Driver Lie Angle

[Stuart_G]

@Howard_Jones said I think you turned them upside down, Flatter Lie, longer distance from the shaft to COG = higher MOI around the shaft axis, plus higher SW value from a longer distance from butt to COG
No, pretty sure I didn't. But more important is the fact that I agree it's trivial regardless. So it's probably not worth the effort to put together a drawing showing what I mean. Best I can tell from your drawing is that you have rotated the shaft axis at the wrong point. You should rotate the shaft axis at the point where the bend would take place in a bendable hosel, not at the ground.

[Rbsiedsc]

So to get things straight, it doesn't really matter? I game a EFSZ with a lie angle of 56*. If i were to switch to a PXG 0211 driver (60* lie angle) I won't see much difference? My irons are always 2-3* upright so I figure a more upright driver should help me?

[Cwebb]

2 hours ago, Rbsiedsc said:

So to get things straight, it doesn't really matter? I game a EFSZ with a lie angle of 56*. If i were to switch to a PXG 0211 driver (60* lie angle) I won't see much difference? My irons are always 2-3* upright so I figure a more upright driver should help me?

 

It matters for some.  Just depends on the player and where your current ball flight it is.  For example, if someone already plays a draw with their driver, increasing the lie angle by a few degrees could be enough to turn that draw into a bigger draw that is no longer beneficial or desired.

 

On the other hand, if someone hits the driver with little curve, a few degrees difference may not do anything 'significant' to the flight and dispersion pattern.

 

and for others, they simply don't want to look at a 60* lie angle driver at address, because the toe being way up is distracting.  Visual ques do matter for a lot of players

[Stuart_G]

3 hours ago, Rbsiedsc said:

My irons are always 2-3* upright so I figure a more upright driver should help me?

 

You can't judge a need for a relative change in lie angle for the woods and drivers based on what you might need for the irons.  First of all the driver is a much flatter swing so changes in posture at impact will have a smaller relative effect on the lie angle.  Second (and much more importantly) the 'standard' for lie angle in drivers varies a lot with drivers.  Many OEM's have the base lie angle a lot more upright that what would normally be typical for it's length already to help give a bit of a draw bias.

 

Another reason not to worry too much is that drivers and woods aren't bendable like irons so you're pretty limited as to what you can do with them.  If it has an adjustable hosel, go ahead and play with the lie angle setting and see what happens.  But if it doesn't, don't worry about it.

[JCray33]

Just purchased a Rogue Subzero because my miss has always been a pull draw and I have always played 58, 59 lie angle drivers so pumped to try a 56 lie angle driver! 

[LowAndLeft32]

On 5/9/2020 at 4:04 AM, Stuart_G said:

Technically speaking, the lie angle being off does not change the face angle, it tilts the d-plane left or right which is a completely different axis of rotation of the head. Now the end effect is very similar so not that bad of an analogy, but it's not exactly the same thing.

And loft only plays a minor role in how far offline the results will end up. Generally speaking, a player with a 100 mph driver club speed will generally see the ball travel offline about 2-3 yards for each degree the lie angle is off. And that range is good for all clubs in the set. The driver loft doesn't make it less sensitive than any other club in the set. Typically no more than a 1/2 yard different than any other club in the set.If you have more sensitivity to lie angle with the irons than you do with the driver, there are several possibilities but my first guess is that it's related to how the lie angle of the club effects your set-up at address. Irons have much less curvature on the sole and the ball is much closer and gives a different visual perspective than it does in the driver. So the lie angle being off at address with the irons is much more noticeable than with the driver. Now that's not saying that the lie angle relative to the club position at address is really what people should pay attention to, it's not. The only thing that matters is what happens at impact. But that doesn't stop a lot of people from doing it anyways. Also the long stock driver lengths and tendencies for the stock driver lie angles to be more upright than most people need have 'trained' us over time to accept that it's ok for the lie angle to be off with the driver.

 

 

I think my d plane isn’t correct. For reference ping static chart has me 3 degrees upright lies and +.5 length. I have crazy short dinosaur arms I finding out. So what do I do with my driver? I just changed my lies on irons from standard to plus 3 up. It made an enormous improvement. I also want to attempt to go more upright on driver and fairways wood lie angles. How would I go about this? Is the best option just to find an OEM that has upright angles to begins with on driver and fairway woods? I no I can use manufactures

Sleeves to help some. I’m using the Callaway epic max ls driver and Callaway maverick subzero 3 wood. I don’t think those two have upright lies compared to other options. Thanks 

[Stuart_G]

10 hours ago, LowAndLeft32 said:

I think my d plane isn’t correct. For reference ping static chart has me 3 degrees upright lies and +.5 length.

 

But what does the dry erase marker test tell you?   You can do it for the driver as well as the irons.   Static testing is only a starting place at best, not very reliable.   And drivers tend to be a bit more upright to start with relative to the irons.

 

 

 

10 hours ago, LowAndLeft32 said:

Sleeves to help some. I’m using the Callaway epic max ls driver and Callaway maverick subzero 3 wood. I don’t think those two have upright lies compared to other options. Thanks 

 

The "D" setting on the callaway adapter gives a bit more upright lie angle.

[LowAndLeft32]

On 5/9/2021 at 4:55 AM, Stuart_G said:

 

But what does the dry erase marker test tell you?   You can do it for the driver as well as the irons.   Static testing is only a starting place at best, not very reliable.   And drivers tend to be a bit more upright to start with relative to the irons.

 

 

 

 

The "D" setting on the callaway adapter gives a bit more upright lie angle.

So I tried the dry erase test with two sets of irons. First set was 1* flat current gamers and another set is 3* up. Ping chart has me at 3 up and +.5 in on length. I have short arms. The really interesting thing was the dry erase line was almost straight up on down on both the 1 flat and 3 up irons. Does that even make sense? Or do I just adjust that much to make the lie angle work? Thanks 

[Stuart_G]

37 minutes ago, LowAndLeft32 said:

So I tried the dry erase test with two sets of irons. First set was 1* flat current gamers and another set is 3* up. Ping chart has me at 3 up and +.5 in on length. I have short arms. The really interesting thing was the dry erase line was almost straight up on down on both the 1 flat and 3 up irons. Does that even make sense? Or do I just adjust that much to make the lie angle work? Thanks 

 

It's certainly possible you adjust.  It's also possible that either the combination of stock lie angles and actual lengths are different enough that after the adjustment they aren't as far away from each other as the the adjusted amount makes them seem.  It's the actual length and lie angle that matter, not the variation from the stock values - you can also include variation in the manufacturing tolerances to that.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Stuart_G

[LowAndLeft32]

6 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

It's certainly possible you adjust.  It's also possible that either the combination of stock lie angles and actual lengths are different enough that after the adjustment they aren't as far away from each other as the the adjusted amount makes them seem.  It's the actual length and lie angle that matter, not the variation from the stock values - you can also include variation in the manufacturing tolerances to that.

Great feedback thanks. I did have the lie angles adjusted based on stock lies. So hopefully the club fitter did it right and the lies are bang on from manufactures specs. I will note these are two different clubs heads so that is another variable in the mix. 

[jubilee_links]

Everything in fitting is personal to the golfer and their delivery and release - its a very dynamic process. Also we as humans react to things that either suit or dont suit our 'eye'.

 

I have just changed my OG SIM max to the upright lie angle (10.5 head, -0.75 loft, 59.5 lie) -

 

I was living on the high toe which meant nice draws If I released it well but blocks if I dont. Various shaft combos resulted in the same pattern - again, I am a classic mid handicapper with swing variation by the day.

 

First few rounds with the more upright lie has meant change in ballflight - but mostly down to setup I think - the more upright shaft just feels a bit easier (for me).

One thing I noticed (and there are multiple threads on this) is that TM drivers are 56deg lie off the shelf whereas  many others are 58 or so (Callaway, titleist). Whats the idea of TM having flat lie settings - is it another 'marginal gain' for 'improved distance' that is great for iron byron but meaningless for most mid handicapers

[Jefferson Steelflex]

On 5/8/2020 at 7:16 AM, Adam C said:

A 10 degree driver with a 4 degree off lie angle results in about a 1/4 degree face angle change, so you are talking about very small amounts that should not usually result in much difference. If you are already cutting the ball, it certainly won't counter that flight, but it shouldn't make it noticeably worse.

if you extrapolate this to calculate for a 40 degree iron what does the degree face angle change look like? Would it be a one degree face angle change for a 40 degree iron if the lie angle is off by 4 degrees or what would the math look like? Thank you in advance for any response.

[Stuart_G]

11 hours ago, Jefferson Steelflex said:

if you extrapolate this to calculate for a 40 degree iron what does the degree face angle change look like? Would it be a one degree face angle change for a 40 degree iron if the lie angle is off by 4 degrees or what would the math look like? Thank you in advance for any response.

 

Lie angle errors is not really the the same thing as the face orientation being off.   Yes it does effect the start line and curvature in similar ways but the calcs are different.

 

Also, the offline error due to lie angle being off is not linear with loft.   It's actually biggest around the 6 or 7 iron and gets smaller as you go in either direction to the driver or the wedge.  But overall, the amount of change to the error as loft changes is very small.    You can safely generalize as 2-3 yards per degree that the lie angle is off for any club/loft  (that is for full swings for someone who hits their driver ~250 yards).   As you might expect, the error will scale with how much distance a person has with any particular club.

 

If you're really interested in the science and some numbers - start here for a simple overview.

 

https://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/lie1.php

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Stuart_G

[ShortGolfer]

I have a definite preference for short upright clubs, so when I heard that the ladies Stealth 7W has a 60 degree lie angle, I bought one on eBay and put my preferred wood shaft in it.

It is very short, just 39 inches.  Needed 11g of Tungsten tip weight to bring it up to C4.  It is very easy to swing.  I can hit both draws and fades with it.

I have a very unusual neurology, being an cross dominant stroke survivor.  I discovered last year that it isn't hard for me to work the ball. 

So, even though I don't swing very fast, it makes more sense for  me to play to my strengths than work on distance.

[Jefferson Steelflex]

8 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Lie angle errors is not really the the same thing as the face orientation being off.   Yes it does effect the start line and curvature in similar ways but the calcs are different.

 

Also, the offline error due to lie angle being off is not linear with loft.   It's actually biggest around the 6 or 7 iron and gets smaller as you go in either direction to the driver or the wedge.  But overall, the amount of change to the error as loft changes is very small.    You can safely generalize as 2-3 yards per degree that the lie angle is off for any club/loft  (that is for full swings for someone who hits their driver ~250 yards).   As you might expect, the error will scale with how much distance a person has with any particular club.

 

If you're really interested in the science and some numbers - start here for a simple overview.

 

https://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/lie1.php

 

 

 

thank you for the response and information. I’ve been led to believe that the higher the loft is, the more important the lie angle becomes. The prevailing sentiment that I’ve heard says that the higher the loft, the greater directional difference becomes the more the lie angle is incorrect. According to what you’re saying, this isn’t true? Also, what’s your opinion on how lie angle affects putters? Do the same principles as full swing golf clubs apply to putters?

Edited June 8, 2023 by Jefferson Steelflex

[Stuart_G]

24 minutes ago, Jefferson Steelflex said:

thank you for the response and information. I’ve been led to believe that the higher the loft is, the more important the lie angle becomes. The prevailing sentiment that I’ve heard says that the higher the loft, the greater directional difference becomes the more the lie angle is incorrect. According to what you’re saying, this isn’t true?

 

The direction difference does increase - but the total offline distance does not (significantly) since it's offset by the loss of total distance with the higher loft and different effects on the curvature of the ball (again check out the link for more details).  

 

 

24 minutes ago, Jefferson Steelflex said:

Also, what’s your opinion on how lie angle affects putters? Do the same principles as full swing golf clubs apply to putters?

 

It does in part to a small extent.  With full swing clubs, there is both the directional error plus added curvature to the ball (which isn't the case with the putter).  But it's to a much lesser extent since the loft is so small and also it's a very consistent error so can be compensated for very easily (and usually unconsciously).