's common sense. Overcoming this incorrect perception and embracing the remarkable reality is as much a hurdle, if not more so, as acquiring a sound golf swing.

Your best bet to gain a mental understanding and acceptance of swinging the golf club (instead of muscling the golf club) is to start with chipping and little shots that purposely are not supposed to travel very far. It will be easier for you to 'not' believe you need to add arm speed, or to use force in an attempt to increase clubhead speed, or to tighten up your grip pressure, or the need to purposely square the clubface. Forget about making speed in the swing, and forget about intentionally using force. You're immediate task is to learn and accept that speed and force is not to be part of the process. As difficult as that is to accept, that is your assignment. Crawl before walking. Baby steps...

[Hackinator]

Hmm.. how is your swing plane? I mean, just casting w/o having good set up fundamentals and reasonable good swing plane is probably not going to cut it.

 

 

[oukeith]

Is this drill the opposite or counter to the classic pump drill? If so, how would one determine which to practice?

[chigolfer1]

I have to say this move is confusing and it feels like one of those things that if you think you're doing it, you can actually be doing it very wrong and messing yourself up even more. Does anyone agree?

[glk]

Timely by Martin

[torbill]

Disagree. That is a robust swing, given her size/stature and experience.... and every one of her “shots” is right down the middle. Look at the way that her left elbow folds after impact, exactly like the video in the OP. And that folding of the elbow, as demonstrated in the OP video, is where there is a lot of speed/distance. He is also teaching her to cover the ball (okay okay, covering the weed) with the tip of the tool, exactly like Jimmy Ballard coached major champions to do, for many years. “Cover the ball with the toe of the club” - Ballard. To do that you do the downswing that is the topic of this thread, and you do not pull on the butt of the club.

[Hilts1969]

A cast to me is throwing the clubhead in front of you and getting the right wrist and forearm in a straight line. It may be towards the target line if you move your shoulders open and high or away from you if you have arm overrun just to get them back in front. A basic casting action of a fishing rod.

If your right wrist is somewhat bent at the top of the swing and left wrist is flat or slightly cupped you just ulnar deviate the left wrist(left pinky towards left forearm). This moves the club away from the target line and shallows. The right wrist doesn’t straighten. If you take your left hand only and clench your fist like a golf grip and slowly push your pinky to your forearm look how straight the left wrist remains. Now do it as quick as you can notice it bows after it’s reached the limit of its ability to keep straight.

Do the same with with both hands together in your grip. The right wrist doesn’t lose its bend but increases its bend. If you keep pushing ulnar of the left wrist ie pinky to forearm even beyond its limit of motion something has to give. You should notice your forearms have to roll and eventually the left elbow will fold.

This one small move of the left wrist is your whole movement of the arms from top of the backswing to finish, pinky to left forearm. Doing it at full speed with a ball and syncing it with a good pivot is the hard thing. If you pull on the handle and or cup the left wrist you then have to add compensations. If you concentrate so much on the wrist movement and don’t pivot enough you will hit it big time left.

The good thing is you can make this wrist movement on any length of shot even small pitches. If I had the patience or if driving ranges in the U.K. were open I think grabbing a 9 iron and starting at 30 Yard pitches and working up to a 100 would be a good way of doing it.

[torbill]

Well obviously I’m not being literal about hitting down the middle. What I am saying is that she has good fundamentals that will lead to nice shots. If the frame of reference is Brooks Koepka, then her swing isn’t very robust. If the frame of reference is young, small girls who are learning the game, I think that most competent instructors would agree that she is off to a real good start. Martin Chuck, a very competent instructor, obviously thinks so.

As far as coming out of the swing, perhaps you could comment on this player “coming out of the swing”:https://youtu.be/XiEKwFA0Lr8

And her shots look to me to be pretty much right down the middle, too.

[Krt22]

lol. Would love to see your swing and stable of students to critique Martin Chuck in such a fashion. Good lord

[pusb365]

There is definitely something in this. Maybe not for everyone, but for some people with certain faults.

 

It's working for me anyway.

 

It felt like I was doing everything I shouldn't be - casting, flipping, rolling the wrists, all of that bad stuff - yet contact was great, direction and direction control were great.

So I filmed myself and to my surprise I was not not doing any of those bad things.

 

The befores on the left was me trying to hold the lag, get my hands on my left thigh etc while hitting foam balls at home last week. The afters on the right are trying to throw the club away on the range today (plus a little help from Monte who told me to extend more through impact)

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

Here is what is hard for golfers to wrap their head around.

Positions reaches in 2D stills, both involve reactions by the brain and..........the net result of two or more movements.

When you see that face on lagged position in an elite player and/or the down the line “shallowing” move of the center of mass, you have take into account that body rotation by itself, will bring the center of mass toward the ball In 2D down the line and lag the center of mass in face on 2D. So if the wrist action is also doing those things, you’re cooked.

Thats why when you try and create lag with the wrists, it almost always ends poorly.

So in simplified form, If you imagine the position you want from both angles......the body rotation brings the center of mass in one direction and the wrists in the other......then the throw actually makes perfect sense.

[ATLgopher]

How was the young lady behind you hitting them??

[PJ1120]

I was thinking the same thing. I'm 70 and almost feel guilty for even thinking that.

[nitram]

No guilt Sir. It simply means you're still alive!