Has Scotty Cameron lost his Mojo

[RodrigoNicely]

Curious to everyone’s thoughts. Loved Scotty Cameron even being a lefty as a young man. Seems like the last 5 to 6 years or so have been pretty underwhelming. OTR putters seem to not move as well. Phantom line already appears to be blowing out as places like Dallas golf and quickship golf have bought up excess inventory. They sell new for 200 or less. Haven’t heard much about the Special Select line. That and the headcovers have really dropped off. Seems like companies like Swag have taken a bite out of his market. I have to say the swag covers are much better quality and why Cameron has not gone to magnetic covers baffles me. Curious as to everyone’s take

[Scotty1140]

Every release he’s had for the last 10+ years people ask this. He’s doing just fine.

[RobotDoctor]

In the past 10-15 years a lot more boutique putter manufacturers have become options more people have discovered. There is still a market for Cameron putters for those who are not as equipment savvy as those who frequent internet golf sites. Those who come to GolfWRX, PutterTalk (when it was up), or a variety of sites have learned of other putter makers and some have ventured to try them. Before I signed on various golf sites I was pretty much a Cameron OTR and Limited edition person. I had purchased many putters and was gaming a Inspired by Brad Faxon putter. Once I joined the SC collector site I befriended several moderators and the original owner. In PMs I learned of other makers as these people were not able to be talked about on the board. When PT was created I really learned about putter options out there. To have Cameron make me a custom putter was simply out of the question, both in terms of access and price. To have David Mills make me a custom putter was simple and access to David was easy. David has made me two custom putters, I still own one of them. I then learned about Byron Morgan and have developed a friendship with him. Byron has made me several custom putters including my current gamer, copper plated carbon steel Epic Day Long Pipe.

That being said, the non-golf site golfer seems to gravitate to Camerons but there are also popular options from Taylormade and Odyssey, among others. I played golf yesterday with two young guys (early 30s) and both were gaming Cameron putters and loved them. One of them noticed my putter and asked about it. The look on his face was priceless when I told him it was made by the guy who taught young Donald how to use a Bridgeport mill. That said, he still loves his late model Laguna he had the Custom Shop refinish in black with University of Nebraska colors and stampings.

[Rory4Pres]

All I want is what he made in 1997 but with 20-25 grams more weight in the head. He hasn't redone that model and nothing else then has been comparable from any of his more recent releases so I went the boutique route and haven't looked back.

 

There are a ton of scotty fans out there though.

 

As for headcovers, I don't know/care.

 

I don't think swag is taking much market share though. I think boutique overall has taken a small share but his 2020 select line has done well since he ditched the stupid insert. He offers what people want in this circle T line but other companies offer that, more customized, for 1/4 the price. no brainer.

[PreppySlapCut]

Nope, there’s just more options out there. And that’s a great thing for consumers.

[GeorgeHWB]

Do you remember Jick's "Fall of the Cameron Empire" thread? That was epic. That was also about 10 years ago.

 

 

 

Edit - it was from 2007! Good grief that's a long time ago. I can't find the actual thread and I suspect it was deleted because a few months after that epic thread the owners put up a "The Cameron Bashing Stops Now" thread that was likely a directive from Titleist.

[Medson]

Was that the "mini" thread? The "mini" thread was ... epic. In the past, there would be a "is Scotty overpriced?" or "is Scotty going down?" thread on this forum every month.

RobotDoctor summarized the boutique side of things fairly well. So read that.

While I agree there has not been any excitement in OTR in the last 6 years (this year's Special Select seems to rejuvenate the OTR), Scotty continued to reinvent his business model with the Gallery. I don't have any insight into his business, but my guess is he's probably doing more than fine.

[MattUtah]

The Special Select range has apparently sold really well. I bought a NP2 and love it. The Phantom line I think was a colossal flop. I’ve never seen anyone play one and they’re dirt cheap.

[GeorgeHWB]

The mini thread was separate. That was truly epic as well.

[tlehmann]

Grabbing the popcorn now...

[GeorgeHWB]

You'll want it. Here is the Cameron mini thread in all its glory:

https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/277979/scotty-cameron-classic-mini/p1

 

Edit - unfortunately the posts by Forgasim have been deleted. He was the Bettinardi confidant who blew the whistle on the existence of an extra Cameron mini. You can still see some of his posts that are embedded in other posts.

[Medson]

This is jick's original post on "The Fall of Cameron". It looks like it's written in 2006. Man, I'd love to own a brand new 009 for $2000. LOL.

"The Wilson 8802 and the John Reuter Bullseye were legendary putters that lasted forever. Now they aren't being produced anymore. In the late 80's, everyone and his brother owned the Ping Eye2 irons. Today, Ping is no longer in the Big Three (Titleist, Taylor Made, Callaway) but have a smaller market of trickled down Eye2 fans and those who support US made product. In the early to mid-90s, everyone seemed to own a Callaway Big Betha or Great Big Bertha or Biggest Big Bertha. Today, Callaway does not dominate the driver marketplace and the Big Bertha brand has been relegated to their more affordable line.

 

All good things come to an end, and the end of Scotty Cameron's domination in the putter wars is near.

 

Before, most of the top players in the world used a Cameron. Now, the only holdover is Tiger Woods while Els, Singh, Mickelson, and Garcia have switched elsewhere. And the putter Tiger uses is no longer in production by Cameron - a plain stainless steel Newport 2 model. All of Camerons Newports today have the gimmicky inserts with screws and urethane backing that have turned off the his loyalists who preferred one-piece putters, and Cameron has changed the shape (as seen in his Te13 10th and his Newport 2 Detour) away from the Woods look. Cameron cannot expect to win new fans on the basis of has-beens like Love III or Faxon anymore.

 

Aside from the top players switching out of Cameron, another contribution to his downfall is his failure to have successful original designs. The Futura line never really took off and has really low resale values when compared to even older models. After initial buzz, you can no longer see the Detour in tour pros' bags even if Cameron proclaimed it in a Golf Digest interview as the next revolution in putter-making. Cameron's lack of talent in original designs has been exposed once he tried making originals. Sure, every other putter maker makes a copy of the Ping Anser, but they do have original designs that have sold and gained tour usage on their own merit: Bobby Grace's MOI, Odyssey's Rossie & 2-ball, or Bettinardi's BB43. 

 

The Internet has also been a place for information dissemenation, where Cameron's extremely high unconsciable margins have been exposed. Cameron started selling Newport 009 as custom order at $2000/piece. This brought the rise of new boutique putter makers (Slighter, Byron, 350milled, TP Mills, Palombi) who would do the same customization as Cameron does for the tour, but at a fraction of the price. Seeing prices of Golf Pride grips at $5 or AME putter covers at $25 makes one wonder if the Cameron name really worth a 200 to 300% increase in the price for the same product? The high cost of restoration in the Cameron shop ($150/minimum) brought forth the discovery of Black Oxide Services who are much cheaper and have begun to diversify their finishing options.

 

It is also in the Internet forums where collectors learned of many things such as: Bettinardi used to mill for Cameron but quit when Cameron wanted to go more mass market, or that Cameron outsources his production to other machine shops with a few lines being in the past being done in Asia. Meanwhile, Bettinardi still mills and produces putters (even his Mizunos), in the same Chicago facility where he is located so he can keep an eye on the ball all the time.

 

Other questionable practices were brought to light thanks to the Internet. What once was a badge of getting a putter from the tour van - the Circle T stamping is nothing more than just a money-making novelty from the Cameron Studio. Many Circle T putters never see the light of the tour van even if they are purported to be tour. Instead, they go straight to the his selected sellers. There is a tinge of deception in the Circle T brand nowadays. Another great Internet debate that has never been answered because Cameron has been intentionally vague about it is the German Stainless Steel issue. Experts say that it is just regular stainless steel off Germany and doesn't cost much more to justify his making putters out of it for $5000. It just just a cash cow Cameron made with marketing.

 

People have come to realize that not only is Cameron overpriced, he is also controlling the price of his own putters - thanks to his policty of limiting his authorized distributors for his non-production putters. This actually puts into question the "limited" nature of these putters. People who check eBay, and the TCC buy and sell have come to realize that these non-production putters aren't as rare or as limited as one was misled to believe. They are everywhere. Cameron has realized his retail market share is dimishing but he still has a loyal fanbase of collectors, so lately it seems he has concentrated on cashing in on the loyalist more than the retail buyer. 

 

The most recent controversy, which has to do with the eBay Cameron putter milled by Bettinardi back in the day when the latter used to mill for the former, has caused a lot of outrage and resignations in The Cameron Collector forum because of Cameron's denials about his not knowing of the existence of the putter and his lies that it was "modified" when in fact all accounts and studies of the photos reveal that the face was milled before it was stamped. This has also brought into light the underbelly of the TCC forum - which is very similar to the another "bombastic" forum in the Internet - censorship, post deletions, and giving members a hard time if their opinions do not suit Cameron interests. The was once a forum where members could freely discuss their love for Cameron, but once it got big, Cameron got a hold of that forum, told his henchmen to take over, and now it is no longer a discussion forum but more of a propaganda forum where you are censored or banned if your views are contrary to theirs.

 

Looking at the big picture, there are much more people leaving the Cameron fold and going to boutique putter makers compared to new people joining the Cameron-loving ranks. There is no question that Cameron is losing his fanbase quickly, not to mention his tour presence. In the PGA, there is a big decrease in top pros using his putter while in other worldwide tours, he doesn't have that strong a presence at all.

 

So a lot of things are coming together today that would bring about the fall of the Cameron Empire: (1) top players in the world no longer using his putter; (2) realization that Cameron lacks skill with his original designs; (3) overpricing of custom shop and tour merchandise to maximize profits at the expense of the loyal collector; (4) the rise of cheaper, but better or same quality, alternatives in the form of custom boutique putter makers; (5) the rise of other milled putters in the market (Odyssey Black Series, Nike Unitized, Macgregor Bobby Grace, Mizuno Bettinardi, Ping Redwood) to give buyers more alternatives; (6) the GSS debate and the current eBay Camenardi denials and other internet issues that have exposed Cameron's questionable practices and intentions, (7) the realization that Cameron's production putters cut corners and are outsourced while some of his rivals like Bettinardi refuse to compromise, and (8) the rise of technological innovation in putter designs such a roll-face technologies and high-MOI's that Cameron has not jumped into yet and will be too late when he does.

 

Cameron was just a marketing genius who was on the right place at the right time. But now people have come to realize that there are others with more talent than him but did not have his luck and shrewdness. Or there may be people who aren't as opportunistic and profit-oriented as Cameron. Sure they have their principles but they aren't as rich as Cameron. 

 

Today, there are many who make higher quality retail products, and others who offer better customer service when it comes to customization options.

 

Believe it or not, the end is near. The fall of the Cameron empire is upon us."

[GeorgeHWB]

Awesome find. I could not find that thread.

[anythingfinite]

I don't see me ever getting rid of my California Del Mar, so if he dies, he dies. Hahaha.

[MattM97]

Don't think so just think there are way more options now. Like an 009 style you can probably get a similar, bang on or original *cough*DH89*cough* from a dozen or so guys for less than an 009. They'll still sell new releases, the Special Select seems very popular after ditching the insert.

Also I think all the CircleT putters posted from tour WITB posts are always popular and get people talking, I'm not a huge Cameron fan but some of those tour putters are drool worthy.

As I said I'm not much of a Cameron fan, I'm a lefty and we get the shift from Scotty among others. If I wanted a Scotty I wanted I'd have to win the lottery or get on tour and neither are happening.

 

But rambling aside Scotty isn't dying just more options.

[Jc0]

Cameron is now a gateway putter to the high end market. The standard designs always sell ok and retain value, while the mallet designs seem to be hit or miss and loose their value much quicker (ex. futura and detour). People look at Cameron as being their first nice putter. I think the big thing is that people would go from series to series because the updates actually felt and looked different. Now pretty every putter since the select series around 2009 seems the same. People who want to stay in the high end price range either upgrade to a tour Cameron or move to a boutique brand. We haven't had a carbon general release Cameron in years.

[RobotDoctor]

Bob Bettinardi made those putters, not Cameron. Bettinardi was contracted to make all the putters for Acushnet/Titleist/Cameron. Ever notice the difference between the first generation of TeI3 putters without the elastomer ring and the second generation that had that? BOS could not make putters with the precision of Bettinardi. I believe the end of the Bettinardi relationship was after 1997.

[Sean2]

In January I was looking for a new putter. I hit the SC's, but ended up with an EVNROLL. For me it felt better and I was more consistent with it. The all black with red accents looks nice too.

[RobotDoctor]

I really like the shape of the Scottsdale Anser with the rounded heal/toe slopes. Cameron's rendition of that in the 009 is very nice. That said, how many people want to spend $2,500-$10,000+ for one? Not many. A GSS custom welded neck 009 would be a special order and probably in the $8,000+ range, maybe over $10,000 since it is a custom neck. Certainly not available for the average "Joe." Meanwhile anyone can contact Byron Morgan and/or one of his sales reps and order a GSS DH89 with a welded flow neck for just north of $1,000.

 

How much would this cost if this was a Cameron made putter? Best part is I went minimal with stamping on this putter. Only a vertical Byron Morgan on the face. This putter was made to my specifications that Byron determined when I was in his shop in the summer of 2014. A personalized putter fitting session, custom DH89 GSS for a super great price (must have been a good Fish Taco I bought him for lunch).

For OTRs Cameron is price competitive with the higher end OTRs but options are limited. For a custom putter made by the designer a Cameron is simply out of financial reality for most people while Byron Morgan, LaMont Mann, David Mills, Kari Lajosi and several other makers is in the realm of financial reality.

[MattM97]

1K is still a lot for many people but you still kinda made my point with all the options for putter makers, there are even some that give similar options for less. All these putter makers are just giving people more options to get the exact putter that they want or the ones of their dreams with many being so unobtainable. For some Scotty is the only putter maker for them, for others Scotty is the last guy people will buy a putter from, does that mean he'll be out of business soon? Definitely not, he'll be around selling putters even after some of these smaller companies are not.

[2012BFT]

Where is everyone finding these “dirt cheap” Cameron’s?!

[Scotty1140]

I hadn’t joined wrx at that point and I think I missed that one. If it’s even half as entertaining as the Mini thread oh boy

[dan360]

He found a Rolex-style marketing niche with the ultra high dollar custom stuff and is going to ride that train until it chooches no more. There's a LOT to milk out of it. Keep it simple, keep it sturdy, and keep them in the hands of those who sink putts for millions on TV.

I reckon he, along with upper level brand design engineers, have spent some time with the Swiss watchmakers and possibly with Grand Seiko's watchmakers, for their finishing is second to none when it comes to polishing, use of angles to create depth, and the translucent coloring that to me, when put together as a whole 'putter' just screams as a combination of Geneva Seal and Zaratsu....

They sell just enough of the OTR equipment to remain as Titleist's brand. They sell every $9,000 piece of art they can pump out, and people in the middle who are too rich for OTR but too poor for the Gallery find solace with Piretti, Swag, and the rest, and Cameron is plenty OK with that because like it or not, it's the benchmark, no matter where is original designs came from.

 

 

[MattM97]

Used section/bargain bin at golf shops, good guys on the BST and just pure luck.

That's how I got my "cheap" Scotty, pure luck in the used section at a golf shop.

[GeorgeHWB]

Marketing yes. Design and finishing? I’m not seeing it.

[tangojay]

Here is my 2 pesos

Scotty Cameron putters is run by Acushet Golf who is owned by FILA. Therefore, IMHO, SC putters from the $399 to 10K putters are made by ,,,,,, FILA. Don “T” Cameron is IMHO, nothing more than the face associated with the brand.

I always wonder who stamps and shapes those Galleria putters? Back in the days when I could not afford a OTR Cameron (divorce) all I wanted was a 009. Several years later and a career change, I was able to afford a 009, BUT, I had to take what was out there, they were telling me I had to take what they give me.

I ended up buying what I later found out had a tour win BEFORE the 009, a Byron DH-89, stamped and finished the way I WANTED, actually ended up with 4. Couple of years ago I was able to compare it to a 009, NO DIFFERENCE.

 

So in conclusion, Titleist which is owned by Acushet which is owned by FILA is who appears to have lost their “mojo”

 

But I could and have been wrong before

[RobotDoctor]

Yes, $1,000 is a lot more than many can or are willing to spend on a putter. My point is that my putter (which I did not spend $1,000 on) would have been a $10,000 putter from Cameron (give or take a little) and there would be no possible way I would have been able to get the stamps I wanted. For many people it is the accessibility to the putter maker and that relationship that is important. Of course the amount of money a person has to soend is also a factor. For those who think that they can spend $150-$200 to a boutique putter maker and get a putter, well that is just not going to happen. But in the $300 range and then the range of choices begins. While this may be carbon steel putter and stainless may be a bit more. But now we're talking a realm of possibility for what a person can pay for a Cameron OTR. On the flip side those who want a Cameron is still going to get a Cameron.

There are those who want to get a Mercedes when all they really need is a Hyundai. There's nothing wrong with either car so it comes to preference and a little style. To each their own is what I believe.

[RodrigoNicely]

Great responses. Just from my my small bit of research it just seemed a lot of people that used to be diehard Cameron guys have slowly moved on. Very good discussion

[MattM97]

I get that and I agree with what you said and even $1000 if someone really wanted that putter could save up for it for a special occasion gift to themselves. I get some still can't afford it but for others it just makes a dream putter a more obtainable goal where most Cameron's they just window shop like the rest of us.

[roundersmitty]

"Has Scotty Cameron lost his mojo"

This happened to Austin Powers once. So my guess is the Fat B...… OEMs got together and flooded the market with a wide selection of putters to suit everyone's preferences, hence stealing Scotty's mojo.....