Has Anyone Ever Come Across A Moe Student Or Graves Golf Academy Pupil?

[EmperorPenguin]

All this talk about Moe being the best ball striker ever, in addition to various superlative declarations, I want to know from the community if anyone in real life has ever come across a Moe student, whether taught by Moe himself, or through the Graves Golf Academy. I have never come across a Moe golfer, and if I do see a top graduate, I expect to see every green in regulation and every fairway hit. I first heard of Moe way back in 1995, and through the years of playing golf at a hundred courses, I have never come across a Moe golfer. I don't mean in a general sense single-plane golfer, but I mean somebody who built a swing with the specific intent on emulating Moe's swing. I have never met one, nor have I ever seen one in person anywhere, so maybe there are people here who have. So if you were lucky enough to have been paired up with such a golfer and saw him play, I must ask you two simple questions: 1. How did he strike the ball? and 2. What did he shoot?

[ChaosTheory]

I’m one for 15 years now. Before it, my typical score was 95. I broke 90 once.

The Moe swing, as best I could do it, pretty much immediately dropped me to the mid to low 80s, where I remained for years. In the past couple of years I’ve gotten down to an 8 index because I finally put in some work on my short game. This winter in Arizona I’ve broken 80 about a dozen times, the lowest an even par 72. With a 3 putt on the last hole. ?

I’m not athletic and don’t like to practice, so this swing was a godsend. I took a couple of lessons, and otherwise studied materials from and corresponded with Natural Golf, Scott Hazledine, Graves, and Kirk Junge.

I would characterize my ball flight as straighter than most players of equivalent skill. Less curvature and less dispersion. There isn’t much clubface rotation, which IMO is the key to a more accurate swing for average golfers.

I got these results despite never quite getting the swing down pat. It’s still a golf swing; you have to put the club on the ball within a tiny margin. As far as repeating the strikes like Moe, not hardly. But our last home was on 6 acres, and I had a hitting mat. Sometimes I could get in a groove and hit a couple dozen 9 irons in a row onto say a 40 foot circle. But not usually. I’m just not that talented. Generally I hit a good number of greens if I am playing appropriate tees.

[TexasTurf]

The person who I have observed that I know has worked with him before strikes the ball ok, but there's not much behind it. Straight though, and a good player. Don't know if he is still a student.Shoots a few over par consistently on a hard course. Extremely good putter though. Makes almost everything.I read the book and tried it. Extremely technical. Forces going different ways and counteracting each other through impact. Pretty much goes against everything that Zitlow talks about on this forum. To me it it seems like an overly technical way to describe how to best swing on the old PVC circle swing trainer.

 

[ChaosTheory]

Kirk Junge is a lot less technical. So was Natural Golf, at least in their later years. Graves is very good for explaining why a thing is important, what it does, etc. Sometimes I find that very helpful.

[Nels55]

I have given this swing several different efforts over the years including a series of lessons from someone who was teaching the Graves method in 2017. I did a lot of drills and worked pretty hard on the swing but it never worked very well for me. When I had the lessons I realized (again) that really disliked the grip and also having my hands way up high so the setup just did not work for me. I also read the Natural Golf book back in the 90s and watched a lot of instructional videos over the years.

I have met a few golfers who knew who Moe Norman was but I had never run into a true believer while out in the world until a fellow who I golf with quite often took it up. He was not a real good player to start with and he was terrible when he first started trying to swing like Moe. LOL he took more then a little grief for his setup and swing for a while there. He has gotten fairly good at it recently and is probably back at least to where he was before he went off the deep end on it.

On the single axis golf forum there were a number of golfers who subscribed to the theory and some who seemed to be fairly successful.

[SEP1006]

Well I don't have the Moe or Graves swing but I do have the 1-plane swing. Converted to the DeChambeau swing method along with the big grips as well. When I started this method about a year ago my HCP stayed around 12. I am now at 6.2 and more consistent than I have ever been. With a lot less practice as well. As the post above stated Kirk Junge has some good info on his site and not too technical either.

[EmperorPenguin]

If anyone knows, what is the greatest achievement of any Moe student as described above? Byrson does not count. Has a Moe student succeeded in the sense of, say, first stage of US Open qualifying, or Player of The Year at your local state organization? For me, I have never even met a Moe student or seen a Moe swing in real life. I am just curious as to how well Moe students are doing outside of the late Moe himself, but Moe players are so few and far between.

[ChaosTheory]

Todd Graves played mini tours with it, years ago.

A current student, Reed Howard, seems to be doing the same.

If you played with me you’d probably just think, “Another guy with a homemade swing. Hands high, straight arms, a hacker.” Because we’ve all seen that a hundred times. You’d have no way of knowing that mine has the details that fit the model and make it work decently.

One of the closest I have seen on TV was Carl Petterson at a certain point in his career.

[ChaosTheory]

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2tpSIu0GAQ

not Moe, but in the ballpark.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Snowman9000
fixed bad link

[MountainGoat]

I studied with both Todd and Tim Graves as well as Kelly Murray. Todd and Kelly both traveled with Moe and learned directly from him, but they came away from the experience with entirely different interpretations. Other than those guys, I don't know anyone who has gotten the system to work, and lord knows I tried.

 

[EmperorPenguin]

Well why is the Moe swing not working? 55 Canadian Tour titles and 33 course records. With that measure of a success at golf, there is no wonder people are studying his swing because Moe was obviously on to something. However, we know the sad story of how he could not handle the big-league Tour due to the harsh treatment. I looked at his actual record on the PGA Tour and I found 27 events played, 25 cuts made, 1 top ten and 7 top 25. On the Geezer Tour he played five events and made the cut in all five, with one top three and two top tens. Very respectable, yes. I guess he couldn't putt.

Compare Moe's career with fellow Canadian George Knudson. George had eight wins on the PGA Tour and twenty-two victories in Canada, and he was a lousy putter. George has a more conventional swing and more success here in the States, but fewer wins in Canada. There is no doubt in my mind that with this apples-to-oranges comparison, Moe's system works. You have conventional swing, stack & tilt, homemade swings and Moe's swing. I guess that Moe's swing is just another homemade swing, and despite all the marketing and even Moe academies out there, I thought there would be at least a couple big-name tournament players who use that swing.

Is this whole thing just a case of a few guys promoting a homemade swing and hoping to score a unique niche in the industry? Can we start an Eamonn Darcy golf school?

[ChaosTheory]

Todd Graves believes in it for the same reason I do. It turned his golf around. So that’s why he teaches it.

There are swings which aren’t well suited for elite players but are good for struggling ordinary players. I don’t think tour validation is important, myself.

[Nels55]

Moe's game was based on hitting the ball straight and he was not worried about hitting it as far as possible. I don't know if that approach works in today's pro game? It seems like pros now days go for hitting it very far as they know that when they have a hot week they can shoot lights out and win or at least make a big check.

It would be interesting to see how Moe would do now days with modern equipment and a less harsh environment. Possibly hitting every fairway and green for four days would produce some good tournament results. As far as Moe's swing mechanics go he did make a lot of typical pro movements with a rather weird setup position. There are claims that he setup that way because he liked to have people watch him swing and nobody paid attention when he swung more normally. It is my belief that he would have been just as good with a more traditional looking setup and swing.

[EmperorPenguin]

I was reading some comments on a Todd Graves video on YouTube, and one of the questions posed was why Tour pros do not emulate the swing. His response: shots from the Moe swing are more accurate but not as long as those from traditional swings. Any ideas on how much distance would be lost on a Moe swing versus a traditional swing?

[ChaosTheory]

For me, none. For an elite player, probably some loss. Todd Graves hits a basic 5 iron 185.

[Nels55]

Interesting, I don't recall ever hearing of Todd Graves saying that. All quotes I can remember of his are that there is no distance loss. Do you have a link to that one by any chance?

[MountainGoat]

Tim Graves is pretty long and Kelly Murray was a long drive competitor.

 

[EmperorPenguin]

It took me a while looking into my YouTube History, but here is the video I am talking about.

question was pretty far down the comments, so I will attach a screenshot of the question and Todd's answer.

I perhaps may have misquoted him, but the implication of Todd's answer here seems to me a concession that the Moe swing results in higher accuracy and distance is not a premium. Can the Moe swing be used in a long-drive competition? That is, can a human with a Moe swing carry the ball 400 yards? After all, in the competition you only need one ball in the grid, but with a Moe swing, how many balls can a long driver get in the grid, and at what cost of distance?

[Nels55]

@EmperorPenguin, thanks for digging up the quote! It does indeed seem to be a bit of a concession by Todd to accuracy over distance though he does mention that Moe was not short. My opinion is that trying to exactly replicate Moe's swing which is what the Graves teach is not a very good idea for most people and will result in a loss of distance. The wide stance makes things more difficult then they need to be. There are other Single Axis teachers who teach or taught a more conventional setup such as Krik Junge and Scott Hazledine.
As for long drivers a lot of them do set up with the hands fairly high and some have strong trail hands so I suppose to some extent they do some single axis stuff. A long ways from Moe though as they don't restrict any part of the swing and are going all out for distance.

[games]

 

Reviving this thread in light of BDC's new found distance...

First, Moe was unique. Was his ballstriking a result of his method? Or simply hitting millions of balls?

Second, you can't dismiss Bryson who is reported to have taken an almost scholarly approach to the best way to swing a stick to hit a ball. It is reported his only guidance has been his coach, Mike Schy, who reportedly grew tired of BDC's questions on the swing, and simply handed him a copy of The Golfing Machine. My point is that BDC's success warrants scrutiny of his method. Like Moe, he learned for himself. Unlike Moe, it was more of a scholarly approach...

I laughed at some of the questions in this thread related to tour-level success with single axis. The answer lies in the book "The Talent Code." If most (all?) touring pros had professional instruction at an early age, and those instructors are not proponents of single axis, how can you expect to have tour success? Another reason why BDC is in the conversation, since he had a coach that didn't inhibit him from adapting it on his own.

That said, on tour, Carl Petersson has been mentioned. IIRC Jeev Milkha Singh was fairly close to single axis, as well. It's been said Steve Stricker showed some single axis characteristics, as well. There is a top female long drive competitor that is shown to employ single axis, too.

Finally, a lack of tour player adaptation should not be equated with potential utility and application of the method to recreational golfers seeking improvement.

[MountainGoat]

The original question was about Graves. There is a difference between the broad categories of "single axis" and "single plane" and the versions of those that are taught by Graves. The Graves approach is strictly focussed on copying Moe. It's not about applying the general principles and adapting them for your individual tendencies. There are a lot of single axis and single plane players at the professional level, depending on how you define those terms. There are zero Moe disciples. None.

"The Golfing Machine" is not a single plane book. It is a collection of swing parts that can be assembled in different ways. Bryson assembled one set of those parts into his way. He's happy to tell you which parts he used.

 

 

 

[BeCu_Ping]

I use it (Graves Golf model) and have for about 10 years. It allows me to play more consistently than my old traditional two plane swing. I could not break 80 from my teens to late 30's. Quit golf early 40's, I am in 50's now and have broke par several times. The single axis / plane swing is easier on my body. No I am not long but thats ok, I am in fairway more and consistency is norm. Agree its not for everyone and it requires IMO full commitment and practice.

One thing that I will say is there are many that look like they set up in a single axis/plane posture but one needs to watch from impact to finish.

IF the lead leg and knee are straight then its not what Moe and Graves did/does >>Bent lead knee through impact. No snapping/posting lead leg, standing up out of ones shoes (long drivers).

That is also IMO a major challenge with someone switching to single axis/plane, the move down -- transition like Moe/Graves do. It is hard and frustrating to master without lots of practice both with and without hitting balls.

Agree 100% with MountainGoat post above.

[Woodridge]

I've just recently started working on the Moe/Graves model. I have Todd's book and have been watching a ton a videos. I also just finished a biography on Moe.

I've had two really good ball striking sessions and one really bad one. I'm 58 and have been playing for 50 years. Making a huge change like this has been good for my soul. I haven't taken it onto the course yet, but hope to over the weekend. Overall, I just want to enjoy the journey and am not worried about the short term results. My first teacher started me with the Square to Square swing when that first came out and I have a 1982 copy of the Golfing Machine, so I'm pretty open to swing theories.

[SwingBlues]

Same here - started the Graves model about 3 weeks last Saturday exactly.

For me, my biggest issue is my hips and it's total lack of mobility. Thanks to a severe whiplash that took me off golf for about 6 months. I tried Don Trahan's PPGS swing for a number of years. Played good but I still had a fundamental issue with my hips inability/reluctance to rotate and clear. I lost the spacing. I can see it but do nothing about it.

Not sure how or when or may be it's YouTube, it suggested one of Todd Graves "Rethink" videos and it just BLEW MY MIND. Here is the issue, here is a possible fix. Here's how it works. Try it.

1st round, I only tried the Grave swing with my driver only for the round. 1st hole, push toe right. Come the 6th hole, it started to click. Mind you, I had 1 range and 2 nights of trying to absorb Todd's basics. Come the 18th, hit one of the finest drives in recent memory and finish like Moe. Super solid and I can just crank it. There was something there

2nd round. Still not much better. Started cold with the driver again but this round I tried to use all full swing (except wedges) one plane. Mostly hot but some cold. Start to feel and understand more of the swing like keeping the trail foot down. It worked mostly.

3rd round. Full one plane everything including the wedges. Shot -2 for the round but I was paired with an extremely good scratch golfer. He shot -4 for the round and we had a great time, shot after shot, birdy after birdy. I was starting to "get it" and mosty everything worked. Of course, the exception was the 3 wood, that was mostly cold.

The real positive of the Todd Graves swing is the way he teaches to set and lock the lower body with the bent left leg on the downswing and the grounded trail foot. That is just PERFECT for my body. I can only rotate so much (as proof I tried the "traditional" Clay Ballard swing and my back was really killing me after, I swore off it).

As well, the one plane solved my spacing issue. My drives were out of this world - talk about hitting up on the ball, I had to change my tees to the 3 1/4 tees (I use to have 2 1/2).

All in all, I am convinced it's the swing for me and my body. As someone who use to laugh at the "Natural Golf" (I remember those infomercials from the 90s), I'll HAPPILY eat my words but it's now called a one-plane swing.

My 2c

[lenman73]

I, like the 2 posts above mine are similar. Really diving into this method now. I will apologize in advance for a windy post.

 

In 2002 I lost my swing. I mean it was gone. I went from good distance, but lack of direction at time the year before to barely being able to hit a 5 iron 130 for the next few years. I tried alot of things. I read everything I could read, even Hardy's book. Then an infomercial on the golf channel about natural golf came on. I thought why not. Ordered it, eventually even ordered the clubs. Well the distance never came back but I did lose the wicked weak slice I had. Then I gave up on it.

 

One day, maybe 10 or more years ago, I did see a guy using it at the driving range. He was hitting from right in front of where I parked. So I sit and watch for a while then notice the bag says natural golf on it. Looked like he was striking it good so I decide to rewatch the DVD's again and give her another go. Not much to be gained and started hooking the ball. Even last year tried doing Kirk Yunge's interpretation of it to no avail.

 

So I'm back to square one. But for maybe the last 4 or 5 years, especially the start of this year, the hooks are their with a vengeance. But I had worked hard and was gaining distance back. I don't mind playing the draw I taught myself, but the hooks were just too frequent. So I happen on some new content from Todd Graves on the YouTube and start watching since nothing else is on tv thanks to the covid.

 

Fast for to now. I gave this a full on effort for the last 2 weeks. Wasn't exactly like starting from scratch since I dabbled several times in the past. But in the past, whether it was Todd, Kirk or even natural golf, there was always little bits and pieces missing to make it make sense. Well I have to say Todd's new content, or at least new to me, within the last year, there was a light switch moment. Things started to make sense again. Over this last weekend I shot a 81 and 77. Not my best ever rounds, but they were the best I seen in quite some time.

 

Now I have less hooks. I have actually hit a couple intentional fades, something I could not do before because I had 2 shots. Left and left of left. Now I don't fear hitting every club left, and more importantly, zero distance was lost, and actually some was gained. I am in a happier golf place now. I will continue this and commented on one of Todd's videos and thanked him.

[SwingBlues]

UPDATE: I started my Grave's One Plane journey in June this year and I finally signed up with Todd Graves Gold membership. I need some help and its definitely set me straight since I started the first of this month.

 

I sent in my V1 video for feedback and it came back the next day. It was mostly setup and backswing. Firstly, Todds right, a lot of the work I have been doing is really with hitting the spots and using the V1 as a feedback tool. And working the body positions, without the club. With the membership, I got access to their nice collection of very instructive & detailed videos. The key word is "detailed" (as compared to whats Todd released on YouTube).

 

I think it was significant the changes my assigned instructor made me do... last Saturday, I went 2 under (5 birds, 3 bogeys) even playing in the blazing heat here in Los Angeles. It was a hot 113+ and I was walking with a cart and umbrella. While it was crazy, it proved that this swing is still very, very, very good in the stress of the heat and humid conditions. That was Woodley Lakes.

 

Then Labor Day, I shot +3 (5 bogeys and 2 birds) at Sterling Hills in Camarillo. This is on a course I have never played before. All I saw was baranca, weeds and tons of bunkers on the fairways and surrounding greens. As well, towering gum trees that seem to frame the driver shot and teased you to hit between them. Diabolical.

 

On that course, the One Plane driving was DELICIOUS, so nice to see a smoked drive exactly where you want to hit it and not worry about the houses or the baranca/ravines that line the fairways. I really had more fun than I expected. One bogey was because our foursome, for run, decided to play a Par 3 with our 3 woods so that hole bogey cost me a shot. One bird was a near Eagle on a hole I thought was a longish Par 4 but really was a Par 5. LOL.

 

Some other notes:

1. I had to change my tees from 2 1/2 to 3 1/4. I play the green "4 more yard" tees cause they last forever. As well, this is a good sign that I am hitting up on the ball. I always had a negative AOA due to the narrower stance with my old swing. This one plane has really widened my stance. At least I understand why.

 

2. I have to say too, Todd's brother Tim Graves and his short game technique especially the sand bunker work really helped me. Fingers cross I don't jinx myself, I have been out and close with the bunkers including a very difficult 50 yard bunker shot using Tim's technique. I have yet to leave one in the bunker since I started using Tim's technique. Mind you, not even practiced as LA is still under COVID lockdown & most city courses still have their putting and chipping greens/bunkers - all closed. Silly.

 

Right now, I think membership is really well spent and it's not that expensive - less than a round of golf with cart. The value for me is access to the detailed nuances of this one plane swing & the fact I can reach out to an instructor that actually knows the swing. There is no one even in this mega city who teaches one plane AFAIK.

 

Oh, my back is fantastic. Also, no loss of distance, just well hit shots.

 

Lifes good as golf is great.

 

 

[nlk10010]

As I've posted elsewhere, I've tried what seems like almost all the swing models and Todd's approach is the most "intellectually pleasing" to me. I like the way he presents the method, how the teaching is structured, and the swing model itself. For example, as a poster said above, the positive stops in the back and down swings and "swinging around" a flexed lead knee are things I should be able to emulate. I understand how they are supposed to work. It all "makes sense".

 

Unfortunately, I still cannot master staying down and reaching for the ball. Everyone is different and with my back problems (sciatica and arthritis) I can't turn my body first in the downswing. Yes, the non-rotational grip can give better contact and, when I get it right, I have hit the ball in a way that I haven't been able to with other methods (i.e. ball first, it flies) but my failing is hitting  at the ball with my arms and this will destroy the Graves swing as surely as it does most others. Even Kirk Junge's approach (with lets you stand closer to the ball) relies on body rotation. So if you have an issue with that you are, IMO, out of luck here. Too bad. As I say, I can see how Grave's model could be of real help to many people struggling with the golf  swing.

[SEP1006]

7 hours ago, SwingBlues said:

UPDATE: I started my Grave's One Plane journey in June this year and I finally signed up with Todd Graves Gold membership. I need some help and its definitely set me straight since I started the first of this month.

 

I sent in my V1 video for feedback and it came back the next day. It was mostly setup and backswing. Firstly, Todds right, a lot of the work I have been doing is really with hitting the spots and using the V1 as a feedback tool. And working the body positions, without the club. With the membership, I got access to their nice collection of very instructive & detailed videos. The key word is "detailed" (as compared to whats Todd released on YouTube).

 

I think it was significant the changes my assigned instructor made me do... last Saturday, I went 2 under (5 birds, 3 bogeys) even playing in the blazing heat here in Los Angeles. It was a hot 113+ and I was walking with a cart and umbrella. While it was crazy, it proved that this swing is still very, very, very good in the stress of the heat and humid conditions. That was Woodley Lakes.

 

Then Labor Day, I shot +3 (5 bogeys and 2 birds) at Sterling Hills in Camarillo. This is on a course I have never played before. All I saw was baranca, weeds and tons of bunkers on the fairways and surrounding greens. As well, towering gum trees that seem to frame the driver shot and teased you to hit between them. Diabolical.

 

On that course, the One Plane driving was DELICIOUS, so nice to see a smoked drive exactly where you want to hit it and not worry about the houses or the baranca/ravines that line the fairways. I really had more fun than I expected. One bogey was because our foursome, for run, decided to play a Par 3 with our 3 woods so that hole bogey cost me a shot. One bird was a near Eagle on a hole I thought was a longish Par 4 but really was a Par 5. LOL.

 

Some other notes:

1. I had to change my tees from 2 1/2 to 3 1/4. I play the green "4 more yard" tees cause they last forever. As well, this is a good sign that I am hitting up on the ball. I always had a negative AOA due to the narrower stance with my old swing. This one plane has really widened my stance. At least I understand why.

 

2. I have to say too, Todd's brother Tim Graves and his short game technique especially the sand bunker work really helped me. Fingers cross I don't jinx myself, I have been out and close with the bunkers including a very difficult 50 yard bunker shot using Tim's technique. I have yet to leave one in the bunker since I started using Tim's technique. Mind you, not even practiced as LA is still under COVID lockdown & most city courses still have their putting and chipping greens/bunkers - all closed. Silly.

 

Right now, I think membership is really well spent and it's not that expensive - less than a round of golf with cart. The value for me is access to the detailed nuances of this one plane swing & the fact I can reach out to an instructor that actually knows the swing. There is no one even in this mega city who teaches one plane AFAIK.

 

Oh, my back is fantastic. Also, no loss of distance, just well hit shots.

 

Lifes good as golf is great.

 

 

 

 

Man that's awesome and congrats. As I posted above I have never been more consistent since going to the DeChambeau 1-plane swing. Even though the set-up and stance are different from what Grave's teaches there are obviously a lot of similarities.

 

Just curious, did you go to bigger grips as well??

[garyt]

On 5/6/2020 at 9:07 PM, EmperorPenguin said:

Well why is the Moe swing not working? 55 Canadian Tour titles and 33 course records. With that measure of a success at golf, there is no wonder people are studying his swing because Moe was obviously on to something. However, we know the sad story of how he could not handle the big-league Tour due to the harsh treatment. I looked at his actual record on the PGA Tour and I found 27 events played, 25 cuts made, 1 top ten and 7 top 25. On the Geezer Tour he played five events and made the cut in all five, with one top three and two top tens. Very respectable, yes. I guess he couldn't putt.

Compare Moe's career with fellow Canadian George Knudson. George had eight wins on the PGA Tour and twenty-two victories in Canada, and he was a lousy putter. George has a more conventional swing and more success here in the States, but fewer wins in Canada. There is no doubt in my mind that with this apples-to-oranges comparison, Moe's system works. You have conventional swing, stack & tilt, homemade swings and Moe's swing. I guess that Moe's swing is just another homemade swing, and despite all the marketing and even Moe academies out there, I thought there would be at least a couple big-name tournament players who use that swing.

Is this whole thing just a case of a few guys promoting a homemade swing and hoping to score a unique niche in the industry? Can we start an Eamonn Darcy golf school?

Moe was a savant. Like people who can immediately play the hardest sonatas on the piano or memorize the phone book they often have one skill they are incredible at yet can hardly function in the real world. Plus he hit 1000's of balls a day. Yet his swing is always advertised as the "Easy to learn swing". I don't think there's anything special about Moe's swing, it was Moe that was special.

[garyt]

On 5/6/2020 at 9:24 PM, Snowman9000 said:

Todd Graves believes in it for the same reason I do. It turned his golf around. So that’s why he teaches it.

There are swings which aren’t well suited for elite players but are good for struggling ordinary players. I don’t think tour validation is important, myself.

 

I totally agree on this point for, be it the Moe swing or any other less conventional swing. Who cares if the pros use it? There's a TON of money to be made for the guy that develops a swing that easily allows people to go from 100 scorers to 80's scorers even if there's limitations in the swing that would keep the pros and other top 1% of golfers from using it.