Ben Hogan's swing mastery...

[OldFrog75]

With no video, digital cameras, or Trackman available how in the world did Ben Hogan develop such a thorough understanding of the mechanics of a good golf swing. Did he have a mentor or was it all just trial and error over many years and tens of thousands of range/shag balls?

[jaroscakj]

If you were to ask Henny Bogan, he would probably tell you he dug it out of the dirt.

[OldFrog75]

You are probably right about that.

[Shallowface]

Seve used to say all he needed were his hands and his eyes, and I would imagine Hogan would have told you the same thing.

It's no different than the modern approach to buying equipment. When I venture over to the other sections of the board, I read about all of the science involved in fitting equipment, but then we find more stories of failure than success when the clubs actually make their way into the real world.

Hitting golf shots off a mat, one right after another, which really helps in nailing the really important factors of posture, grip and alignment, is a lot different than playing the course with its uneven lies and visual distractions, both of which play havoc with posture, grip and alignment. It's the reason why our great range sessions rarely translate into success on the course itself.

I prefer to pick clubs the way I always have. Shop the used section. Find something, sit it down and say "gee that looks great!" Then give it a waggle or two for weight and flex, buy it for as little as possible and then take it out to try. This approach provides the same mixed results as the launch monitors, and when I go to unload the club I almost always get out of it what I have in it. Often times I'll make a small profit due to the fact that I have given the club a nice cleaning and replaced the grip with an inexpensive Hireko Karma product.

[MK7Golf21]

it is pretty interesting how he was able to in his own swing without the use of cameras etc. or even a second pair of eyes because feel isn't real (you feel laid off but are across the line type of stuff).

[RobotDoctor]

I believe Mr. Hogan developed his swing theories and his swing by hitting thousands upon thousands of balls. Early in his career he fought a hook. Later, after realizing that a uncontrolled hook wasn't going to work for a consistent swing, he retooled his swing to produce a fade. He essentially took the left side of the hole out of his shot repertoire. Mr. Hogan was a perfectionist in terms of the golf swing. He is probably the greatest ball striker to ever play the game. It has been reported that when Mr. Hogan's swing was honed in a person could lay down a 10' x 10' blanket 270 yards down the fairway and he would hit a couple dozen balls and the balls would land inside that blanket pretty much every shot. Is that folklore or is that fact? I have no idea but hearing stories of how accurate Mr. Hogan was I would not doubt it.

[Foozle]

One of my favourite Hogan stories was that on one hole in practice he found a level lay up spot on an otherwise sloping fairway and about 230 yards of the tee. It was described as about the size of a double blanket. He told his caddy to take care replacing the divot as he would be playing from there for the rest of the week. In 3 of the 4 rounds he did!

[RobotDoctor]

That's an awesome recollection. Amazing shot and distance control!!!

[Nels55]

My thoughts:

Hogan was an extremely intelligent man who was desperate to play well. Being rather poor in the great depression can affect how someone goes about their business! He seems to have had the ability to meticulously test things in his swing keeping what worked while tossing out what did not. Kind of the opposite of most golfers. Once he had his swing mechanics figured out he spent his time honing his swing. The other thing is that early on he was a self admitted choker who could not play well when he was in contention and there were crowds of people watching him. He developed his ability to overcome this with mental toughness and a detachment of sorts. The Hogan mystique.

One story that I believe I have heard him tell on a video is that he was complaining to Valerie that he just could not putt as well as those other guys who made long putts all the time. Valerie said 'Well Ben all all you have to do is to hit the ball closer to the hole then they do'. He said that from that point on he strove to do just that. I think he got pretty good at it. Hmm okay one more story which your have probably heard is that a pro was asked after golfing with Hogan if he talked with Hogan while playing. The pro said 'Oh yeah we talked a lot!' The reporters became very interested and asked what they talked about. The pro said 'Well, mostly he said you're away'.

[SteveNZ]

I'm sure this isn't true, but it's a good one. A guy is watching Hogan on the range and he's hitting 2-irons. Hogan hits a couple and the guy asks, "how far are you hitting those?"

"192... 195", Hogan replies.

"That's incredible," the guy says - "you can tell within 3 yards how far you're hitting a 2-iron?"

"No", says Hogan. "I hit the FIRST 192, and the SECOND 195".

[olegolfer]

Probably the only one Hogan ever acknowledged helping him was Henry Picard...

 

[twidener]

I saw him play once in 1970. Watched him on the range and followed for 15 holes. It was quite an experience in course management and even though he seemed to not like the way he struck the ball, I thought it was great. On holes where he needed to keep the ball in play or a hole where it called for a fade off the tee he would hit a shot that took off about 3 yards left of his target and at the apex of the balls flight it would just turn over and drop. Essentially it was almost a straight shot. And he could still hit it with some length.

[farmer]

I don't know about Ben Hogan, but I watched Sam Snead at the old Quad Cities in '72 or '73. On the practice tee, he sent his caddie down range to retrieve his balls, which was common in those days. As he went through the bag, he would hit, caddie would take a step and catch the ball in his shag bag. With each club, the caddie never had to move enough to fall out of the bed of a pickup. There is a video of Hogan practicing at ANGC, and when you see his caddie, he hardly moves. Amazing stuff.

[swingman123123]

:)

[J-Blade]

Supposedly a true story... Arnold Palmer and Jim Murray (Famed L.A. Times golf writer) were playing a round one afternoon at Rancho Park GC. Palmer hooked a tee shot off into the woods. Upon finding his ball, Arnie remarked to Murray, "What would your hero, Hogan do with this?" "I don't know, said, Murray, "He'd never hit it over here." 

[baloo]

I almost think lack of technology helped. It's so easy nowadays to read and watch so much golf content thinking it makes you better only to find out it's had little to no effect. He didn't have such distractions, had to go out and just work at it.

Also, he never had to worry about how his swing looked on camera. It was all based on results and feel. Practical solutions based on experience often trump theoretical ideas IMO.

Edited August 22, 2020 by baloo

[hammergolf]

On 5/11/2020 at 4:17 PM, OldFrog75 said:

With no video, digital cameras, or Trackman available how in the world did Ben Hogan develop such a thorough understanding of the mechanics of a good golf swing. Did he have a mentor or was it all just trial and error over many years and tens of thousands of range/shag balls?

He used to always say the only thing in golf you can believe is the golf ball. 

[smashdn]

I think Mr. Hogan just had an incredible amount of control over his body, especially his arms and hands.  When you read his books he uses the words pronation and suppination to describe these movements, medical terms, an indication to me to his exacting nature.  There is no doubt to me that as he was searching for the correct positions he was able to feel a 1* increase or decrease in either pronation or suppination.  He could feel when the club was not where it needed to be at the top.  Then off course when he found the positions he practiced relentlessly until the positions were ingrained through muscle memory.  I think he was the ultimate feel player who had incredible control of his body movements and used a fairly straightforward motion not requiring much in the way of "adjustments" on the downswing to correct for positions he got to in the backswing.

Edited August 28, 2020 by smashdn

[Jack Pearsall]

Hogan developed his specific swing mechanics to fight his turrible hook problem. They seem to forget that his fantastic core move during his swing was one of the fastest ever seem. The guy was a machine. By todays standards, he has a lot of excess movement given the tech advances in balls, shafts and materials. Not a swing to emulate today.

[Dr. Block]

On 8/31/2020 at 1:46 PM, Jack Pearsall said:

Hogan developed his specific swing mechanics to fight his turrible hook problem. They seem to forget that his fantastic core move during his swing was one of the fastest ever seem. The guy was a machine. By todays standards, he has a lot of excess movement given the tech advances in balls, shafts and materials. Not a swing to emulate today.

 Mac O'Grady built an entire framework for the modern golfswing in his MORAD research based on the move hogan developed to overcome his "Turrible hook problem".   Hogans nearly perfect swing path and clubface angle controlled by his powerful rotary release are fundamentals that are still very relevant today.   Why are the relevant?  They are the very building blocks of the modern golf swing.  

Edited September 1, 2020 by Dr. Block

[rich13]

Here's an interesting fact about Hogan that people don't seem to comment on. it would also explain why people find it very difficult to replicate his swing:

From Golf Digest.....

For good measure, Hogan was double-jointed, able to touch his thumb to his wrist, and extremely supple. "I tried to copy Hogan for a long time, but I finally had to give up," says Gary Player. "It was wrecking my game. The man was a gymnast."

[smashdn]

But did he get into positions that a "normal" person with adequate flexibility could not?

[Dr. Block]

On 9/8/2020 at 10:22 AM, smashdn said:

But did he get into positions that a "normal" person with adequate flexibility could not?

Most "normal" people can't even come close to any (past of present) tour players ability to turn their hips through impact and control the sequence of their release - whether its rotary (Hogan) or roll release (Snead).   I think its more a matter of athleticism then it is flexibility - the pivot and release is where the athletes are separated from the high handicaps. 

 

What can be emulated is clubface angle and path.  Hogan was exceptional at that.  He took the roll and clubface rotation out of the release - way ahead of his time in that regard.  

Edited September 10, 2020 by Dr. Block

[smashdn]

I guess what I mean is, is there something that Hogan showed that he was able to do because of his double-jointedness, etc. that someone else could not?

 

I can emulate his grip.  I can try to get to that position at the top with the wrist but my left hand wrist just can't do the radial deviation to maintain that "flat back of hand to wrist" position.  I cup mine.  I can get the feel of pulling the right elbow to the right hip bone and letting it follow the hip down and through.

 

Tony Finau is a very athletic person but I don't see his swing as particularly athletic in its movements save for his swing speed.  DJ and Rory however get into positions that I don't see many people capable of doing.

[disco111]

Watch his hands/wrists.....at the 2:15 time it's super slomo. You also notice that he took the club back on the inside, which should not be that condusive to fading the ball, at least in my opinion. 

[Dr. Block]

On 9/11/2020 at 8:29 AM, smashdn said:

I guess what I mean is, is there something that Hogan showed that he was able to do because of his double-jointedness, etc. that someone else could not?

 

I can emulate his grip.  I can try to get to that position at the top with the wrist but my left hand wrist just can't do the radial deviation to maintain that "flat back of hand to wrist" position.  I cup mine.  I can get the feel of pulling the right elbow to the right hip bone and letting it follow the hip down and through.

 

Tony Finau is a very athletic person but I don't see his swing as particularly athletic in its movements save for his swing speed.  DJ and Rory however get into positions that I don't see many people capable of doing.

I think Finau's athleticism is much the same, its his pivot. His body rotation through impact is so powerful that he can take a rather short compact move and get elite tour level clubhead speed from it.

 

I'm sure you could probably maintain the flat wrist position and the associated square and stable clubface if you really dedicated yourself to it, but you'd likely lose your ability to create speed in the swing.  That's what I find happens for me.  The cup is much easier, but it's troublesome.   A past teacher of mine calls it creating lag the wrong way.  Cupping the wrist and opening the clubface then requires some manner of flip through impact.  So I see what you mean, Hogan did have excellent wrist strength and flexibility to be able to hold that position and maintain considerable lag.  But a lot of top players maintain that flat wrist and stable clubface, its one of the secrets to their consistency.      

Edited September 14, 2020 by Dr. Block

[southplains]

On 9/11/2020 at 9:36 AM, disco111 said:

Watch his hands/wrists.....at the 2:15 time it's super slomo. You also notice that he took the club back on the inside, which should not be that condusive to fading the ball, at least in my opinion. 

I never get tired of watching that particular video.  I learn something new every

time I see it.  This time, I'm noticing the people standing in front of him and how

it looks like he is aiming left of the pond with his shoulders while his feet are

closed (directly at the pond).  I can almost sense he is practicing for a specific

shot he expects to face in a tournament with the distraction of a tournament

gallery in front of him.  He seems to be studiously ignoring the guys' shadows

and probable movements in his sight line.  I wonder how he is behaving between

shots.  Does he talk to those guys while he rakes another ball from the pile?

Is he demonstrating something for them? Does he ask them to jingle coins in

their pockets while he swings? Is the pond actually within reach of his drives?

Is he hitting his trademark fade or trying to draw the ball? Maybe all of the

above. The backswings don't seem so much an inside path as just

flattening the plane after swinging straight back.  I see how he leans into

his left side coming down, turning around that left knee as he pushes off

the right foot.

 

Edited October 5, 2020 by southplains

[twidener]

I watched him once warming up before a round and he spoke to no one and no one bothered him. He hit shots. And most of the other players were watching him while they were trying to warm up before their round. I was right behind him and most of the shots looked the same. When I saw him play he would shape his shots. His fade moved about 3 or 4 yards and the same for a draw. The ball would just drop left or right and he would change the trajectory depending on what was needed.

[southplains]

Now I'm guessing the video was some kind of promotion for an exhibition

match with local scratch amateurs.  The film was probably edited for tv

newscasts.  Surely nobody would stand so close to him unless they were

specifically invited to.  He did one of these exhibition nine-hole matches

before a big junior tournament in Texas when I was starting out in the fifty's.

I didn't get a chance to watch him warming up.  Just followed them around

without realizing what a priviledge it was.  The crowd was so big I couldn't

get close.  I must have been about ten and don't remember much about it.

[Jack Pearsall]

Jack Pearsall's comment above was not meant to be condescending to Hogan. But it appears to not be suitable, honestly.

JP grew up in awe of him, played his irons for so many years, still has numerous sets and studied the videos when that became something you could do. He looks upon Hogan as his golfing muse. Hogan shared so many similarities with JP's father who was a prewar champion ten pin bowler in Norcal. How JP wished his newspaper clippings book of his conquests survived. So many trophies that over time just couldn't be hauled about as we moved about our busy lives. Besides, everyone's dad has champions trophies right?

Ironically, Jack Pearsall's father loved Sammy Snead, that fluidness and silky ease and panache that Sammy always had. If you'd seen Dad bowl, you might think of Sammy. The Twinkle Toes of the lanes and almost always high single, high average and the team anchor. 

When we were just kids, we had this 'Atticus Finch shots the mad dog' moment when it was revealed to us that old fuddy-duddy dad was not always the old man we had seen him as, but a swash bucking athlete of champion caliber. Yes, our jaws dropped...