Driver Lie Angle

[Pomps]

Hello friends...for the last couple of years I've been playing shorter drivers, about 44.5"...shorter than stock anyway. As someone who has always fought a hook, I have also played drivers with flatter lie angles to fight said hook such as callaway sub zeros. The ball flight now is a left to ride fade but sometimes even too left to right and I have a lot of trouble turning it over. It finally dawned on my that if my Mavrik SZ is 56* lie angle, and some rules of thumb are if you shorter by 0.5" you flatten lie angle by 1*, then if I play a driver 1" short of mavrik standard 45.75", that would make the lie angle about 54*. Could that be the reason for such difficulty turning it over or would the impact on lie angle be not that relevant with driver as compared to irons?

[Adam C]

A 10 degree driver with a 4 degree off lie angle results in about a 1/4 degree face angle change, so you are talking about very small amounts that should not usually result in much difference. If you are already cutting the ball, it certainly won't counter that flight, but it shouldn't make it noticeably worse.

[swgolf12]

But if he has to manipulate the club face/hand position etc to make the club appear to be neutral wouldn't that make things noticeably worse because it's not going to be maintained through the swing?

[Adam C]

This is purely a measurement of the club taken at different lie angle caused by the golfer at impact and comparing them. So if he swings the club and hits the ball with the toe 4 degrees lower than the heel, the face angle result from that "flat" lie angle would be .25 degrees open assuming the golfer has what would be squared the face at impact.

[swgolf12]

Makes sense, so why do tour guys even care about lie angle on woods if it doesn't make much of a difference?

[Adam C]

It still makes some difference and obviously if you stretch out the distance to over 300yds, even that small change will grow to a larger amount. Offline would be a little under 1.5 yards offline and then factor spin into that and you might be 5-10yrds off total. Of course this again assumes the golfer is delivering the club straight and square to path. It's not a big amount but if you play for big money you probably want to get it right/where you want for your desired ball flight. Again though, this is with 4 degrees off which is pretty big, 1 or 2 is pretty trivial even at those longer distances.

[SAM_PGA]

@Adam C Lie angle with a driver has no bearing with shaft length because the club is not coming in contact with the ground. If you have a 46" driver with a 56* lie and a 44" driver with a 56* lie, the lie is still the same. Lie angles with drivers will contribute to how the club head is released, but more importantly how the lie angle of the club reacts with the axis of the shaft... So, regardless of length a 56* lie angle is a 56* lie angle. The more the CG of the club is in plane with the shaft during the golf swing (flatter lie angle) the slower the clubhead will want to release. The more the CG of the clubhead is positioned further away from the shaft (steeper lie angle) the faster the clubhead will want to release.

[Adam C]

Not sure why you quoted me on this. I never said anything about shaft length. I am only talking about what happens to the face angle in relation to lie angle. Never talked about shaft length as it is not important in this discussion since we don't know if it causes this specific golfer to flatten out. I also said nothing about specific lie angles be it 56 or 60 or whatever. I said if your lie angle was off (ie not parallel to the ground at impact), these would be the results based on the assumptions I put forth.

 

[dmbrill719]

@sam_pga - I don't see any way how that can be true. I think it's understood and accepted that lie angle for a driver has less of an impact on ball flight than lie on an iron. But let's just use a crazy example of a 50" driver versus a 40" driver with the same lie angle. If I'm holding a 50" driver, there is no doubt that toe will be way up in the air compared to a 40" driver. How is that not the same, but on a smaller scale, between a 46" driver and a 44" driver?

[enfuego]

I am very sensitive to lie angle on all my clubs, I'm sure I have some swing flaws that exaggerate the sensitivity though and some of it is mental. In my driver I notice it a little even though it is teed up but where it really kills me is my fairway woods and long irons. I think most people say when you start adding loft it has less impact.

As a medium tall 6'2'' golfer I play half inch over in irons and 2 up with 2.5 up in the 4-6. My first fairway wood I loved was an M2 with a 60* lie angle. I tried to switch to a EFSZ in the upright setting which only gets up to 57 or 58 and immediately saw issues.

For Driver I had success with an M2 as well, now in a g410+ that looks pretty upright and seems to keep me straight.

[lefty1978]

I tend to gravitate towards drivers with flatter lie angles. Callaway Rouge sz is my favorite at address.

[Adam C]

Flip the loft comment. The more loft on the club, the greater the lie angle will affect the face angle. A 2 degree off lie on a wedge will cause a larger face angle change than that same 2 degrees on a 7 iron. It does balance out some what however when you factor the spin axis back in.

[coops]

"rules of thumb are if you shorter by 0.5" you flatten lie angle by 1*..." - wrong way round.

As your clubs get longer the ideal (for you) lie angle gets flatter. That's why your driver is flatter than your 3 wood which is flatter than your 6 iron - so as you go to the shorter clubs like 9 iron they naturally have a higher lie angle.

 

Obviously, if you shorten or lengthen a driver it doesn't change the actual lie angle on the club - that's a physical measurement that has to be bent to suit. So if your current 9 iron lie angle is just right, and you then decided to make it 1" longer, then you would very probably find you need to bend the lie angle flatter a bit.

 

[Stuart_G]

Technically speaking, the lie angle being off does not change the face angle, it tilts the d-plane left or right which is a completely different axis of rotation of the head. Now the end effect is very similar so not that bad of an analogy, but it's not exactly the same thing.

And loft only plays a minor role in how far offline the results will end up. Generally speaking, a player with a 100 mph driver club speed will generally see the ball travel offline about 2-3 yards for each degree the lie angle is off. And that range is good for all clubs in the set. The driver loft doesn't make it less sensitive than any other club in the set. Typically no more than a 1/2 yard different than any other club in the set.If you have more sensitivity to lie angle with the irons than you do with the driver, there are several possibilities but my first guess is that it's related to how the lie angle of the club effects your set-up at address. Irons have much less curvature on the sole and the ball is much closer and gives a different visual perspective than it does in the driver. So the lie angle being off at address with the irons is much more noticeable than with the driver. Now that's not saying that the lie angle relative to the club position at address is really what people should pay attention to, it's not. The only thing that matters is what happens at impact. But that doesn't stop a lot of people from doing it anyways. Also the long stock driver lengths and tendencies for the stock driver lie angles to be more upright than most people need have 'trained' us over time to accept that it's ok for the lie angle to be off with the driver.

 

 

[Adam C]

Not sure what we should be calling it if we don't refer to the change of face direction as face angle? Isn't that the definition of it? Also the loft plays a large roll in the equation of incorrect lie angle. Yes the total distance offline may be relatively consistent across the set but we should not judge the "miss" against the other clubs in the set. The miss should be judged against the expected accuracy of that particular club and that particular distance. A 10 yard miss with a SW is very different from a 10 yard miss with a 4 iron.

[Howard_Jones]

In my book its called "tilt of loft plane"....the ball has back spin on a axis that 90* vs the loft plane, so when we tilt the loft plane (lie angle up or down), its cause a tilt on the spin axis.

This illustration shows it very good since its marked with a upside down T who makes that 90* angle. the ball spins on

 

[Stuart_G]

Yes, "Tilted D-plane" is probably the most accurate way to describe it. Other than that just call it what it is, the face is either too upright or too flat.

And the distance off-line is the only thing that really maters. How each person may want to convert that to some other representation of accuracy is largely subjective. But regardless of how anyone wants to perceive accuracy, it's always has to start with the actual distance error.

[SAM_PGA]

That's my bad... meant to tag the OP.

[SAM_PGA]

I never said the lie angle of the driver has an effect on ball flight... the lie of the driver head in relation to the shaft has an effect on the dynamic release of the club through impact. Thats why game improvement drivers are usually more upright than a "tour/players" driver... the game improvement driver allows a player that needs help releasing the clubhead due to it being more upright.

[denkea]

Sam ~~~ When you say "release the club head" are you refering to the kick velocity or forward bend of the shaft at impact?

[SAM_PGA]

Sorry I should have been more specific. I refer to the ability to get the clubhead back to the ball at the desired face angle to path. "Ability" meaning you "have to work hard to return the face at impact" or otherwise. That's all :)

[Howard_Jones]

Are you able to explain the tech behind this? the statement leaves more questions than answers, or is this just a observation?

Are we talking THE SAME CLUB where we can alter Lie angle up or down like we can on many drivers today?

We know that head MOI itself makes a difference to face closing speed or the needed power to close up, (RCOG), but that MOI dont change with lie angle changes, but we might stretch C-Dim when we go flat (MOI around the shaft axis, but i have not done the numbers), and going flat on the same club also moves SW value higher.

So lie angle alone dont explains this, it has the be the effect of the lie angle change to another parameter....

[SAM_PGA]

I can only explain my experiences from personal play (Qfy'd for 5 Korn Ferry and 3 PGA Tour events), club fittings and teaching as a Golf Professional for 18 years, and what has been told to me by the most knowledgeable techs on the PGA Tour. Additionally we also know that everything that we ever do to change the static and dynamic relationships of the club is player specific. What works for one person may not work for another... "There is not just one golf swing, but thousands. However everyone has their ONE golf swing that is most efficient".

As explained to me the "tech" behind it is from multiple fitters at Titleist Performance Institute telling me about it at Oceanside CA (both being fit there and spending time with them). Most specifically for drivers, as the shaft is loaded and released, dynamically the COG of the clubhead wants to align itself with the axis of the shaft creating the Toe Down Effect or "shaft droop". To think... "Why are "tour" drivers more flat in their lie angle, while "game improvement" drivers are much more upright?" It's commonly known that tour drivers are "anti left" and game improvement drivers are easier to square/release.

UPRIGHT LIE ANGLE/INCREASED SHAFT DROOP - The more the COG has to travel to align with the shaft through the release, the faster the clubhead wants to return to desired face/path relationship (Game Improvement Drivers.)

FLATTER LIE ANGLE/DECREASED SHAFT DROOP - The less the COG of the clubhead has to travel to align with the shaft axis, the slower the clubhead wants to return to the desired face/path relationship (Flatter Tour Drivers).

Titleist may be one of the few drivers where the lie can be adjusted independently and I can set up on B1 ( .75º flat) and A2 (1.5º up) and see massive changes in ball flight. I don't have much experience with other company's fitting sleeves but I'm sure there's others. Several manufacturers' loft/lie are adjusted together, IE., adjusting to higher loft also increase lie and vice versa.

[Howard_Jones]

hmmm, the toe drop axis has not much to do with face closing, but it is correct that COG will align as strait down from our hands as possible and cause shaft bending, but typical Game improvement heads has a COG as far back from the face as possible, so on one side, MOI goes UP and on the other side, face closing actually get some help. This illustration thats "over done" shows this. Typical GI drivers also has a closed face angle at address to help the player to close up in time, while typical tour drivers has a open face angle.

The further back from the shaft center we find RCOG, the more forward will the head force itself, and by that close up face angle, so this works just like offset does, where RCOG by design is moved back from the shaft center so it forces itself more forward and close up face angle. (if COG was in level with the shaft at address, the shaft would not bend forward at all.)

The RED line is the line strait down from our hands to COG, (we will never find a head with RCOG as far back as this, but its made to show the difference for face angle, or that it cause the face angle to close more than on a head where RCOG is more forward)

I still look at a higher lie angle as a "anti slice help" for higher HDCP players, i cant see the relation with face closure speed or help.

 

 

[Stuart_G]

@SAM_PGA said to think... "Why are "tour" drivers more flat in their lie angle, while "game improvement" drivers are much more upright?" It's commonly known that tour drivers are "anti left" and game improvement drivers are easier to square/release.
Because the tilted d-plan from the more upright lie angle adds a little bit of draw bias.

[Howard_Jones]

Thats my understanding too, and Tour players fear the left side, so they play drivers with a open face angle and flat lie, while higher HDCP players has slice as the most common problem, so they play closed face angle and upright to prevent the right side....

 

[Stuart_G]

And FWIW, I agree with you that I also can't see any valid relationship between the lie angle and any significant change in face closure rate or ability. If anything, a flatter lie angle means a lower MOI about the shaft axis - but that difference is going to be pretty trivial. The concept of "how far the COG has to travel to align with the shaft" just isn't a valid or accurate way to describe the dynamics of what's happening in the release and through impact.

[Howard_Jones]

I think you turned them upside down, Flatter Lie, longer distance from the shaft to COG = higher MOI around the shaft axis, plus higher SW value from a longer distance from butt to COG

But for MOi around the shaft axis...205 grams on a 46 mm long arm we might be able to stretch by 2 mm from highest to lowest Lie angle setting...thats so trivial it dont even interest me to do the math, but here is a illustration of that. If we measure "the wrong way" (Yellow line), we will be able to measure a difference to the Rod length, and by that see a different MOI value, while the correct way to measure (BLUE) gives a difference so small, i had to move the RED center line of the shaft outside of the shaft walls to be able to see any difference, so the change of MOI around the shaft axis is very trivial and want make a difference, while a Lie angle change of 4* (on the same club) who moves SW by more that one point can cause "all sorts of things", maybe even for face closing, but we cant even predict in what direction.

[SAM_PGA]

There's a lot of physics and measured dynamics going on that's for sure. And you both know @Howard_Jones @Stuart_G that I respect your knowledge and have reached out to both of you about various topics. The science behind everything is WHY this website exists! I just know a few things from my experience :P
Cheers fellas! Hope everyone is safe and sound :)

[Howard_Jones]

I dont know swing tech as good as i should, and though it could be something here i was not aware of and have not noticed myself, and drivers the way they are now with adjustable hosels was NOT for sale in my shop at all, so those i saw was mostly Titleist drivers the customers insisted to keep playing, and that means adjustable lie angles on drivers was really outside of what i worked with. Thats why i asked additional questions about it. i do know a few things about Golf clubs, but far from everything, and now im both rusty and have forgotten a lot and im also "out dated" on "the latest stuff out there", but dont care about keeping myself updated like it once was needed to be.

Cheers Sam!