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2020 Ben Hogan Icon blades


RobotDoctor

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Shot 75 today...would have been under par if I hit the wedges worth a sh**. The course today was a little longer and got plenty of opportunities to test out the Icons. Didn’t have any to kick in distance but consistently hitting the 8 iron through pitching wedge to 15 to 20 feet. Flew a couple right over top of the flag to start the round, but starting to get the distances dialed in. I’d say they are about 5 yards short of my old set of Callaway Apexes, which is pretty darn good for a blade. My favorite club in the bag is becoming the 4 iron. Hit it off the tee four times today and three were in the fairway (the other was user error and I thinned it pretty badly). The other three were hit solidly and felt amazing...I measured them at 230, 227, and 225, and that’s with basically zero roll on a soggy course. Also hit a pitching wedge hacking out of some deep stuff, and hit it pretty fat, but surprisingly didn’t lose but 5-10 yards of distance thanks to the V-sole. Loving the Icons...time to get the rest of the bag dialed in.

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Just got the notification this morning that my Icons are shipping today - order placed on 7/2, so just about what I was expecting.

Ping G430 LST 9* (set to 7.5*), 45", Fujikura Ventus TR Black 6x
Ping G430 LST 14.5* (set to 13*) Fujikura Ventus Black 7x
TaylorMade M2 Tour 18*, Fujikura Rombax P95x or Tour Edge CBX Iron-Wood 17* (Black Pearl) Fujikura Ventus HB Blue 9x or Tour Issue or Titleist TSi2 21* (set to 20*) Fujikura Ventus Black 8x
Cobra King RF Forged MB - 4-PW, KBS C-Taper 120 Stiff
Corey Paul 52*, Nippon Modus 125/Titleist Vokey SM8 58* K-Grind & 62* M-Grind DG S200
Byron Morgan long pipe neck B-17, Brushed Mystic finish, 34" or Byron Morgan long pipe neck beached 007x

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4l7a4088.jpg

4l7a4086.jpg

4l7a4082.jpgI was surprised to see that mine came with a Lamkin UTX grip. (which I like very much) Also pictured is the wedge in Icon with the Ft Worth 15 and Apex Plus. Both the 15s and the Icons have the Tour V 110 S but the icons feel a little lighter than my 15s. I'm not sure if that's true, just my initial thoughts. Headed to the range soon. I'm excited to shank these!

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Lol.... no shanks!!!

Man, I hope mine don't have the UTX, I hate those! But shipping seems to be speeding up, I am really wanting to get mine in hand soon!!!

Ping G430 10k 9*  Ventus Velocore blue 6x

Ping G430 LST 15* HZRDUS smoke yellow 70s

Ping G430 19* Tour Chrome 2.0 85s

PXG 0211  4i KBS C Taper Lite 115x ss1x

Srixon zx7 mkii 5-7, Z forged ii 8-P KBS C Taper Lite 

Ping s159 50/12s, 54/10h, 58/8b  KBS Tour
Scotty Cameron NP2 Studio Stainless  34"

 

 

 

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Oh man, I hope mine come the same way -- I currently play the UTX on my irons, and I'd be switching out the stock grips for UTX before long on the Icons, so it would be awesome if I didn't need to do that.

Ping G430 LST 9* (set to 7.5*), 45", Fujikura Ventus TR Black 6x
Ping G430 LST 14.5* (set to 13*) Fujikura Ventus Black 7x
TaylorMade M2 Tour 18*, Fujikura Rombax P95x or Tour Edge CBX Iron-Wood 17* (Black Pearl) Fujikura Ventus HB Blue 9x or Tour Issue or Titleist TSi2 21* (set to 20*) Fujikura Ventus Black 8x
Cobra King RF Forged MB - 4-PW, KBS C-Taper 120 Stiff
Corey Paul 52*, Nippon Modus 125/Titleist Vokey SM8 58* K-Grind & 62* M-Grind DG S200
Byron Morgan long pipe neck B-17, Brushed Mystic finish, 34" or Byron Morgan long pipe neck beached 007x

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Chad, if mine come with them and I can pull them, they are yours. I much prefer the Z5 that were on the demos and I normally am not a Lamkin fan... I'm thinking of calling them and asking if they can ship them with the grips off if that what I'm getting....

Ping G430 10k 9*  Ventus Velocore blue 6x

Ping G430 LST 15* HZRDUS smoke yellow 70s

Ping G430 19* Tour Chrome 2.0 85s

PXG 0211  4i KBS C Taper Lite 115x ss1x

Srixon zx7 mkii 5-7, Z forged ii 8-P KBS C Taper Lite 

Ping s159 50/12s, 54/10h, 58/8b  KBS Tour
Scotty Cameron NP2 Studio Stainless  34"

 

 

 

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Also saw Rick Shiels latest vid on the Icons... It was nice to see that any doubts he had early on were quickly put to rest after he put them in play... these seem to be a lot more forgiving than the Ft. Worths.

Ping G430 10k 9*  Ventus Velocore blue 6x

Ping G430 LST 15* HZRDUS smoke yellow 70s

Ping G430 19* Tour Chrome 2.0 85s

PXG 0211  4i KBS C Taper Lite 115x ss1x

Srixon zx7 mkii 5-7, Z forged ii 8-P KBS C Taper Lite 

Ping s159 50/12s, 54/10h, 58/8b  KBS Tour
Scotty Cameron NP2 Studio Stainless  34"

 

 

 

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I'll let you know tomorrow how they arrive, because in the comments when I placed my order, I asked them to not install grips, since I'm not a huge fan of the Z5. But I would be surprised if they did that, since they don't seem to allow for much customization other than length and lie.

Ping G430 LST 9* (set to 7.5*), 45", Fujikura Ventus TR Black 6x
Ping G430 LST 14.5* (set to 13*) Fujikura Ventus Black 7x
TaylorMade M2 Tour 18*, Fujikura Rombax P95x or Tour Edge CBX Iron-Wood 17* (Black Pearl) Fujikura Ventus HB Blue 9x or Tour Issue or Titleist TSi2 21* (set to 20*) Fujikura Ventus Black 8x
Cobra King RF Forged MB - 4-PW, KBS C-Taper 120 Stiff
Corey Paul 52*, Nippon Modus 125/Titleist Vokey SM8 58* K-Grind & 62* M-Grind DG S200
Byron Morgan long pipe neck B-17, Brushed Mystic finish, 34" or Byron Morgan long pipe neck beached 007x

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I got my Icons today, and they did actually leave the grips uninstalled in the box as I'd requested, and they are the UTX. It's funny that it worked out that way, because I was thinking that if they did send them without grips, I'd install some UTX that I already have, but if I'd known that they were going to be switch to UTX as their standard grip (I wonder if this is temporary due to a supply issue or something), I would have had them just put them on. I'd been hoping to get them out for a round tomorrow morning, but I doubt I'll have time to put the grips on today. Glad to have them in hand now, though!

Ping G430 LST 9* (set to 7.5*), 45", Fujikura Ventus TR Black 6x
Ping G430 LST 14.5* (set to 13*) Fujikura Ventus Black 7x
TaylorMade M2 Tour 18*, Fujikura Rombax P95x or Tour Edge CBX Iron-Wood 17* (Black Pearl) Fujikura Ventus HB Blue 9x or Tour Issue or Titleist TSi2 21* (set to 20*) Fujikura Ventus Black 8x
Cobra King RF Forged MB - 4-PW, KBS C-Taper 120 Stiff
Corey Paul 52*, Nippon Modus 125/Titleist Vokey SM8 58* K-Grind & 62* M-Grind DG S200
Byron Morgan long pipe neck B-17, Brushed Mystic finish, 34" or Byron Morgan long pipe neck beached 007x

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I am guessing I will be getting the UTX also... I got the new Golf Works catalogue in the mail yesterday and don't even see the Z5(?) listed as an option in the Lamkin section. I am going to call Hogan today and see if I can get them sent uninstalled.

Edit* Just spoke to Tyler at BH... he and Davis are super nice, but I am not overly confident with the info when I speak to them... I asked for the grips to be sent uninstalled as they seem to not be the Z5, he did say the "hybrid" in standard but not sure why it would be any different from the UTX you guys are getting. Also had to make sure they had changed the shaft to the S300 like I asked. Original order form says Tour V 110, and sounds like they make a note at the bottom... I'm a little nervous honestly.

Ping G430 10k 9*  Ventus Velocore blue 6x

Ping G430 LST 15* HZRDUS smoke yellow 70s

Ping G430 19* Tour Chrome 2.0 85s

PXG 0211  4i KBS C Taper Lite 115x ss1x

Srixon zx7 mkii 5-7, Z forged ii 8-P KBS C Taper Lite 

Ping s159 50/12s, 54/10h, 58/8b  KBS Tour
Scotty Cameron NP2 Studio Stainless  34"

 

 

 

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Was able to finally get to the range with the combo set. Coming from JPX919 Tours, fully expected these to be different and they are. I went with the KBS Tour V 120 X straight in and pretty happy with that decision. The Mizunos had DG Tour 120X and to be honest, they feel better than the Hogan combo. It's all subjective but the BH feel a little harsher.

One thing I had been fighting for a bit is shorter distance in the Mizuno scoring irons. Nothing crazy but noticeable. Checked the L/L/L and all were fine. Was able to hit 15 ProV1s on the actual course from 135 and 150 (each) after my range session and never had an issue with distance using these BH. But moreover, the combination of these heads with KBS had a significantly tighter dispersion.

With the PTX Pros (4-7), I just feel totally free to get left as hard as I can and don't have to worry about anything wild. Can't wait to play a real round with these tools.

I know this is an Icons thread. Let me just say that the V sole is great and was getting super control with 8-P in a tight circle. But the star of the day was the UiHi driving iron - 3i, 18deg. I'm more excited about that single club just because my home course requires that distance about 5 times per round.

If you're on the fence...pull the trigger on the 2020 Icons/Hogan combo.

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Good to see another positive review, and on the utility iron as well. I would dearly love to solve the riddle known as the 4 iron spot I just haven’t found a hybrid I can always count on.

The difference you’re feeling vs the 919 could be part shaft. The Tour V 120 is a strong shaft and will tighten dispersion, but it is a lot of shaft for me. Even the 110 feels very stable. I feel like it plays stouter flex for flex vs the DG 120 (which I like a lot, but I go s300 in that one.) Both excellent but different. But that also could be the Tour V helping your distance. There’s a reason Phil has played them all these years!

 

Callaway Paradym Triple Diamond 10.5 w/Diamana TB 60S

PXG GEN6 5 wood w/Diamana S-plus 70 stiff

Yamaha RMX VD 7 wood w/Diamana S-plus 70 stiff

Callaway Mavrik Pro hybrid (22) w/Aldila Tour Blue 85 stiff hybrid

Wilson Staff Model CB 5-G w/DG s300 shafts

Edel T grind 54 w/Nippon 125 wedge shaft

Fourteen RM-12 58 w/Dynamic Golds400

Axis1 Rose putter, 34 inches

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Got mine all gripped up & ready to go today, and I’ll be taking them out for the first time tomorrow—looking forward to trying them out!

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Ping G430 LST 9* (set to 7.5*), 45", Fujikura Ventus TR Black 6x
Ping G430 LST 14.5* (set to 13*) Fujikura Ventus Black 7x
TaylorMade M2 Tour 18*, Fujikura Rombax P95x or Tour Edge CBX Iron-Wood 17* (Black Pearl) Fujikura Ventus HB Blue 9x or Tour Issue or Titleist TSi2 21* (set to 20*) Fujikura Ventus Black 8x
Cobra King RF Forged MB - 4-PW, KBS C-Taper 120 Stiff
Corey Paul 52*, Nippon Modus 125/Titleist Vokey SM8 58* K-Grind & 62* M-Grind DG S200
Byron Morgan long pipe neck B-17, Brushed Mystic finish, 34" or Byron Morgan long pipe neck beached 007x

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First round is in the books, and If today is any indication, I’m probably going to be reshafting them. My current irons are Scratch SB-1 blades, 3-PW with Modus3 120x, which I’ve had in the bag for about 5 years. I have very few complaints with them, but they have more traditional lofts (48* PW), and I need 8 clubs to cover the range from 22-48 degrees. The 4 degree gaps in the Icon long irons makes it so I only need 7 to go from 22-46. The Icon 4i is the same loft as my SB-1 3i. That allows me to put my 62 degree wedge in the bag all the time, which is a club I’ve really grown to like, especially around the greens. Of course, BH doesn’t offer the Modus 120, and prior to getting my SB-1s, I played X100 for several years, so that’s what I ordered in the Icon Black.

I really loved the look of these irons, and in hand, they don’t disappoint. I didn’t hit any balls with most of them prior to playing today, so most of them only got hit a couple times at most (I don’t think I ever hit the PW today), but after those limited swings, the finish looks like it should be very durable. No scratches or finish wear that I noticed, even on the 9 iron after I hit it from a fairway bunker. Feel is also very nice—different/firmer than my Scratch irons, but still very pleasant.

I’m not sure if it’s something that I need to get used to or, if X100 isn’t a good fit for me anymore, but it’s probably not a great sign when you start shopping online for Modus 120 shafts during the round...

I’m going to give the combo a couple more rounds before making any kind of move, because I did hit some good shots with them, especially later in the round. I cost myself several shots with terrible long iron shots on the front nine, but I hit a few close on the back, and on the last two holes, I worked a big high draw around some trees with a 6 iron to be just off the green in 2 on a par 5, and on the last hole, hit a 4 iron to about 20 feet from 210 into a decent breeze after leaving my tee shot out to right on a dogleg left. So it could just be an adjustment in feel that I need to get used to, because I do like the trajectory and workability I’ve seen so far.

Finally, here’s a few pics:

1e6a5bfa-b8f2-482b-b8b2-b3d989e7b79a.jpeg

a590fa26-798e-4a4c-9d73-f6eb7816d1ae.jpeg

555e3cd5-c235-486e-ab0f-984f31ae37fa.jpeg

43c5e650-4e2e-499e-b3e6-fbeeb2bae5de.jpeg

 

Ping G430 LST 9* (set to 7.5*), 45", Fujikura Ventus TR Black 6x
Ping G430 LST 14.5* (set to 13*) Fujikura Ventus Black 7x
TaylorMade M2 Tour 18*, Fujikura Rombax P95x or Tour Edge CBX Iron-Wood 17* (Black Pearl) Fujikura Ventus HB Blue 9x or Tour Issue or Titleist TSi2 21* (set to 20*) Fujikura Ventus Black 8x
Cobra King RF Forged MB - 4-PW, KBS C-Taper 120 Stiff
Corey Paul 52*, Nippon Modus 125/Titleist Vokey SM8 58* K-Grind & 62* M-Grind DG S200
Byron Morgan long pipe neck B-17, Brushed Mystic finish, 34" or Byron Morgan long pipe neck beached 007x

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I felt the same way. My previous gamers were the '99 BH Apex blades with Modus Tour 120 stiff shafts, a great combination. I played two rounds with my Icons with KBS V Tour 110 stiff shafts and reshafted with Modus Tour 120 stiff shafts and the Icons now have the feel and performance I expect from an iron. It made a world of difference. While it stinks that BHC doesn't offer more shaft selections the price point is low enough that getting new shafts isn't a huge hit. My suggestion to the BHC is drop the KBS shaft and offer the Nippon Modus3 Tour 120 and 105 shafts.

Driver:  TaylorMade 300 Mini 11.5° (10.2°), Fujikura Ventus Blue 5S Velocore

3W:  TaylorMade M4 15°, Graphite Design Tour AD DI 7S

Hybrid:  TaylorMade Sim2 2 Iron Hybrid 17°, Mitsubishi Tensai AV Raw Blue 80 stiff

Irons:  Mizuno Pro 223 4-PW, Nippon Modus3 Tour 120 stiff

GW / SW: Mizuno T-22, 52° (bent to 50°)/ 56° (bent to 54°), True Temper S400

LW:  Scratch Golf 1018 forged 58° DS, Nippon Modus3 Tour 120 stiff

Putter:  Byron Morgan Epic Day custom, Salty MidPlus cork grip

Grips:  BestGrips Augusta Microperf leather slip on

 

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The new PTx and the Icon seem to be garnering some more attention this year, I'd be curious to see if going forward the BHC doesnt add some shaft selections. I wanted to love the KBS 110 but after demoing, the S300 is what I felt most comfortable with, but if the Modus 105 were an option it would have been a no brainer.... and I would have gladly spent $100 more.

Ping G430 10k 9*  Ventus Velocore blue 6x

Ping G430 LST 15* HZRDUS smoke yellow 70s

Ping G430 19* Tour Chrome 2.0 85s

PXG 0211  4i KBS C Taper Lite 115x ss1x

Srixon zx7 mkii 5-7, Z forged ii 8-P KBS C Taper Lite 

Ping s159 50/12s, 54/10h, 58/8b  KBS Tour
Scotty Cameron NP2 Studio Stainless  34"

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I've now played 3 more rounds with the Icons, and I'm feeling a lot better about the X100 in them. The first round, I think it was just an issue of adjusting to a little different feel. Since then, I've been hitting them better, especially the long irons. The biggest thing now is getting comfortable with how far they go compared to my SB-1s. Once you get to 6-PW, the lofts are supposed to be 2* stronger, but I'm finding that I'm seeing closer to a full club difference. I've hit a few over greens because of that, but with any irons, it takes some time to understand exactly how far they go. Overall, I'm very impressed so far, and it does seem like the finish will be very durable, so I'm optimistic that they'll hold up appearance-wise. All in all, these things are a great value for the price.

Ping G430 LST 9* (set to 7.5*), 45", Fujikura Ventus TR Black 6x
Ping G430 LST 14.5* (set to 13*) Fujikura Ventus Black 7x
TaylorMade M2 Tour 18*, Fujikura Rombax P95x or Tour Edge CBX Iron-Wood 17* (Black Pearl) Fujikura Ventus HB Blue 9x or Tour Issue or Titleist TSi2 21* (set to 20*) Fujikura Ventus Black 8x
Cobra King RF Forged MB - 4-PW, KBS C-Taper 120 Stiff
Corey Paul 52*, Nippon Modus 125/Titleist Vokey SM8 58* K-Grind & 62* M-Grind DG S200
Byron Morgan long pipe neck B-17, Brushed Mystic finish, 34" or Byron Morgan long pipe neck beached 007x

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Mine have shipped, I can not wait!!!!  I thought I might lose interest after some time as my 745s have been money, but I am still as excited as ever!!

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Ping G430 10k 9*  Ventus Velocore blue 6x

Ping G430 LST 15* HZRDUS smoke yellow 70s

Ping G430 19* Tour Chrome 2.0 85s

PXG 0211  4i KBS C Taper Lite 115x ss1x

Srixon zx7 mkii 5-7, Z forged ii 8-P KBS C Taper Lite 

Ping s159 50/12s, 54/10h, 58/8b  KBS Tour
Scotty Cameron NP2 Studio Stainless  34"

 

 

 

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For those of you that went with the combo set, what other recent irons would you compare the PTx Pro long irons to in terms of performance (forgiveness, spin rate, etc)? I’ve seen plenty of photos and understand that the top line is a little thicker, but am interested in a set and trying to decide between a combo or straight Icons, but the extra forgiveness in the long irons sounds tempting and would likely allow me to play them thru the 4 iron (currently playing Adams MB2s with a new level 4995 HB in the 4 iron slot).

Callaway Epic Speed TD LS 9* Fujikura Ventus Blue 6x
Callaway Epic Flash 15* and 21* ACCRA CS1 70 M5
Adams Super 9031 23* Nunchuk Xi
Newl Level 902 Forged 5-P Nippon Modus 125X
Cleveland RTX4 50 and New Level M-Type 54, 58 Nippon Modus 125
Byron Morgan 612
Shapland stand bag or PING Moonlite
Snell MTB X

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I have the Combos, The Top Line is a little thicker..but not bad at all.

In my opinion the appearance blends well.

If I had it do over... I'd go ICON all the way 4-P and maybe consider a 4 Hybrid  and 5 Hybrid for a rainy day.

To me there is a gap on yardage in the combo set I'm having a difficult time adjusting to. 

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6 hours ago, Bo Hogan said:

I have the Combos, The Top Line is a little thicker..but not bad at all.

In my opinion the appearance blends well.

If I had it do over... I'd go ICON all the way 4-P and maybe consider a 4 Hybrid  and 5 Hybrid for a rainy day.

To me there is a gap on yardage in the combo set I'm having a difficult time adjusting to. 

 

I guess that's not too surprising.  I would absolutely expect they spin less and launch higher than a comparable Icon.  Wonder if they would bend just the PTX Pros a degree weak?

Callaway Epic Speed TD LS 9* Fujikura Ventus Blue 6x
Callaway Epic Flash 15* and 21* ACCRA CS1 70 M5
Adams Super 9031 23* Nunchuk Xi
Newl Level 902 Forged 5-P Nippon Modus 125X
Cleveland RTX4 50 and New Level M-Type 54, 58 Nippon Modus 125
Byron Morgan 612
Shapland stand bag or PING Moonlite
Snell MTB X

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4 hours ago, rtraudt said:

 

I guess that's not too surprising.  I would absolutely expect they spin less and launch higher than a comparable Icon.  Wonder if they would bend just the PTX Pros a degree weak?

They don’t do loft adjustments—the options you can customize are length, lie, and grip size

Ping G430 LST 9* (set to 7.5*), 45", Fujikura Ventus TR Black 6x
Ping G430 LST 14.5* (set to 13*) Fujikura Ventus Black 7x
TaylorMade M2 Tour 18*, Fujikura Rombax P95x or Tour Edge CBX Iron-Wood 17* (Black Pearl) Fujikura Ventus HB Blue 9x or Tour Issue or Titleist TSi2 21* (set to 20*) Fujikura Ventus Black 8x
Cobra King RF Forged MB - 4-PW, KBS C-Taper 120 Stiff
Corey Paul 52*, Nippon Modus 125/Titleist Vokey SM8 58* K-Grind & 62* M-Grind DG S200
Byron Morgan long pipe neck B-17, Brushed Mystic finish, 34" or Byron Morgan long pipe neck beached 007x

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      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies

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