Faldo vs. Mickelson, who was better?

[sonnygolf]

Phil easily. If there was no Tiger the talk will be between Phil vs Hogan. Faldo was lucky he faced chockers like Norman

[QuigleyDU]

I think it is Phil. and its not close.

[twidener]

Faldo.

[Hawkeye77]

Or his prime should have been sooner and he underachieved?

[Hawkeye77]

Are those standalone or double counting majors and WGCs, for example? I haven’t looked it up.

[JohnnyCashForever]

Faldo*. One more major, a very impressive Ryder Cup record, and no embarrassing displays at Shinnecock.

 

*Assumes that Phil does not get the career grand slam.

 

 

 

[Philomathesq]

For all those that keep saying Phil was hampered by Tiger, I just took a look at all Phil's 2nd place finishes in the PGA Tour from 1997 to present. I only found three instances where Phil lost to Tiger. So, I’m not sure the argument that Phil would have won exponentially more (or, hell, more than three additional tournaments) is valid. Moreover, we have no evidence that if Tiger weren’t around that someone else wouldn’t have stepped up. That is, simply because Phil finished second to Tiger doesn’t mean Phil would have won without Tiger competing.

2001 Bay Hill/Arnold Palmer2002 US Open (would have given Phil the Grand Slam)2005 Ford Championship at Doral

[cdnglf]

Faldo had to battle a cyborg assassin from the future.

[bscinstnct]

 

Good point. But there has to be some additional impact of one guy basically reducing PGA Tour events by 1/3. Including Majors.

 

What was the impact on the field, including Phil, when the red shirt shows up on Sunday? Bad on them, but how many guys pretty much resigned themselves to not winning before the tournament even started? Where without TW, you’d have a different dynamic of guys fighting to be top dog.

 

Without Tiger, Phil and Ernie may have had a different mentality. The worst feeling for an athlete is that there’s a guy out there who can kick your butt even on your best day. It happened to Ernie a few times and I think he said it took the wind out of him a bit.

 

And not just Ernie,VJ, abd Phil. But what about all the other guys?

 

I remember TW playing JB Holmes in the match play. JB was 3 up with 5 to play. TW makes 3 birdies in a row. Then he sinks a 36-foot eagle to take the lead on 17. They interviewed JB after and he was in a daze like a boxer who just got up from a KO.

 

Phil could have been a very different player if no TW. He’d be the top dog and that could have resulted is a higher level of focus.

 

 

[Philomathesq]

What you say is possible, no doubt. But query this: if Phil were affected by the TW effect (and I’m not saying he was/is), would he be able to be the top dog? My belief is that being top dog, and staying on top, requires quite a bit of mental fortitude. If one’s mental state and golf game is affected simply by TW showing up, it’s hard to imagine one being able to be the best player.

Evidence: Since Phil officially joined the Tour, the OWGR #1 has changed hands 65 times and 19 different players have spent time as #1. Phil has not ever been #1, while Luke Donald, Martin Kaymer, Lee Westwood, Justin Rose, and... wait for it... Nick Faldo (among many others) have been.

To be fair, this is purely academic and there is no right answer... especially if that answer is Phil. ?

[dalehead]

Exactly. Tiger changed the game. I know it’s trite to say that. But it took years for other players to catch up with the athletic style of golf he ushered in. Some players like Faldo and Norman were never heard from again. Other players had to adapt their game with varying degrees of success. Phil arguably did one of the better jobs in this respect. Would Phil have won more without Tiger? We’ll ever know, but without Tiger in the picture we’d be toasting Phil as the best player of the first two decades of the 21st century.

[KRAMER1997]

Let's see Faldo major wins: 1987 Open- Azinger blows a 3 shot lead at the turn, 1989 Masters Hoch misses a 2 foot putt to win, and obviously Norman shat the bed in the 1996 Masters. Just saying, Faldo was the beneficiary of a lot of chokes, and I think Phil will make one more run and seriously contend at Augusta or an Open before it's all said and done.

[Yuck]

Goood question, No Answer from me. but I did think Faldo’s utter destruction of Norman in the Masters was one of the finest final rounds I have witnessed in a major.

[Shilgy]

Funny, isn’t it? Some try to downgrade Tigers career by saying he came along when the tour was in a lull for talent. Then praise the guy,Faldo, for getting to #1 in that era. As I recall Norman was #1 a lot longer than Faldo. That said Faldo won more and Norman got there largely by winning less but always getting high finishes(some were stolen by fluke shots and some he blew).

faldo 9 wins 306 starts

phil 44 in 622

 

you do the math

[bscinstnct]

 

Thats stat is very interesting. In Faldos defense, I imagine he played more Events in his “prime” on the Euro tour. And I assume that he maintained his residence in England. Not like these days where all the good UK guys basically live here during golf season.

 

Also, I think Faldo was a “self made man”. Not from the same country club culture and pampering Phil came from. Modest upbringing and really bootstrapped it to make it in the game.

 

Tough customer, Faldo. You can see he takes great pride in what he has accomplished. He is introduced as “Sir Nick Faldo” by Nantz. I take that to mean he considers the honor a True hallmark of achievement.

[Shilgy]

When I first thought to look that up I expected what you are saying about the starts to be true. But actually he had two long stretches where he played a full Tiger/Jack type schedule in the US with 12-19 starts.

https://www.pgatour.com/players/player.01326.nick-faldo.html

[Darth Putter]

Here's a close one, has Rory already caught Sir Nick?

 

Faldo

6 majors

3 other PGA Tour wins (his last was the 97 LA Open an event Tiger still hasn't won)

24 other Euro Tour wins including 4 British PGAs

Order of Merit leader 1983, 1992

PGA Player of the Year 1990

OWGR #1 81 weeks

National Opens won: British, Irish, French, Spanish, Swiss, Belgian

 

McIlroy

4 majors

14 other PGA Tour wins ( a TPC, 3 WGCs, 3 FedEX Cup Playoffs, 2 Tour Championships)

7 other Euro Tour wins (a British PGA, 2 Dubai Tour Championships)

Race to Dubai winner 2012, 2014, 2015

PGA Player of the Year 2012, 2014 and PGA Tour POY 2019

OWGR #1 101 weeks and holding

National Opens won: USA. British, Australian, Canadian, Irish, Hong Kong

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bscinstnct]

 

Just took a quick look. Now this is interesting, he played a lot on the PGA tour in the early and mid 80s. But he did not win much.

 

But, when he stopped playing much on the PGA Tour, perhaps because it was too much of a grind trying to play a lot of events on both tours, he started to win a lot.

 

In 1987, he dialed down to only 6 PGA Tour events (down from 16 in 1986). And he won his first major.

 

From 87-92 he only played one season of more than 9 PGA PGA Tour events and he won 5 of his 6 majors.

 

In 1990, he played only 7 PGA tour events and he won 2 majors.

 

 

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

I was going to say Faldo based on his 6 majors than included consecutive Masters wins, but looking at the record posted here, I'd now have to say Phil has the better career. Put aside who faced the tougher opposition or how each player found themselves in a position to win their respective victories, Phil has a higher number of wins by quite a margin. I think he came from a comfortably middle class background, and as an only child, his parents were able to focus their financial resources on him. I think his father was an accountant; not sure what his mother did. Anyway, not poor, but not rich either. Now what I found interesting about him was that his first love was cycling, and at one point he wanted to be a professional cyclist. Pedalling for miles and miles on the round requires stamina and mental toughness, and I reckon his steeliness can be traced back to that.

[sailfishchris]

I had a wrestling coach and he was always impressed by guys who "did more with less". He would impress upon our team -The guy who willed himself to win...a finisher. Now who do you pick between Sir Nick or Phil? The supposed yardstick is majors so I'd say Faldo. Maybe, if Mickelson didn't have Winged Foot, I'd think differently.

[Body_Visions]

Faldo shot low to very low final rounds in all three Masters, or he wouldn’t have been in position for the “chokes” to matter. I have always thought he could have been lower in 96 had he needed.

 

Some good comparisons here, but I still go with Faldo as the better player, and as someone said earlier, “if I had to pick one to play a tournament for all my money,” I know who I would pick.

 

I have always said that if he had been born 12 years earlier, he might have won 10 majors, 10 years later, and it might have been 2. Maybe he would have stuck with more of the power game, and adapted, but I think it might have been tougher for him, as he just doesn’t seem wired to play that way.

 

Thanks for for all the responses!

[grm24]

It's double counting. Phil has 3 standalone ET wins. Tiger is credited with 41 ET wins. 33 of them are double counted majors/WGC events. 8 other outright ET wins.

[grm24]

Don't forget Phil lost the 2004 US Open at Shinnecock with a double on the 17th hole (while tied for the lead) and the 2013 US Open at Merion when he made 2 bogies with wedges in hand on the back 9. Phil was in the lead on the back 9 in both of those US Opens during the final round. It wasn't just Winged Foot. Winged Foot was his most memorable melt down in the US Open.

[Nels55]

Woods would not have been allowed to play during the time of Hogan's career.

[PhilWhitUK]

Personally I think if there had been no Tiger that Ernie would have been the top man not Phil. Everything I have read suggests that Tiger had much more psychological impact on Ernie than Phil. I think Ernie was shocked by Tiger’s emergence. So, I guess I am saying I am not sure Tiger is the reason Phil doesn’t have more majors (although he has a pretty impressive set and is an all time great for me).

[OldTomMorris]

OK then Hogan in the Woods era, you do realise it was a hypothetical?!

[DavidH88]

Faldo Vs Phil is a super tough question to ask but i think imo Sir Nick has the edge. Both however are legends of the game and they have had great careers. Considering the players in either era. Nick still had Lyle, Jack, seve, Azinger, langer, woosnam, olazabal, Norman, Floyd and so on while Phil had Tiger, Vijay, Duval to name a few so A/S on that front

when it comes to equipment then Nick goes 1up. i say this since the game was different back in Nicks era. persimmon drivers that had lofts of about 6* and butter knife like irons. It was skill. With the game evolving past 1997 then the baton was past when Tiger won the 97 masters.

With courses getting termed “Tiger proofed” then the players including Faldo was slowly fading away.

mentality wise Nick hands down, Nick was a golfing machine, hour after hour 1000 plus balls a day heck it took 2 years for Nick to rebuild his swing. Phil has however had meltdowns ie US Open at Shinnecock in 2018. Though that was crazy golf not great to see as a fan of the game.

whichever camp you are in you have to respect both legends, both had skills that was unparalleled for there eras. out of the 2 legends, Sir Nick for me.

[Cincy_Ken]

As a big Phil guy Merion was definitely the biggest missed opportunity. Winged Foot as the most memorable meltdown but he was striking the ball poorly that day and it caught him. I'd say he made a mistake in not pitching out and playing for no worse than bogey when he got in trouble but I wouldn't call it giving away the tournament- definitely giving away a spot in a playoff. Merion was the one that he has even said he should have won. But if he wins Merion does he win Murfield? I find it hard to believe that he knocks of the career slam in his first opportunity. So I'm not sure his career changes if he wins Merion.

[Lark]

Phil’s overall record in the majors is much better than Faldo’s. He had more instances of tough losses because he was in contention to the end much more often than Faldo. Nick has only 6 total 2nd or 3rd place finishes in all the majors. For the US Open, the PGA and the Masters, Faldo only finished in the top 10 thirteen times (and 13 for the British Open). Phil has 18 second or third place finishes in majors and 38 total top ten finishes. If you had to pick one for all your money, you have a better chance with Phil of being there at the end.

[ewfnick]

I would definitely go Nick Faldo, if his career had coincided more with the Tiger era, I think Nicks competitive edge would have made him an even better player than he was, he would have thrived on the competition.