Has Anyone Ever Come Across A Moe Student Or Graves Golf Academy Pupil?

[ChipNRun]

In St. Louis area, we have a superb golf pro / instructor /clubsmith who was a multi-sport athlete growing up. As an adult, he and his wife engage in ballroom dancing.

 

I mention ballroom, as his solution for people who have poor weight transfer is to show them the spin motion at the top of a ballroom dance transition.

 

Another ability he had: he can demonstrate different types of golf swings and what needs to happen in each for the player to succeed.

 

He, for one, can demonstrate the Moe Norman swing. He says many self-taught golfers naturally drift toward the Moe address. And, he reports some of them can use the Moe method quite well with a little tweaking.

Edited January 29, 2021 by ChipNRun

[CB67]

5 hours ago, tm3 said:

I've got a question.  I've been watching the Graves videos and experimenting some with the setup.  Graves' reasoning for the mechanics sounds plausible.  I also looked at Junge's www site and found an hour long video of him going through a step by step process for his swing.  Junge's reasoning also sounds plausible, and a number of his points differ from Graves -- for example, Junge has the lead knee straightening at impact while Graves has it flexing.  Junge's swing is more like the conventional swing so it might be easier to pick up; OTOH, the fact that Graves' swing is so different may be its strength.

 

Obviously I'm debating which one to try to go farther with.  Any thoughts?

I fiddled with Junges style earlier on but the only thing different in my swing was the position of the arms being further away. It didn’t do a thing for my early extension.
 

The reason the Graves / Moe style was a godsend for me was because the action of bracing into that flexed lead knee and keeping that rear foot planted and rolled slightly inward completely eliminated any sign of early extension. And on camera now instead of my lead leg straightening , my rear foot coming up , and my belt buckle goat humping out toward the ball and my head moving upward, I now maintain my tush line and my head actually dips slightly down through impact like Moes did. 
 

The reason this swing worked so well for

me was because I just couldn’t make that proper move with the traditional swing. My entire life I could not beat early extension. 
 

The Malaska video helped with irons , but I still couldn’t completely rid it with my longer clubs or driver. It improved it from where I was , but it didn’t eliminate my struggle 100%. 
 

Bracing into the flexed lead knee and rolling having that rear foot planted (keeps everything on line ) as Moe said and that’s what I feel in my swing. 
 

Maintaining my tilt / side bend , stepping into that flexed lead knee and rolling slightly inward on the rear foot without having that toe lift simply feels like such a repeatable , simple move after the work I put in drilling.  Once I do that , the hands , arms and shoulders just sling through without thought. 
 

The best “feel” I can describe is a slap shot  down the line as opposed to a rotational / twisting motion. 
 

I can’t keep anything online with the Junge style swing because as soon as I allow my lead leg to straighten and my trail foot to come up, my early extension / goat humping takes over again. 
 

The deeper I get into this swing the more I understand why Moe did what he did. 
 

When I began the transition from the traditional swing this move felt like the

most foreign feeling I’d ever experienced.
 

But now just trying to swing traditionally again to compare ,  all I think is, “Way too many moving parts”. 
 

Nothing in this game is quick fix. Unlearning for me was just as , if not more important than learning. 
 

 

 

[CB67]

4 hours ago, SwingBlues said:

 

 

So I looked at Junge and I looked at Todd and I chose Todd. #1 Todd is the closest to Moe. Look at Moe, he's not the most athletic guy in the world but he has STABILITY at impact he figured out how to move his body and he hits it HARD and pure. As Todd says, if Moe can do it, so can I. As did Todd. Looks like @CB67 as well (sorry to drop your name).

 

 

 

 

Drop my name anytime my friend! I always enjoy and appreciate the discussion! 

[tm3]

Thanks for the discussion!  Sounds like the Graves swing is the way to go over Junge.  For completeness I'm going to have to take a look at Venetos due to Nels55's comments.

 

Years ago I was doing a drill that I picked up somewhere that basically involved keeping the feet planted while doing kind of an L to L swing.  I found that after a while I was hitting the ball almost as far as with a full swing but with much better accuracy.  The problem was that when I would go to play and try to do a full turn through I was tending to hold back or stutter or something -- the result was my full playing swing was getting even worse, so I quit doing the drill.  In retrospect maybe I would have been better off just using the drill swing all the time!  Anyway the feet planted, less motion, more stability, more accuracy reminds me of the Graves swing.

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, tm3 said:

Thanks for the discussion!  Sounds like the Graves swing is the way to go over Junge.  For completeness I'm going to have to take a look at Venetos due to Nels55's comments.

 

Years ago I was doing a drill that I picked up somewhere that basically involved keeping the feet planted while doing kind of an L to L swing.  I found that after a while I was hitting the ball almost as far as with a full swing but with much better accuracy.  The problem was that when I would go to play and try to do a full turn through I was tending to hold back or stutter or something -- the result was my full playing swing was getting even worse, so I quit doing the drill.  In retrospect maybe I would have been better off just using the drill swing all the time!  Anyway the feet planted, less motion, more stability, more accuracy reminds me of the Graves swing.

I contend that Moe made a conventional pro swing with a bit of a different setup.  The weight shift and sequencing are all excellent and he got to impact with his hips and shoulders open just like any tour pro.  Trying to learn his swing I had the same problems that I had with learning a conventional swing.  I don't tend to sequence correctly and I am constantly getting some movement wrong.  LOL Graves does have a lot of training devices and videos for teaching such a simple swing... 

 

Anyway I find that staying still is a lot easier then trying to sequence everything correctly which is why I am intrigued by Venetos' ideas.  I tend to hit the ball farther with the sort of arm swing that Venetos teaches so for me so far anyway it is all good. ymmv.

[tm3]

1 hour ago, Nels55 said:

Anyway I find that staying still is a lot easier then trying to sequence everything correctly which is why I am intrigued by Venetos' ideas.  I tend to hit the ball farther with the sort of arm swing that Venetos teaches so for me so far anyway it is all good. ymmv.

 

So I checked out Venetos and I really like the guy -- what a character, with the black tshirts and Chuck Taylors, hitting off a mat in the desert (and knocking over his shag bag a couple of times!), and I agree that his concepts are intriguing.  I don't like though that most of the content of the videos that I watched were him encouraging subscribing to his www site, with little actual instruction -- I think it would be better if he would give enough to get a good taste of the system with the option of subscribing if you like it (like the Graves model).  Anyway, very interesting.

[Nels55]

4 hours ago, tm3 said:

 

So I checked out Venetos and I really like the guy -- what a character, with the black tshirts and Chuck Taylors, hitting off a mat in the desert (and knocking over his shag bag a couple of times!), and I agree that his concepts are intriguing.  I don't like though that most of the content of the videos that I watched were him encouraging subscribing to his www site, with little actual instruction -- I think it would be better if he would give enough to get a good taste of the system with the option of subscribing if you like it (like the Graves model).  Anyway, very interesting.

I have not subscribed though I know several golfers who have.  He does have a ton of videos and I believe that he gives away most of his instruction if you spend enough time looking at his videos.  LOL at least he is not selling a lot of training devices and so on. 

[tm3]

I just happened across this.  I remember it from its original Golf Digest publication.  Great read.

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-story-of-moe-norman-golfs-troubled-genius

[tm3]

Here is a very interesting tidbit (full article at http://failuremag.com/article/moe-norman) -- I put in the bold for emphasis as I had never heard of this connection:

 

Strangely, Norman has had more impact on the game in the last five years than when he was playing professionally. His clinics have played a role in converting thousands of golfers to Natural Golf and convinced many others to learn the game using the method’s simpler mechanics. He even has several disciples, including Natural Golf pro Todd Graves (who he has dubbed “Little Moe”), as well as Shawn Clement, who is competing on the Canadian PGA Tour playing left-handed and right-handed—even numbered clubs left-handed, odd numbered clubs right-handed. 

[SwingBlues]

2 hours ago, tm3 said:

Here is a very interesting tidbit (full article at http://failuremag.com/article/moe-norman) -- I put in the bold for emphasis as I had never heard of this connection:

 

Strangely, Norman has had more impact on the game in the last five years than when he was playing professionally. His clinics have played a role in converting thousands of golfers to Natural Golf and convinced many others to learn the game using the method’s simpler mechanics. He even has several disciples, including Natural Golf pro Todd Graves (who he has dubbed “Little Moe”), as well as Shawn Clement, who is competing on the Canadian PGA Tour playing left-handed and right-handed—even numbered clubs left-handed, odd numbered clubs right-handed. 

 

Interesting indeed. I was subscribed to Clements for a while about 2 years ago. What he teaches is not single plane, the only thing remotely close is he preaches a braced left leg if I recall correctly. He's a great teacher though and I learnt a lot studying his style & method including chipping.

[nlk10010]

On 1/30/2021 at 12:49 PM, Nels55 said:

-snip-

 

Anyway I find that staying still is a lot easier then trying to sequence everything correctly which is why I am intrigued by Venetos' ideas.  I tend to hit the ball farther with the sort of arm swing that Venetos teaches so for me so far anyway it is all good. ymmv.

 

It's amazing how often Venetos has been excoriated on this forum for pandering to people who want to do things "the easy way" (my characterization). Granted I don't like that he often cuts short questions posted to his YT videos with "subscribe to my site" types of answers, and he did tend to the nasty in one of his brief appearances on these Boards. But his approach of presetting the impact position, keeping the swing simpler, etc. is only now becoming popular with more conventional instructors who at least acknowledge that it has some merit.

 

If you want a swing with less motion look at Larry Rinker, his stance (ha ha) is that the golf swing is basically a hands-arms swing and that many problems come from moving TOO far forward. He wants you to have the feeling of keeping your back to the target as long as possible and swinging around your body, letting the arms pull the body around (like Jim Hardy's LOP).

Edited February 1, 2021 by nlk10010

[tm3]

39 minutes ago, nlk10010 said:

 

 

If you want a swing with less motion look at Larry Rinker, his stance (ha ha) is that the golf swing is basically a hands-arms swing and that many problems come from moving TOO much forward. He wants you to have the feeling of keeping your back to the target as long as possible and swinging around your body, letting the arms pull the body around (like Jim Hardy's LOP).

 

Both Jim Flick and Manuel de la Torre advocated that the swing was primarily with the arms with the body playing a supporting role, and I've seen accomplished golfers hit the ball pretty far while sitting in a chair or on their knees which takes a lot of body/leg action out, so I think that Rinker is on to something.

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, nlk10010 said:

 

It's amazing how often Venetos has been excoriated on this forum for pandering to people who want to do things "the easy way" (my characterization). Granted I don't like that he often cuts short questions posted to his YT videos with "subscribe to my site" types of answers, and he did tend to the nasty in one of his brief appearances on these Boards. But his approach of presetting the impact position, keeping the swing simpler, etc. is only now becoming popular with more conventional instructors who at least acknowledge that it has some merit.

 

If you want a swing with less motion look at Larry Rinker, his stance (ha ha) is that the golf swing is basically a hands-arms swing and that many problems come from moving TOO far forward. He wants you to have the feeling of keeping your back to the target as long as possible and swinging around your body, letting the arms pull the body around (like Jim Hardy's LOP).

Rinker teaches the Wright Balance system and they teach distinctly different swings depending on how a student physically measures out.  You mentioned the upper core swing but they also teach mid and lower core swings which are very different from the upper core swing.  Tour pros mostly learn and use the lower core body driven swing.  Rinker claims that as an upper core player trying to learn the lower core swing hurt his playing career.  On the other hand Venetos believes that there is only one proper way to swing which is what he teaches.  If Wright is right then mid core and lower core players are going to struggle with the Venetos method.  

 

Another method that is similar to Venetos the Minimalist Golf Swing by Karin Kanwar who is educated in bio mechanics and claims to have come up with a correct way to swing a golf club.  She has presented papers to the golf science community for peer review which is more then most method purveyors have done... 

[nlk10010]

Yes, Nels55, you are absolutely correct. The swing I was referring to was the "upper body" one, Rinker claims the vast majority of golfers Wright tests are "upper body" swingers. He doesn't really have anything on the other core swings on his YT channel, at least AFAIK. I even seem to recall Monte saying some nice things about Wright and his system, although I'm not saying he subscribes to Rinker's theories.

 

And yes, certainly, Venetos' mantra is "stillness", so it still ends up being an arm-driven swing. Rinker's upper-core is arms turn the body, Venetos' is arms swing, body stays where it is. 🙂

Edited February 2, 2021 by nlk10010

[Nels55]

15 minutes ago, nlk10010 said:

Yes, Nels55, you are absolutely correct. The swing I was referring to was the "upper body" one, Rinker claims the vast majority of golfers Wright tests are "upper body" swingers. He doesn't really have anything on the other core swings on his YT channel, at least AFAIK. I even seem to recall Monte saying some nice things about Wright and his system, although I'm not saying he subscribes to Rinker's swing.

 

And yes, certainly, Venetos mantra is "stillness", so it still ends up being an arm-driven swing. Rinker's upper-core is arms turn the body, Venetos' is arms swing, body stays where it is. 🙂

I have seen some lower core stuff from Rinker and his sister is a mid core player.  He talked about this a fair amount on his radio show that I listened to a few times on PGA Tour radio.  He has worked with Dr. Wright and credits Wright Balance for his knowledge of the core methods.

 

Some things that Venetos says don't make sense to me like the lead shoulder being a fixed point.  His lead shoulder moves a fair amount in his swing.  I don't get that one in a literal sense but I guess that it is more of a feeling or something.  Jim does seem rather dogmatic about his method which is not unusual for method teachers. 

 

LOL I guess we could talk about Jack Kuykendal and his myriad of scientific arm swing methods!  Jack is the guy who for the most part made Moe Norman famous so I guess that ties this diversion back in to the original purpose of the thread a little bit anyway... 

[tm3]

17 hours ago, Nels55 said:

 

 

LOL I guess we could talk about Jack Kuykendal and his myriad of scientific arm swing methods!  Jack is the guy who for the most part made Moe Norman famous so I guess that ties this diversion back in to the original purpose of the thread a little bit anyway... 

 

Jack Kuykendal ...... oh boy.  Claimed that he dedicated himself to the traditional swing for 2 years and went from a 12hcp to a 14hcp, then "discovered" the Natural Golf swing and went to scratch in 3 months.

 

I just googled the old boy and see that he has a www presence and is selling some kind of swing trainer made out of PVC.  I guess "lever power golf" never took off for him.

[CB67]

My post impact position with the Graves single plane swing. 
 

Hitting baby cuts all day long. It took me 3 months to be able to hit this position naturally. I couldn’t stop the trail heel from coming up for the life of me. Now I can’t lift it if I try. 
 
At impact my trail hand feels way below my lead hand. If my hands were 10-2 on a steering wheel , at impact my left hand feels like it’s at 7 and my right hand is at 1 ( left handed ) if right handed my hands would feel like right hand 5 left hand 11 at impact.   
 

I feel like my hands don’t cross over until well after impact up near my lead ear. ( obviously a feel and not what’s actually happening ) I feel like I can’t hook the ball if I try which is nice because it allows me to play my miss which is a slight push / over fade. 
 

I smoked this ball with a baby cut. 
 

Still work to go but I’m getting closer to Moe’s positions. 

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by CB67

[SwingBlues]

So poignant, so true... enjoy guys👍

 

 

[MrHateCoffee]

Dang, yall got me interesting in trying the single plane swing now.  🤔

[SwingBlues]

On 2/21/2021 at 5:42 PM, MrHateCoffee said:

Dang, yall got me interesting in trying the single plane swing now.  🤔

 

C'mon, MrHateCoffee, you still have to release the ball like in PPGS otherwise even SPS will go right 😋

 

 

 

Ok, So I'll throw this in here. It's another Todd video addressing and answering some pretty common questions most single planers have. Within it is a treasure throve of details that will help you find the answer to your issues. Mine was the hook with the driver and the answer was SO SUBTLE and so small.

 

Enjoy guys...

 

[MrHateCoffee]

18 hours ago, SwingBlues said:

C'mon, MrHateCoffee, you still have to release the ball like in PPGS otherwise even SPS will go right 😋

 

 

Hey if you switched then there must be a good reason right?

[SwingBlues]

On 2/23/2021 at 1:15 PM, MrHateCoffee said:

 

Hey if you switched then there must be a good reason right?

 

Got to have a good reason to switch since that reason is going to drive & motivate you. Otherwise, you're half hesitant and you will fail as this One Plane swing is totally different and not conducive to a "hybrid" or mix or match. At least not with the Todd Graves/Moe Norman. The Kirk Junge, you may somewhat get away with it as he's less rigid to Todd/Moe. Seriously think about it.

 

PPGS is great & you are close once you work and solve the release. How's that going by the way, not heard back from ya?

[SEP1006]

SwingBlues - you are spot on when you say "One Plane swing is totally different and not conducive to a "hybrid" or mix or match. At least not with the Todd Graves/Moe Norman. The Kirk Junge, you may somewhat get away with it as he's less rigid to Todd/Moe. Seriously think about it."

 

I have posted earlier on this thread and others I converted from the DeChambeau swing to the Graves method. I seriously considered Junges method as well but to me there are too many variances. This seems like it would lead to inconsistencies and harder to diagnose what was going wrong when your swing was off.

 

I have pretty much gotten down the Graves method and have been VERY CONSISTENT lately with no blow-up holes. The only piece I struggled with was staying centered over the bent lead knee during the downswing. I have 90% gotten this down and the swing is really dependable now.

 

 

 

[MrHateCoffee]

11 hours ago, SwingBlues said:

PPGS is great & you are close once you work and solve the release. How's that going by the way, not heard back from ya?

I honestly went back to my traditional rotational swing. I went through a period where I just couldn’t get the PPGS swing to be consistent AT ALL. It also sucks when there isn’t a local pro who teaches the method to help fine tune the things I’m not doing right.   

[SwingBlues]

4 minutes ago, MrHateCoffee said:

I honestly went back to my traditional rotational swing. I went through a period where I just couldn’t get the PPGS swing to be consistent AT ALL. It also sucks when there isn’t a local pro who teaches the method to help fine tune the things I’m not doing right.   

 

Have you asked their customer service if they have a certified pro in your area? If you bought the program, you should have an account with them.

 

As well, you have the same issue with the Graves One Plane swing. There is no local pro either but if you sign up with the membership program, they do give you online access to send videos and feedback. Unless you pay for one of their expensive one or multi-day schools, there isn't hands on (unless you are in OK or close to their base schools).

 

Jus sayin'

Edited February 25, 2021 by SwingBlues

[Iceman_dmrk]

I picked up golf during the pandemic, and luckily I found out about Moe’s swing before I built a conventional swing. I’ve been at it for about 4 months through graves YouTube and a couple of their books and I’m really happy with my ball striking. I quit baseball to join the golf team for my senior year. My favorite part about the swing is how simple it is, 80% of it is getting your body position correct at address and the other portion is just getting to the flexed knee in transition. This is my 6 iron swing. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9gLJ_yFST0

 

p.s. Reed Howard is pro who uses the swing, he’s a student of Todd Graves and he’s got a great YouTube channel.

[SwingBlues]

Welcome @Iceman_dmrk to GolfWRX, glad your 1st post is here 👍 Looks like you and @CB67 got the lefty side nice covered.

 

Nice swing by the way and if you got any Qs, there's plenty of stealth SP Grave followers here to help ya 😊

[SwingBlues]

 

Moe vs the pro..

 

 

I remember my 2 plane swing was exactly like JT with the difference in that I had less spine curvature and as a result I had an extremely steep plane at impact. I had a really good LPGA pro and she said I was on my feet ala Laura Davis. Mind you I had pretty good timing so I was still a single digit cap.

 

Now, I understood WHY my body did that. No one ever explained this to me until I found the Todd Graves/Moe Norman back in June 2020.

 

Funny enough, back in the days, I recall this vividly, my best ball striking was when I "rolled" my trail foot and keeping it rolled as long as possible. Never understood why. Till now.

 

 

[SEP1006]

On 2/25/2021 at 8:14 AM, SEP1006 said:

SwingBlues - you are spot on when you say "One Plane swing is totally different and not conducive to a "hybrid" or mix or match. At least not with the Todd Graves/Moe Norman. The Kirk Junge, you may somewhat get away with it as he's less rigid to Todd/Moe. Seriously think about it."

 

I have posted earlier on this thread and others I converted from the DeChambeau swing to the Graves method. I seriously considered Junges method as well but to me there are too many variances. This seems like it would lead to inconsistencies and harder to diagnose what was going wrong when your swing was off.

 

I have pretty much gotten down the Graves method and have been VERY CONSISTENT lately with no blow-up holes. The only piece I struggled with was staying centered over the bent lead knee during the downswing. I have 90% gotten this down and the swing is really dependable now.

 

 

 

 

One thing I forgot to add to this. Graves teaches to basically set up with the "heel side" of the club at the ball and the clubhead anywhere from 4" to 12" behind the ball to start the backswing on the right path. This is one part I can't get down for whatever reason. Despite multiple efforts I ALWAYS hit it FAT.

 

I set up with the "toe side" of the club at the ball just barely even with it. Then on the downswing I obviously reach to make contact and follow through staying centered over my lead knee. My ball contact is just toe side of center and I am very consistent with it. Nice compression sound and divots in front of the ball on my iron shots.

 

 

[tm3]

On 3/2/2021 at 5:34 PM, Iceman_dmrk said:

p.s. Reed Howard is pro who uses the swing, he’s a student of Todd Graves and he’s got a great YouTube channel.

 

Thanks for posting about Reed Howard.  Very interesting to watch, and one video is a side by side with Moe and boy they sure look alike to me!

 

Which brings me back to a recurring question -- is the swing of "old Moe" the same swing used by "young Moe?"  I've seen it argued that no, Moe swung conventionally as a younger player and only changed as he got older (and fatter).  I tend to doubt that theory and Reed Howard's experience seems to argue against it.