Has Anyone Ever Come Across A Moe Student Or Graves Golf Academy Pupil?

[garyt]

On 5/6/2020 at 10:03 PM, Nels55 said:

Moe's game was based on hitting the ball straight and he was not worried about hitting it as far as possible. I don't know if that approach works in today's pro game? It seems like pros now days go for hitting it very far as they know that when they have a hot week they can shoot lights out and win or at least make a big check.

It would be interesting to see how Moe would do now days with modern equipment and a less harsh environment. Possibly hitting every fairway and green for four days would produce some good tournament results. As far as Moe's swing mechanics go he did make a lot of typical pro movements with a rather weird setup position. There are claims that he setup that way because he liked to have people watch him swing and nobody paid attention when he swung more normally. It is my belief that he would have been just as good with a more traditional looking setup and swing.

 

Plus he changed his swing quite a bit over the years. His original swing looked way more conventional. He changed a lot up to conform to natural Golf rules when they signed him. And still he striped it. Which is why I say it was Moe that was special, not the swing.

[SwingBlues]

2 hours ago, SEP1006 said:

 

 

Man that's awesome and congrats. As I posted above I have never been more consistent since going to the DeChambeau 1-plane swing. Even though the set-up and stance are different from what Grave's teaches there are obviously a lot of similarities.

 

Just curious, did you go to bigger grips as well??

 

No, I am still using the standard pure wrap grips and really, just the standard lie and loft. No tweaking of the clubs as yet. I know Todd recommends a club fitting but I feel I fit pretty good in these irons. I have a slightly weird grip set up also - my irons, woods and irons are all standard size. However, my 48* and 56* are mid size with the length "shortened/squished" as much as possible to promote less taper towards the end of the grip.

 

I 'll also add this as part of my swing change. My old swing - at impact, I can feel the toe hitting  or something funny going on with the club head & mat/ground that is twisting my club face. I think I was way too vertical into the ball because I had the common "stand up and jutt your right knee at the ball" syndrome (basically the inability to clear the left hip). However, this is now TOTALLY gone with the Graves swing and the fixed trail right foot. The spacing just helps me so much and the limited & stable supporting bent left knee at impact just plain works with my body.

 

Kirk Junge's One Plane swing is closest to BDC but I noticed that BDC has widen his stance since his early days. There was a Golf Channel interview with BDC's coach after his win at the Rocket Mortgage and he "quietly" let slip that they had some talks with Todd Graves. Be interesting to see what changes, if any happens.

[tm3]

5 hours ago, garyt said:

 

I totally agree on this point for, be it the Moe swing or any other less conventional swing. Who cares if the pros use it? There's a TON of money to be made for the guy that develops a swing that easily allows people to go from 100 scorers to 80's scorers even if there's limitations in the swing that would keep the pros and other top 1% of golfers from using it.

 

That was my thought when I saw Graves do a demo back in the late 90's.  Swing seemed much simpler and that it would allow for more consistency which should make the game more fun and the scoring better.  I played in a local charity tournament and came across a dude using the swing and he was very impressive;  I was sold.  I took some lessons from a natural golf instructor, watched videos, practiced, etc. but never got anything out of it.  Distance was less and consistency was no better.

 

So I guess to address the OP question I have seen one am who played really well with it, probably low to mid single digit HCP,  and played a few holes with one other fellow using it -- he was not long but very accurate and consistent.

[Richard Brochu]

Lived in Moe's home town, Kitchener Ontario in the late 60's but other than some newspaper articles about him wasn't a golfer or a fan. As a total coincidence took a few lessons from him at a driving range in Toronto in the late 70's to learn enough to play in my workplace annual tournament. Still didn't know about him. He was very quick and coldish, wouldn't look you in the eye, very autistic-like. He initially told me I was doing everything wrong, took the club from my hand and hit the most beautiful effortless shots I had ever imagined. He looked like a panther chasing a gazelle, powerful, athletic. The sound of contact was unlike any I have ever heard and I've stood behind Tiger Woods and others at the Canadian Opens since. I later saw him at several demonstrations like the re-opening of the Don Valley Golf Course in Toronto in about 1992. He hit from a tee on what must be a 150 degree dogleg left with a very large tree blocking all of the green probably 230 yards straight ahead. Yes Moe could consistently hit it straight but that does him a great disservice. He hit every club in the bag and left a pile of balls that you could put a towel over going up the dog leg. Then he would point out a leaf on the tree then proceed to hit called draws, fades, rising, dropping, every conceivable ball flight going toward the target. He would call how many times the ball would bounce after hitting the ground. He flew some over the tree onto the green and they held. In short it was inhuman to me. Look up Paul Azzinger describing this same thing when his college coach took the team to see him or Tiger Woods 2004 statement after winning some tournament about some day owning his swing like Moe. Why doesn't everyone use his swing? My humble opinion, :1) some golfers are macho jocks, the club is a sword, The same type of attitude some amateur guitar dabblers exhibit. Moe's setup looks different, people tend to want to fit in,look cool. If you saw Moe you would see how powerful he was. 2) He was Canadian. Not many Americans knew he existed, he didn't have sponsors, a clothing line, product lines or the look or personality to attract them I believe he was color blind as he wore some really weird combinations.3) He wasn't successful enough on the tour to build a following. Youngsters didn't try to emulate him: their fathers didn't want their kids to be like him. 4) People try his method late in life, or have bad backs, knees. The multiple axis swings are a young, healthy person's swing. Tiger Woods and many others have bad backs because of it. Have they hit less balls than Moe? How many haven't had the top coaches from infancy, teaching other methods: like Tiger and Jack Nicolas did. 5) Moe didn't get confident enough at communicating his ideas until he was in his 50s and only with a few individuals being able to see beyond the "oddball" that he was and taking the time to know him.

As I understand it the vast majority of golfers never break 100. I believe Moe's swing, as taught by Todd Graves ( got his book this week: it's excellent) would bring that average down. If young people took it up and kept with it they could be on the tour using this swing and keep playing longer. Most people who I have heard comment on Moe and his swing have only dabbled with it and eventually go back to the conventional swing. Others use modern equipment to analyze a few swings they have found and contradict what he said he was doing even though he was describing his " feeling" of the swing.

I'm thankful for the opportunity to vent my feelings after decades of hearing individual comments about the man. He was beautiful to watch in life and may he rest in peace. I will never forget him.

   

[SwingBlues]

@Richard Brochu thanks for sharing, really enjoyed reading your first hand accounts & experience with Moe.

 

My own journey into One Plane was through Todd Graves as well. Mine started in mid June and still at it. In September, I decided to sign up for Todd's online school as a "Gold" member.

 

Initially, I didn't think it would make any difference but to check it out. However, it has definitely improved my game.

 

Before Graves, my home course I would shoot high 70s on occasions, low 80s mostly and rarely touched Par. Now with the One Plane, mid 70s to -2 (twice -2 and once -1). Played Sterling Hills in Camarillo, California in October for the first time ever, never seen the course and walked away with 74 on a Par 71 & that included giving up 1 bogey deliberately because my foursome decided to play a Par 3 with 3 wood only.

 

To me, that Sterling Hill test was amazing. The guys I played with that day play it all the time and best they did was like an 85 so they weren't happy a n00bie came and played that well and they could not say sh*t because they saw the birdies, the drives, the chips, sandys and putts.

 

I am convinced now, the Moe Norman swing works. It is simpler, less sequence dependent since the "space" is already there and as long as you follow some golden rules & understand, it will hold up well even under pressure like a new course. Yeah, I truly consider myself a Graves Academy pupil.

 

 

With the Masters now memory, it was with quite surprise I found Todd has released his experience with Moe & him playing Augusta in 1997. If you are a Moe Norman fan, enjoy Augusta National, this will be a fascinating video from Todd...

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by SwingBlues

[milesgiles]

7 hours ago, SwingBlues said:

@Richard Brochu thanks for sharing, really enjoyed reading your first hand accounts & experience with Moe.

 

My own journey into One Plane was through Todd Graves as well. Mine started in mid June and still at it. In September, I decided to sign up for Todd's online school as a "Gold" member.

 

Initially, I didn't think it would make any difference but to check it out. However, it has definitely improved my game.

 

Before Graves, my home course I would shoot high 70s on occasions, low 80s mostly and rarely touched Par. Now with the One Plane, mid 70s to -2 (twice -2 and once -1). Played Sterling Hills in Camarillo, California in October for the first time ever, never seen the course and walked away with 74 on a Par 71 & that included giving up 1 bogey deliberately because my foursome decided to play a Par 3 with 3 wood only.

 

To me, that Sterling Hill test was amazing. The guys I played with that day play it all the time and best they did was like an 85 so they weren't happy a n00bie came and played that well and they could not say sh*t because they saw the birdies, the drives, the chips, sandys and putts.

 

I am convinced now, the Moe Norman swing works. It is simpler, less sequence dependent since the "space" is already there and as long as you follow some golden rules & understand, it will hold up well even under pressure like a new course. Yeah, I truly consider myself a Graves Academy pupil.

 

 

With the Masters now memory, it was with quite surprise I found Todd has released his experience with Moe & him playing Augusta in 1997. If you are a Moe Norman fan, enjoy Augusta National, this will be a fascinating video from Todd...

 

 

 

 

Glad you’re having success with it have you got a swing vid to share? I’ve fiddled with it out of interest but didn’t think it was a very natural way to generate power..

[SwingBlues]

6 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

Glad you’re having success with it have you got a swing vid to share? I’ve fiddled with it out of interest but didn’t think it was a very natural way to generate power..

When you say "I’ve fiddled with it out of interest but didn’t think it was a very natural way to generate power.." Lets break this down and re-assemble it to make sense of "power", based on what I experienced and learnt...

 

Natural way. If you take any photo of golfers at impact with a full swing, their wrist is in ulnar deviation (ala what your wrist does like in casting a fishing rod). Give a junior a toy golf club and he will naturally ulnar deviate at setup. Before Moe Norman, we have all been thought to setup in 2 plane but at impact we have a one plane. Our mind just wants to hit it with the "rod" as Todd calls this. So the Moe Norman/Graves swing has you ulnar deviated at setup. This does one very important & critical part of the swing: SPACING

 

Spacing. In a full swing, our mind makes our body make room at impact. No one swings a driver with the butt end close to his belly button and bent arm. All of end up with the ulnar deviation at impact but it's now we are thought that makes the necessary space for that to happen. Most of us make space by going vertical that is we are on our toes at impact with that straight left arm. The more athletic of us have the ability to move the left hip open and snap the left knee to make space ala most of the professionals and they make space diagonally. One plane already has the space and as long as you sequence it correctly and keep the trail foot down, you are good.

 

Sequencing. Every golf swing has to have a sequence. It's then up to the type of golf swing to determine how complex or simple it it. Here I am not saying it's easier with the one plane golf swing versus a 2 plane golf swing but different. You still need to execute 1-2-3-4 in both swings. Sequencing the backswing is the same - brace against the inside right thought, no swaying, rotate. Down swing is the similar it's just how we treat the left knee in the downswing thats the critical difference.

 

Downswing. Left knee and trail foot. Kirk's and Todd's one plane swing differs here. Kirk believes in a more regular 2 plane style leg movement while Todd's is more Moe Norman like with a flexed left knee and trail foot stays down (at least through impact) and released AFTER impact.

 

This is where and why I believe in Todd's One Plane. For me, spacing has always been an issue and it's because my right hip want to come in and it makes me go vertical at impact. With Todd's one plane, the trail foot stays grounded and it helps my body -not- get in the way of the downswing an my arms to have priority and move. Even in my old 2 plane, my best ball strikes were always when I kept my right foot "rolling" into impact. This was the deal maker here for me to take up Todd's one plane swing because it helps my space management and it reinforces what I already felt even in my old 2 plane swing days with the right foot trailing and not lifting. This part of the swing I am still working on it.

 

I don't know what you have "fiddled" with but I would probably suggest you go over Todd Graves "Rethink" series. He really does give some incredible, in-depth details about his Moe Norman one plane swing.

 

Power is all about contact. Improve your contact, improve your power.

 

Rethink Golf Swing Consistency with The Single Plane Golf Swing

Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb3fOJxTlG0&t=1103s

 

Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7lqQFTMbdA?list=PLeUCXkZVONv2yUPBEORuUdw9AT7nTqrOO

 

Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WfazhRmX4g

 

Part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDaP0iu0xyo

 

Part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGNOyofSAWA

 

Part 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6glrRKLyGQ

 

Hope this helps, ask away any questions. it's still a learning process for me, after all it's only in June that I started my journey... still a long ways to go but I think it's a positive one for me

 

One a side note, I did ask Todd about what his thoughts on DeChambeau's versus Moe bio-mechanics and speed but this post is long enough as it is. May be the next one... 😋

Edited November 17, 2020 by SwingBlues

[nlk10010]

As I've posted, I've examined (meaning embarrassed myself on the course trying to use) both Graves' and Kirk Junge's swings. While the idea of setting up almost in the impact position (I say "almost" because neither suggests setting up with your hips open, Junge says it makes the backswing too difficult) is the most distinctive feature of these swings, I've found that neither will work (at least for me) unless I master the separation of hips and torso in the downswing. Junge actually has a few drills that work on this, the idea of the downswing consisting of first a twist of the pelvis into the impact position while keeping the torso wound with arms back, THEN a release of the torso/arms. That gives the swing speed and, coupled with loose wrists that c0ck on the downswing, crisp contact. Unfortunately I keep hitting my irons fat, but that's just me, in THEORY it's supposed to work that way and the few times I've mastered this separation I actually have hit some good shots.

 

I think there is at least one other video on YT (forget which one) in which the instructor claims the "secret" (or one of them) of the golf swing is this separation. Of course we've ALL heard that one before.

 

[milesgiles]

3 hours ago, SwingBlues said:

When you say "I’ve fiddled with it out of interest but didn’t think it was a very natural way to generate power.." Lets break this down and re-assemble it to make sense of "power", based on what I experienced and learnt...

 

Natural way. If you take any photo of golfers at impact with a full swing, their wrist is in ulnar deviation (ala what your wrist does like in casting a fishing rod). Give a junior a toy golf club and he will naturally ulnar deviate at setup. Before Moe Norman, we have all been thought to setup in 2 plane but at impact we have a one plane. Our mind just wants to hit it with the "rod" as Todd calls this. So the Moe Norman/Graves swing has you ulnar deviated at setup. This does one very important & critical part of the swing: SPACING

 

Spacing. In a full swing, our mind makes our body make room at impact. No one swings a driver with the butt end close to his belly button and bent arm. All of end up with the ulnar deviation at impact but it's now we are thought that makes the necessary space for that to happen. Most of us make space by going vertical that is we are on our toes at impact with that straight left arm. The more athletic of us have the ability to move the left hip open and snap the left knee to make space ala most of the professionals and they make space diagonally. One plane already has the space and as long as you sequence it correctly and keep the trail foot down, you are good.

 

Sequencing. Every golf swing has to have a sequence. It's then up to the type of golf swing to determine how complex or simple it it. Here I am not saying it's easier with the one plane golf swing versus a 2 plane golf swing but different. You still need to execute 1-2-3-4 in both swings. Sequencing the backswing is the same - brace against the inside right thought, no swaying, rotate. Down swing is the similar it's just how we treat the left knee in the downswing thats the critical difference.

 

Downswing. Left knee and trail foot. Kurt's and Todd's one plane swing differs here. Kurt believes in a more regular 2 plane style leg movement while Todd's is more Moe Norman like with a flexed left knee and trail foot stays down (at least through impact) and released AFTER impact.

 

This is where and why I believe in Todd's One Plane. For me, spacing has always been an issue and it's because my right hip want to come in and it makes me go vertical at impact. With Todd's one plane, the trail foot stays grounded and it helps my body -not- get in the way of the downswing an my arms to have priority and move. Even in my old 2 plane, my best ball strikes were always when I kept my right foot "rolling" into impact. This was the deal maker here for me to take up Todd's one plane swing because it helps my space management and it reinforces what I already felt even in my old 2 plane swing days with the right foot trailing and not lifting. This part of the swing I am still working on it.

 

I don't know what you have "fiddled" with but I would probably suggest you go over Todd Graves "Rethink" series. He really does give some incredible, in-depth details about his Moe Norman one plane swing.

 

Power is all about contact. Improve your contact, improve your power.

 

Rethink Golf Swing Consistency with The Single Plane Golf Swing

Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb3fOJxTlG0&t=1103s

 

Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7lqQFTMbdA?list=PLeUCXkZVONv2yUPBEORuUdw9AT7nTqrOO

 

Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WfazhRmX4g

 

Part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDaP0iu0xyo

 

Part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGNOyofSAWA

 

Part 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6glrRKLyGQ

 

Hope this helps, ask away any questions. it's still a learning process for me, after all it's only in June that I started my journey... still a long ways to go but I think it's a positive one for me

 

One a side note, I did ask Todd about what his thoughts on DeChambeau's versus Moe bio-mechanics and speed but this post is long enough as it is. May be the next one... 😋

 

Thanks, it’s really not something I’m going to pursue in the foreseeable, i just find it an interesting concept.

I hit it fairly well and fairly straight the biggest thing I could do to get better is raise my SS from 100 to 110, and that didn’t feel likely trying to swing on a single plane. My right shoulder ends up in an odd feeling position which doesn’t feel at all powerful to me.

i think it takes a brave man to throw out what he thinks he knows about the swing and start again, so I certainly respect that 

[milesgiles]

2 hours ago, nlk10010 said:

As I've posted, I've examined (meaning embarrassed myself on the course trying to use) both Graves' and Kirk Junge's swings. While the idea of setting up almost in the impact position (I say "almost" because neither suggests setting up with your hips open, Junge says it makes the backswing too difficult) is the most distinctive feature of these swings, I've found that neither will work (at least for me) unless I master the separation of hips and torso in the downswing. Junge actually has a few drills that work on this, the idea of the downswing consisting of first a twist of the pelvis into the impact position while keeping the torso wound with arms back, THEN a release of the torso/arms. That gives the swing speed and, coupled with loose wrists that c0ck on the downswing, crisp contact. Unfortunately I keep hitting my irons fat, but that's just me, in THEORY it's supposed to work that way and the few times I've mastered this separation I actually have hit some good shots.

 

I think there is at least one other video on YT (forget which one) in which the instructor claims the "secret" (or one of them) of the golf swing is this separation. Of course we've ALL heard that one before.

 

 

I’m fairly sure Monte doesn’t recommend a separation of hips and torso.. interesting though 

[nlk10010]

45 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

I’m fairly sure Monte doesn’t recommend a separation of hips and torso.. interesting though 

 

I haven't followed Monte lately but last I recall he was gravitating towards the Larry Rinker model, emphasizing more of an "arm swing" (sorry, Monte, if I mischaracterized you). I took a look on YT and in fact there are a LOT of videos on this separation, some for the backswing, some for the downswing and and some over the entire swing. The reason I brought it up is that, again for me, a "stretched" feeling in which the arms are loose and lag behind the turning hips really gives me the most speed and crispest contact (relatively speaking, of course). IOW, I'm sort of putting the old "X-Factor" on its head:  Instead of creating tension on the backswing by turning upper body against the hips, I turn both on the backswing and create tension with my pelvis turning towards the target as far as it can while my torso/arms stay back and then release that tension by allowing the torso to spring. If that makes any sense.

 

Junge emphasizes this in his basic drills. I actually spent time doing them (and I NEVER have the patience to do drills) in the hope that they will get me, among other things, to keep the handle in front of the ball. I can see in videos that in my practice swings I do that but place a ball in front of me and I chicken-wing and flip. I have VERY active hands that I can't seem to get rid of (the activity, not the hands).

Edited November 17, 2020 by nlk10010

[nitram]

On 11/1/2020 at 5:56 PM, Richard Brochu said:

Lived in Moe's home town, Kitchener Ontario in the late 60's but other than some newspaper articles about him wasn't a golfer or a fan. As a total coincidence took a few lessons from him at a driving range in Toronto in the late 70's to learn enough to play in my workplace annual tournament. Still didn't know about him. He was very quick and coldish, wouldn't look you in the eye, very autistic-like. He initially told me I was doing everything wrong, took the club from my hand and hit the most beautiful effortless shots I had ever imagined. He looked like a panther chasing a gazelle, powerful, athletic. The sound of contact was unlike any I have ever heard and I've stood behind Tiger Woods and others at the Canadian Opens since. I later saw him at several demonstrations like the re-opening of the Don Valley Golf Course in Toronto in about 1992. He hit from a tee on what must be a 150 degree dogleg left with a very large tree blocking all of the green probably 230 yards straight ahead. Yes Moe could consistently hit it straight but that does him a great disservice. He hit every club in the bag and left a pile of balls that you could put a towel over going up the dog leg. Then he would point out a leaf on the tree then proceed to hit called draws, fades, rising, dropping, every conceivable ball flight going toward the target. He would call how many times the ball would bounce after hitting the ground. He flew some over the tree onto the green and they held. In short it was inhuman to me. Look up Paul Azzinger describing this same thing when his college coach took the team to see him or Tiger Woods 2004 statement after winning some tournament about some day owning his swing like Moe. Why doesn't everyone use his swing? My humble opinion, :1) some golfers are macho jocks, the club is a sword, The same type of attitude some amateur guitar dabblers exhibit. Moe's setup looks different, people tend to want to fit in,look cool. If you saw Moe you would see how powerful he was. 2) He was Canadian. Not many Americans knew he existed, he didn't have sponsors, a clothing line, product lines or the look or personality to attract them I believe he was color blind as he wore some really weird combinations.3) He wasn't successful enough on the tour to build a following. Youngsters didn't try to emulate him: their fathers didn't want their kids to be like him. 4) People try his method late in life, or have bad backs, knees. The multiple axis swings are a young, healthy person's swing. Tiger Woods and many others have bad backs because of it. Have they hit less balls than Moe? How many haven't had the top coaches from infancy, teaching other methods: like Tiger and Jack Nicolas did. 5) Moe didn't get confident enough at communicating his ideas until he was in his 50s and only with a few individuals being able to see beyond the "oddball" that he was and taking the time to know him.

As I understand it the vast majority of golfers never break 100. I believe Moe's swing, as taught by Todd Graves ( got his book this week: it's excellent) would bring that average down. If young people took it up and kept with it they could be on the tour using this swing and keep playing longer. Most people who I have heard comment on Moe and his swing have only dabbled with it and eventually go back to the conventional swing. Others use modern equipment to analyze a few swings they have found and contradict what he said he was doing even though he was describing his " feeling" of the swing.

I'm thankful for the opportunity to vent my feelings after decades of hearing individual comments about the man. He was beautiful to watch in life and may he rest in peace. I will never forget him.

   

 

Helluva first post there Richard! Welcome to WRX and thanks for sharing. 🍻

[TheDeanAbides]

For those who haven't seen it, here's Moe's swing as a young man. This is a thing of beauty. 

 

 

[tm3]

5 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

For those who haven't seen it, here's Moe's swing as a young man. This is a thing of beauty. 

 

 

 

Interesting, thanks for posting this.  To my untrained eye it sure looks more like the conventional swing than what he was doing later.  I wonder how/why it evolved the way it did?

[TheDeanAbides]

13 minutes ago, tm3 said:

 

Interesting, thanks for posting this.  To my untrained eye it sure looks more like the conventional swing than what he was doing later.  I wonder how/why it evolved the way it did?

Someone mentioned above that he did that for Natural Golf. I've no idea how true it is, but it does suggest that he could have moved the club any way he liked and been as good. 

[SwingBlues]

3 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Someone mentioned above that he did that for Natural Golf. I've no idea how true it is, but it does suggest that he could have moved the club any way he liked and been as good. 

 

Natural golf came a long time afterward, back in the 1990s when Moe was senior. Moe evolved this swing when he felt he had his unorthodox swing "trapped" around 19, pretty young, that's based on Todd Graves account (source Single Plane Golf Swing by Todd Graves)

[tm3]

1 hour ago, SwingBlues said:

 

Natural golf came a long time afterward, back in the 1990s when Moe was senior. Moe evolved this swing when he felt he had his unorthodox swing "trapped" around 19, pretty young, that's based on Todd Graves account (source Single Plane Golf Swing by Todd Graves)

 

Are you saying that the video swing above was before age 19 (I can't tell how old he looks -- I can't even tell if the person in the video looks like Moe!) because to me it doesn't look like the unorthodox swing that we see in most Moe videos (and that Todd Graves emulates).

 

The inventor of Natural Golf (Jack K-something) got a fair amount of press in the mid-90s and the buildup made it sound like he was really on to something.  Todd Graves sure was impressive at the demo I attended.

[SwingBlues]

58 minutes ago, tm3 said:

 

Are you saying that the video swing above was before age 19 (I can't tell how old he looks -- I can't even tell if the person in the video looks like Moe!) because to me it doesn't look like the unorthodox swing that we see in most Moe videos (and that Todd Graves emulates).

 

The inventor of Natural Golf (Jack K-something) got a fair amount of press in the mid-90s and the buildup made it sound like he was really on to something.  Todd Graves sure was impressive at the demo I attended.

 

I have no idea if that person in the video is Moe or not, it could be or it could also look like Lee Trevino - I just do not know other than to take the word of that YouTube poster that it is.

 

Remember Moe may have had his swing when he was 19 but he had to evolve. Just as when he worked with Manuel De La Torre whom Moe considered as a swing master instructor as well. I believe Torre taught Moe to be more rotational which gave him more speed and distance.

 

Todd was "mini Moe". His story into why he went into it is quite fascinating in his book.

Edited November 18, 2020 by SwingBlues

[Jumpman1231]

Just came across this thread looking up something else. Read all the comments and figured I’d share my own thoughts. I’ve always been good enough at golf but not as good as I want to be. In my mind I always thought if I found the time to practice I could really improve. Since high school I’ve played about the same level 90 average below good day above bad day. However I was always very inconsistent where I could go 40 then 50 to get that 90 ha! Finally this summer we decided we wanted to create an annual golf event to have 20 of our closest friends and family throughout the years gather for a 10 vs 10 Ryder cup style tournament. This gave me the motivation to start working on my game. So for the first time really ever i started to hit the range almost daily. Also started to play almost weekly. I also spent my nights watching golf videos and then would take that to try things out at the range. A couple months into this I started feeling like I was on the verge of consistency and becoming a mid 80’s guy which was my goal by our tourney time. Then out of no where I started shanking every iron from pw-4!! To the point I couldn’t hit the ball anymore and my own kids were laughing hysterically for good reason when we’d go to the range!  With the tournament coming up I tried everything I could find on YouTube and other places and nothing helped... then after seeing Bryson I stumbled upon Todd graves and now Norman single plane things. Out of desperation for any kind of fix I tried it out. The next day on the range I actually hit some irons properly. So I played with it a little more and saw more success. So I decided to go all in and watch all the videos and practice nothing but single plane in hopes I’d be back to what I used to be again. (as I’d began shooting over 100 for the first time that I can remember) by the time the tournament came I was able to shoot upper 80’s 5 of the 6 rounds and was happy with the progress. That was in august and now I’ve been using single plane since then. At the time of the tournament I was a 17 handicap and as of January I’m a 12.7. I’ve become much more consistent in my scoring and my miss hits are now still useable shots. My last two full 18 rounds i shot an 81 and 83. There has also been discussions around loss of distance. I’ve never been terribly long but I used to regularly drive it 280-290. If I tried and max out and hit it well I could get    310-320.  Before getting those distances with my driver I would lose 5-6 balls a round.  Now I’m able to get the same distances regularly but by staying with the limitations this swing sets for my body I can swing even harder when I try and go for it and have a much better chance of keeping it in bounds. Even had one go 350 this season which never happened before. I typically lose at most 1-2 drives a round now. I also used to scoop with my irons and now I have an actual negative attack angle which I gave up on ever achieving. So for me I love where my game is heading and hope to hit single digit handicap this year! I have two sons that are teenagers and one uses a conventional and one uses single plane. I don’t try and push anyone to do single plane as I don’t think it’s for everyone. However it has helped me a lot... now if I could just make a few putts 70’s are calling my name!

[SEP1006]

19 hours ago, Jumpman1231 said:

Just came across this thread looking up something else. Read all the comments and figured I’d share my own thoughts. I’ve always been good enough at golf but not as good as I want to be. In my mind I always thought if I found the time to practice I could really improve. Since high school I’ve played about the same level 90 average below good day above bad day. However I was always very inconsistent where I could go 40 then 50 to get that 90 ha! Finally this summer we decided we wanted to create an annual golf event to have 20 of our closest friends and family throughout the years gather for a 10 vs 10 Ryder cup style tournament. This gave me the motivation to start working on my game. So for the first time really ever i started to hit the range almost daily. Also started to play almost weekly. I also spent my nights watching golf videos and then would take that to try things out at the range. A couple months into this I started feeling like I was on the verge of consistency and becoming a mid 80’s guy which was my goal by our tourney time. Then out of no where I started shanking every iron from pw-4!! To the point I couldn’t hit the ball anymore and my own kids were laughing hysterically for good reason when we’d go to the range!  With the tournament coming up I tried everything I could find on YouTube and other places and nothing helped... then after seeing Bryson I stumbled upon Todd graves and now Norman single plane things. Out of desperation for any kind of fix I tried it out. The next day on the range I actually hit some irons properly. So I played with it a little more and saw more success. So I decided to go all in and watch all the videos and practice nothing but single plane in hopes I’d be back to what I used to be again. (as I’d began shooting over 100 for the first time that I can remember) by the time the tournament came I was able to shoot upper 80’s 5 of the 6 rounds and was happy with the progress. That was in august and now I’ve been using single plane since then. At the time of the tournament I was a 17 handicap and as of January I’m a 12.7. I’ve become much more consistent in my scoring and my miss hits are now still useable shots. My last two full 18 rounds i shot an 81 and 83. There has also been discussions around loss of distance. I’ve never been terribly long but I used to regularly drive it 280-290. If I tried and max out and hit it well I could get    310-320.  Before getting those distances with my driver I would lose 5-6 balls a round.  Now I’m able to get the same distances regularly but by staying with the limitations this swing sets for my body I can swing even harder when I try and go for it and have a much better chance of keeping it in bounds. Even had one go 350 this season which never happened before. I typically lose at most 1-2 drives a round now. I also used to scoop with my irons and now I have an actual negative attack angle which I gave up on ever achieving. So for me I love where my game is heading and hope to hit single digit handicap this year! I have two sons that are teenagers and one uses a conventional and one uses single plane. I don’t try and push anyone to do single plane as I don’t think it’s for everyone. However it has helped me a lot... now if I could just make a few putts 70’s are calling my name!

 

Are you more of a DeChambeau or Todd Graves swing?

[CB67]

These are all Moe emulated swings. 
 
First pic is Moe at impact, second pic is Greg Lavern, then Reed Howard ( Graves student ) then Todd Graves , then “single plane discovery  YouTube guy who switched to Todd’s swing after purchasing the book. Then a former caddie of Moe in picture 6 , then Chandler Rusk, a Graves student and master instructor for Graves golf. 
 

The staple of this swing in which they all have in common is the flexed lead knee and trail foot planted at impact. Some more rolled inward than others but never up on the toe. 
 

Moe once called his swing a hockey slap shot with a golf club. 

 

Edited January 18, 2021 by CB67

[tm3]

3 hours ago, CB67 said:

 

Moe once called his swing a hockey slap shot with a golf club. 

 

 

Well that sure fits with the discussion in another active thread stating that hockey players make better golfers than baseball players (in general).

[tm3]

On 1/17/2021 at 3:25 AM, Jumpman1231 said:

Just came across this thread looking up something else. Read all the comments and figured I’d share my own thoughts. I’ve always been good enough at golf but not as good as I want to be. In my mind I always thought if I found the time to practice I could really improve. Since high school I’ve played about the same level 90 average below good day above bad day. However I was always very inconsistent where I could go 40 then 50 to get that 90 ha! Finally this summer we decided we wanted to create an annual golf event to have 20 of our closest friends and family throughout the years gather for a 10 vs 10 Ryder cup style tournament. This gave me the motivation to start working on my game. So for the first time really ever i started to hit the range almost daily. Also started to play almost weekly. I also spent my nights watching golf videos and then would take that to try things out at the range. A couple months into this I started feeling like I was on the verge of consistency and becoming a mid 80’s guy which was my goal by our tourney time. Then out of no where I started shanking every iron from pw-4!! To the point I couldn’t hit the ball anymore and my own kids were laughing hysterically for good reason when we’d go to the range!  With the tournament coming up I tried everything I could find on YouTube and other places and nothing helped... then after seeing Bryson I stumbled upon Todd graves and now Norman single plane things. Out of desperation for any kind of fix I tried it out. The next day on the range I actually hit some irons properly. So I played with it a little more and saw more success. So I decided to go all in and watch all the videos and practice nothing but single plane in hopes I’d be back to what I used to be again. (as I’d began shooting over 100 for the first time that I can remember) by the time the tournament came I was able to shoot upper 80’s 5 of the 6 rounds and was happy with the progress. That was in august and now I’ve been using single plane since then. At the time of the tournament I was a 17 handicap and as of January I’m a 12.7. I’ve become much more consistent in my scoring and my miss hits are now still useable shots. My last two full 18 rounds i shot an 81 and 83. There has also been discussions around loss of distance. I’ve never been terribly long but I used to regularly drive it 280-290. If I tried and max out and hit it well I could get    310-320.  Before getting those distances with my driver I would lose 5-6 balls a round.  Now I’m able to get the same distances regularly but by staying with the limitations this swing sets for my body I can swing even harder when I try and go for it and have a much better chance of keeping it in bounds. Even had one go 350 this season which never happened before. I typically lose at most 1-2 drives a round now. I also used to scoop with my irons and now I have an actual negative attack angle which I gave up on ever achieving. So for me I love where my game is heading and hope to hit single digit handicap this year! I have two sons that are teenagers and one uses a conventional and one uses single plane. I don’t try and push anyone to do single plane as I don’t think it’s for everyone. However it has helped me a lot... now if I could just make a few putts 70’s are calling my name!

 

I'm curious what you used to teach yourself ......

[SwingBlues]

7 hours ago, CB67 said:

These are all Moe emulated swings. 
 
First pic is Moe at impact, second pic is Greg Lavern, then Chandler Rusk ( Graves student ) then Todd Graves , then “single plane discovery  YouTube guy who switched to Todd’s swing after purchasing the book. Then a former caddie of Moe in picture 6 , then Chandler Rusk, a Graves student and master instructor for Graves golf. 
 

The staple of this swing in which they all have in common is the flexed lead knee and trail foot planted at impact. Some more rolled inward than others but never up on the toe. 
 

Moe once called his swing a hockey slap shot with a golf club. 

 

 

Correction, 3rd picture is Reed Howard, a mini tour player taught by Todd. Everyone looks stable except the YouTube guy who looks like he's trying to snap off his right knee 😂

[grantc79]

I'm a single plane guy, happy to answer questions. 

[CB67]

39 minutes ago, SwingBlues said:

 

Correction, 3rd picture is Reed Howard, a mini tour player taught by Todd. Everyone looks stable except the YouTube guy who looks like he's trying to snap off his right knee 😂

 

Thanks haha I called Reed Chandler and put Chandler twice thanks for the clarification I fixed it  

[CB67]

4 hours ago, tm3 said:

 

I'm curious what you used to teach yourself ......

I’m not sure if he used it to learn or not but Todd Graves YouTube channel is loaded full of step by step instruction , drills and aids to learn this swing. It compliments the book nicely. 
 

Todd’s also been putting up on course vlogs since the summer showing this swing in action at Oak Tree National and he stripes it nicely. Great ball striker 

[SwingBlues]

6 hours ago, CB67 said:

I’m not sure if he used it to learn or not but Todd Graves YouTube channel is loaded full of step by step instruction , drills and aids to learn this swing. It compliments the book nicely. 
 

Todd’s also been putting up on course vlogs since the summer showing this swing in action at Oak Tree National and he stripes it nicely. Great ball striker 

 

 

I started with the book (Kindle version) as well as Todd's free YT videos. Great resources but the devil is in the details. I finally joined his Gold Membership for a couple of months end of 2020 to work out somethings. Inside his membership, he's got some new really indepth programs and workshops that are super, super detailed & useful especially his Dominos and Intence workshops.

 

Also, there isn't much coverage of his one plane short game that his brother, Tim usually handles. Again, the Gold membership cleared things up for me as well. You know it isn't too much $ if you join for a few months (mine was 2 months but I had to quit for Christmas $$$). Best thing about it is that you can send videos to their coaches to get feedback on your swing. I used that a couple of times but the range stations that I go to have got tall walls that is not ideal for the front on videos.

 

I'll go back to the membership probably about mid year as I got enough to do as it is right now. Right now I am experimenting with Todd's suggested grip sizes as well. Using that on my driver only but leaving my irons alone. Its interesting you don't find anything on the recommended grip sizing except in his magazine that they send to you when you join. Also the Graves grip looks interesting especially for correct and consistent hand placements but I am figuring out a way to do this using my PURE grips instead. While his grips intrigue me, I don't want to switch to them, i like my PUREs.

 

tip Get his ABT trainer as well, useful to sort out your stance width and ball position but BUY if when you join the Gold membership to save some $

Edited January 19, 2021 by SwingBlues

[CB67]

40 minutes ago, SwingBlues said:

 

 

I started with the book (Kindle version) as well as Todd's free YT videos. Great resources but the devil is in the details. I finally joined his Gold Membership for a couple of months end of 2020 to work out somethings. Inside his membership, he's got some new really indepth programs and workshops that are super, super detailed & useful especially his Dominos and Intence workshops.

 

Also, there isn't much coverage of his one plane short game that his brother, Tim usually handles. Again, the Gold membership cleared things up for me as well. You know it isn't too much $ if you join for a few months (mine was 2 months but I had to quit for Christmas $$$). Best thing about it is that you can send videos to their coaches to get feedback on your swing. I used that a couple of times but the range stations that I go to have got tall walls that is not ideal for the front on videos.

 

I'll go back to the membership probably about mid year as I got enough to do as it is right now. Right now I am experimenting with Todd's suggested grip sizes as well. Using that on my driver only but leaving my irons alone. Its interesting you don't find anything on the recommended grip sizing except in his magazine that they send to you when you join. Also the Graves grip looks interesting especially for correct and consistent hand placements but I am figuring out a way to do this using my PURE grips instead. While his grips intrigue me, I don't want to switch to them, i like my PUREs.

 

tip Get his ABT trainer as well, useful to sort out your stance width and ball position but BUY if when you join the Gold membership to save some $

Thanks for the info ! I’ve been using the book and videos along with his single plane trainer “Lefty” version. But I haven’t went in in a membership yet simply because I’ve been striping it with this swing after going 3 months without hitting a  ball and just learning the movements and drills and using my single plane trainer along with his free YouTube tutorials. 
 

I’ll likely go all in with the membership and what not as well eventually. I’m pretty excited about this swing and the whys and how’s are making so much sense now biomechanics wise. 
 

Graves golf has been awesome. 
 

 

[SwingBlues]

@CB67 nice! been mulling his single plane trainer. But I got a 5 foot PVC pipe that I am using instead. I figured that If it's good enough for Todd when he was with Moe, it should be good enough for me... 😜

 

ps get that ball on the 6ft back and 1 foot in to make sure at the top, that end of the trainer is pointed to it. It will solve A LOT of problems later on.

 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by SwingBlues