Do you throw or twist?

[GreatStrike]

12 hours ago, Carlito said:

I know.... but if you look at the flat spot during the impact zone you see how the handle rises and the clubhead keeps a long and flat low point.

I personally think you have to accomplish the following:  flat arms and steep hands (ulnar deviation) a.k.a  late hitting.

 

 

Correct, the pulling upward (parametric acceleration) of the handle does cause the clubhead's travel to level out with excellent timing. No doubt about that.

 

I'm sorry, I do not understand your notion that to succeed in performing parametric acceleration that you have to accomplish the following: flat arms (which I do not know what that means) and steep hands (ulnar deviation) a.k.a. late hitting. Along with the term 'flat arms' I also do not understand your term 'steep hands'.  

 

To perform a 'late hit' you have both radial deviation (with lag angle) and ulnar deviation (through impact zone). Ulnar deviation happens near impact and post-impact, and doesn't have any direct connection with 'late hitting' unless you consider it as being what happens at the end or conclusion of a late hit action. Radial deviation takes place when the so-called 'lag angle' is formed, and ulnar deviation takes place when the lag angle has expended. Maybe you meant that in the process of performing parametric acceleration you are moving from radial deviation toward ulnar deviation.         

[GreatStrike]

To Rob - 

 

Shawn Clement's 'Baton Twirl' action does not retain or hold the wrist c0ck as it twirls over. Watch Shawn's wrist action as he twirls the baton in the video. You'll see that in the middle of the twirl his wrist uncocks, and then it cocks again - just like the wrist action of a sound golf swing. When the baton twirl begins to happen the wrist starts uncocking. In the middle of the twirl is when the clubshaft aligns with the lead arm, and then there is a re-cocking. 

 

There is a very common tendency for amateur golfers to muscularly force the uncocking of the wrist. And, there is an equal if not greater tendency for amateur golfers to muscularly hold-off and restrict the re-cocking of the wrist, which drastically slows down the arm speed and in particular slows down clubhead speed. Its the relaxed wrists and the golf club's weight and momentum (with a touch of gentle persuasion to start the baton twirl) that is all that's needed for the perfect wrist/hand action. Don't think you can get away with a golf swing that has wrist c0ck pre-impact and not also have the wrist re-c0ck post-impact.

 

If you can practice acquiring Shawn's baton twirl I think you will be very pleased with the results.                

 

 

 

Rory McIlroy knows how to baton twirl...

Edited October 1, 2020 by Nail_It

[scopek]

This is an interesting thread. Monte has a new video on his website where he discusses how the left wrist goes from flexion to extension during the release. He describes the release through impact like a throwing motion or “cast”. I’ve heard and read Jim Hardy talk about this but for some reason Monte’s explanation was eye opening. 

Edited September 3, 2020 by scopek

[GreatStrike]

On 9/3/2020 at 3:05 PM, Nail_It said:

To Rob - 

 

Shawn Clement's 'Baton Twirl' action does not retain or hold the wrist c0ck as it twirls over. Watch Shawn's wrist action as he twirls the baton in the video. You'll see that in the middle of the twirl his wrist uncocks, and then it cocks again - just like the wrist action of a sound golf swing. When the baton twirl begins to happen the wrist starts uncocking. In the middle of the twirl is when the clubshaft aligns with the lead arm, and then there is a re-cocking. 

 

There is a very common tendency for amateur golfers to muscularly force the uncocking of the wrist. And, there is an equal if not greater tendency for amateur golfers to muscularly hold-off and restrict the re-cocking of the wrist, which drastically slows down the arm speed and in particular slows down clubhead speed. Its the relaxed wrists and the golf club's weight and momentum (with a touch of gentle persuasion to start the baton twirl) that is all that's needed for the perfect wrist/hand action. Don't think you can get away with a golf swing that has wrist c0ck pre-impact and not also have the wrist re-c0ck post-impact.

 

If you can practice acquiring Shawn's baton twirl I think you will be very pleased with the results.                

 

 

 

 

Rob - I would prefer that you post your questions or comments here on the forum.

 

For you to experience the wizardry of the 'baton twirl', here's a tip for you. When first experimenting and learning the 'baton twirl' it is easier to coach your wrists (with gentle persuasion) when there is virtually no acceleration of the arms/hands in the impact zone - meaning they are in essence 'coasting', definitely not accelerating but not decelerating either - just coasting. When the forearms/wrists/hands are coasting there should hopefully be less muscular tension and the wrists should be easier to be gently persuaded to 'baton twirl'. It really does not take much force of coercion to begin the baton twirl action. Once you see the results and get used to the action it will become easier and easier to accomplish and eventually it will become second-nature just like putting one foot in front of the other to walk. Really!  

 

Your other question and comment asking if the 'baton twirl' retains the 90 degree clubshaft-to-forearm angle through impact needs a bit of important understanding how the twirl action works. There is a release action that takes place when the wrist c0ck starts uncocking - this happens in an amazingly freewheeling, totally unpowered, non-manipulated, fashion when the wrist action works just like a 'baton twirl'.  To explain - if you hold your arm (either arm) out in front of you with your palm facing upward while holding an imaginary baton (or pencil or shaft) your wrist will be cocked and the baton will be at an angle of ~90 degrees to the forearm. After twirling the baton your palm will now be facing downward and your wrist will have 're-cocked' and will be at an angle of ~90 degrees to the forearm once again. Watch Shawn's baton video as he twirls the baton - during the 'twirl' his wrist c0ck is not retained - it is released where the baton's end cap points outward away from him. (The only time the baton points vertically upward with a wrist c0ck angle is when he brings the baton back over his forearm to reload the twirl again - something that of course doesn't happen in a golf swing.)

 

In the example I gave of twirling the imaginary baton (or pencil or shaft) the baton does not rotate where it points vertically upward - it releases horizontally level with the ground. This exact wrist action movement is what almost all amateur golfers have such a difficult time understanding. What takes place in the middle of the twirl motion is actually the be-all and end-all, the essential element, of the golf swing ... it is this point-in-time when the golf club explodes in speed due to the simple reaction from the twirling action. And this action does not need any added muscular help or manipulation from the golfer - it's like it is self-powered and self-guided. In fact, any added help from the golfer in an effort to make the golf club swing move faster will almost certainly disrupt the twirl action and in-turn drastically slow down the club's speed.

 

That 'point-in-time' when the golf club explodes in speed through impact like a guided missile that needs no added help is exactly like how an old timey flail works. The phenomenon (a miracle to many) of how a flail works is extraordinarily like the release phase of a sound golf swing with two major exceptions. The flail is made up of two sticks that are (a)attached to each other with a leather tether or chain and the farmer threshing his wheat with the flail (b)doesn't have to square a clubface. If our forearms and hands were connected with a ball-and-socket swivel (or chain or leather tether) instead of connected with a wrist made up of carpal bones that (i)prevents our hand and forearm from rotating independently and we didn't (ii)have to square the clubface then learning to swing a golf club soundly would be a WHOLE LOT EASIER. But other than those two major differences the golf swing release phase is exactly like the using a flail.

 

Grab your forearm tightly at the wrist and try to rotate your hand independently of your forearm, and visa-versa. There's not more than a few degrees of movement possible between the rotation of your forearm and hand. Since the golfer needs to both release the wrist c0ck angle and square the clubface it is undeniably obvious that 'both' the forearm and the hand must rotate at the same time while releasing (extending) the golf club outward to strike the golf ball. It is a fallacy to think that these two actions (release & squaring the clubface) can be performed independently, or in some way that the hand/wrist is asked to do something different from what the forearm is asked to do since anatomically the forearm/wrist/hand must rotate as a structure unit. But 95% of amateur golfers try their best to separate the two actions, and that's often the reason they come over-the-top, flip, swing outside-in, etc., etc. The 'baton twirl' action combines these two necessary actions nicely in a very tidy package. Without giving it some in-depth thought most people don't realize or understand how such a simple action can accomplish two crucial and momentous actions ... and implementing the 'baton twirl' takes about as much strength and dexterity as (you guess it) twirling a baton! That's why 4'10" 90 lb LPGA players make it look so easy while young, strong amateur male golfers struggle. If you want to see some excellent wrist action from less than perfectly conditioned PGA tour players, watch the LPGA players and the AJGA players.       

 

This video below shows how explosive in speed the release is when using a flail action. You'll see in the video that it really doesn't take much arm or body speed preceding the flail's release to make the flail move quite fast. Also, please make note of what the instructor says about where the energy should go - the energy should go down, not forward toward the target. That is why the SwingRite and Momentus type training clubs measure the outward energy (down the clubshaft) and why the Medicus hinged golf clubs are designed to work only when the energy is outward (down the shaft) that keeps the hinges tautly stretched, aligned and stiff. You want to swing a golf club with the same outward energy like you'd swing a rock on the end of a string.     

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

                   

Edited September 5, 2020 by Nail_It

[GreatStrike]

On 9/3/2020 at 3:50 PM, scopek said:

This is an interesting thread. Monte has a new video on his website where he discusses how the left wrist goes from flexion to extension during the release. He describes the release through impact like a throwing motion or “cast”. I’ve heard and read Jim Hardy talk about this but for some reason Monte’s explanation was eye opening. 

 

To add to this thread that many find interesting...

 

In my view the [so-called] 'release' or 'release phase' of the golf swing is when the golfer starts transferring energy (whatever energy he has stored, loaded or built-up) into the golf club, and to be more precisely stated - into the outer most part of the club which is the clubhead. To transfer this energy there must motion and momentum (that becomes the stored or loaded energy) and there must be a feel or sense (and the understanding) for the proper timing in which the energy is transferred into an implement...be that implement a damp towel you are snapping, a bullwhip tip, a saltwater fishing rod or a golf club clubhead. Much like when a whip-cracker cracks his bullwhip he transfers the energy into the bullwhip's tip, an good golf swing transfers the energy into the clubhead. The inexperienced person doesn't [yet] have the feel or understanding (or the knack) for what it takes to transfer the energy all the way out to the furthest most distant part of the implement - the part that he wants to move the fastest. Oftentimes the amateur golfer just tries to swing the handle or the entire golf club as fast as he can. Or, he is told that he needs to decelerate his arms/hands in order to transfer the energy into the golf club, but that doesn't work either. Then, there are the wrist flippers and the body heavers. And therein lies a major problem with amateur golfers trying to learn how to swing a golf club effectively. Maybe the following will help to shed some light on things. 

 

Most amateur golfers will fail to understand (or accept) that to carry out an effective 'release' the transfer of energy must reach the furthest (most distant) part of the golf club when it strikes the golf ball - the clubhead - not the handle and not the entire golf club. For this to happen requires that there be a deceleration (either natural or intentional) of the hands - much like when snapping a towel or cracking a bullwhip or when casting a saltwater fishing rod. For the energy to move from your body through your hands and into the golf club the hands must twirl or (as some like to say) roll-over. Here's the kicker - the hands actually stop, but not as you might think. The hands stop when they roll-over or twirl within the movement of the larger circular arc made by the body rotation. You can think of the hands making a small circular arc within a larger circular arc.  For example - when casting a long saltwater fishing rod the fisherman will make a backward circular arc with his arms over his shoulder, and at some point during the forward arm movement the fisherman will make his release so his rod swivels or pivots (the rod moves from behind his hands to in front of his hands) to cast the lure the distance and the direction he wants it. During this forward arm movement the fisherman's hands actually stop so they cross-over to release the energy into the rod - all while continuing to move in the larger circular arc created by the arms. Another analogy is how the baseball pitcher releases energy into his baseball by uncocking his wrist and stopping his hand within the larger circular arc created by his body and arm.  Hopefully that makes sense.

 

This is what most amateur golfers don't really think about, notice, perceive, discover or understand - - that the release, this twirl or roll-over action, stops the hands within the larger circular motion the body and arms are making. In other words, you can think of the hands making a smaller roll-over or twirling circle over the toe line that happens within the larger circle made by the rotation of the body and arms. The hands are actually stopping while still moving in the larger circular arc created by the body rotation. The hands are making a small circle all while moving within a larger circle. The hands rolling-over or twirling is what transfers the energy into the golf club...and for the golf club to get from one side of the hands to the other side of the hands the hands must stop relative to the golf club, BUT they do not stop relative to the motion of the larger circular arc they are traveling in that is produced by the body rotation. Hopefully this makes sense because it is rather difficult to explain, especially with the written word. 

 

Many golfers do one of two things wrong when attempting to swing a golf club. Make the handle (grip) or the entire golf club go fast...or they think of the downswing as only one large circular arc and try to either add 'hitting' force with their hand(s) or decelerate their arms and hands and flip. If you do the former you are only slapping at the ball and not coming close to compressing the ball to your maximum potential, and you probably deal with an open clubface, slicing, a high ball flight, over-the-top and outside-in swing path. If you do the latter you probably suffer from fat and thin contact, lack distance control and have all sorts of mishits. 

 

So, rather than thinking of the golf downswing as simply one big circular arc, think of it as two circular arcs - one large circular arc made by the rotational movement of your body and your arms and a smaller one you make (within the larger one) to transfer energy into your the golf club's clubhead. The body and arms keep moving in the large circular arc during the time the wrists twirl or roll-over to transfer energy into the golf club.  A flip doesn't accomplish what is needed. Dragging the handle through with body rotation isn't the answer either. Remember, you want the energy to transfer outward or down the shaft to the clubhead, not trying to bend the shaft toward the target. A smoothly made large circular arc with a keenly made baton twirl within the large circular arc makes for a sound golf swing.  If you are struggling to figure out how to get the hands to baton twirl or roll-over think about how you use a broom or a hockey stick or a saltwater fishing rod with the lead hand moving in the opposite direction of the trail hand. Use both hands to make the baton twirl but keep the lead hand below or underneath the trail hand. Swing the club horizontally to get a sense for how the baton twirl or roll-over release action looks, and how it feels to make an action within a larger movement.        

 

 

► This Shawn Clement video (below) that I am adding about 'How Hands And Club Release' is spot-on!  Add the information from Shawn's 'Baton Twirl' video (posted previously) and it should be very helpful to anyone seeking how to perform the release properly.    

 

            

Edited September 9, 2020 by Nail_It

[GreatStrike]

For a golfer to have a sound golf swing the golfer must be able to transfer energy from his or her body into the golf club's clubhead. 

 

In the first video below Mike Bender demonstrates how to transfer energy into the clubhead (via the 'release') by stopping the hands. During his small arm swing Mike cocks his wrists and then he uncocks his wrists and abruptly stops his hands (to transfer the energy into the alignment stick) without ever having the alignment stick move past or beyond his hands. Of course stopping his hands is easy to do with a lightweight alignment stick representing a golf club. We all get what he is conveying and his logic is accurate and understandable, but there's some confusion that needs to be addressed and cleared up in an effort to make what he is demonstrating more attributable to a typical golf swing using a real golf club.  

 

If the golf swing was made by not moving any part of the body except the hands at the wrist joints then the only way to transfer maximum energy into the golf club would be to literally and abruptly stop the uncocking hands as Mike Bender demonstrates in his video. However, that is not how we swing a golf club - we rotate our torso and move our arms too. So, how does this change things from what Mike Bender is demonstrating in his video?

 

Since we swing a golf club by rotating our torso and moving our arms this means that within the rotational circular movement of the body and arms there is 'also' the cocking [and uncocking and re-cocking again] of the wrists that must take place. You might think of it as a critical action taking place within a larger action - much like how a baseball pitcher precisely releases the baseball from his fingers as he uncocks his wrist all within the larger movement of his body rotation and arm movement. The problem is transferring the energy into the golf club AND having the golf club move past or beyond the hands at impact in a way that effectively provides all the parameters of a sound golf swing. (Flipping moves the golf club past or beyond the hands but it happens pre-impact and that is not effective because flipping originates with an early extension or casting action.) The hands cannot just simply stop (like Mike Bender demonstrates in his video) in a real golf swing which has body rotation, arm movement and an actual golf club because the body, arm and club weight momentum must keep moving as it comes to a finish in the follow-through. Since both the golf club and the golfer's body have weight and momentum that can't just be stopped suddenly at impact a different method than just stopping the hands must be constructed. The 'equivalent' of stopping the hands must somehow happen while at the same time the torso rotation and arm movement continues moving ... and this 'equivalent' method makes it necessary for the golf club to move past or beyond the hands.  That 'hand stopping equivalent' method is the forearms/wrists/hands baton twirling or rolling-over which allows the golf club to get from one side of the hands to the other side of the hands while continuing to move in the circular arc created by the torso and arm movement. (Let me be clear about this - the club handle's butt end needs to slow to such a great extent relative to the clubhead's speed that it is 'equivalent to stopping' when compared to Mike Bender's example above or compared to the example of when one snaps a towel or a bullwhip.)   

 

Some people have an easier time than others learning how to baton twirl or rollover their hands. There's different methods to encourage the wrists to rollover or baton twirl (without the wrist breaking-down and collapsing causing a flip). Some people are good at sensing how the body naturally decelerates the arms and they use this feel to naturally uncock the wrist with a rollover action and transfer the energy into the golf club. Others are good at using their inherent keen timing to purposely decelerate their arms which initiates the uncocking and rollover action to begin the transfer of energy process.  And still yet others prefer to trigger the rollover using the broom method where the lead hand moves slightly lower or underneath and slows as the trail hand moves slightly higher...just like how you use your hands when sweeping with a straw broom. All methods must create a true rollover of baton twirl without breaking-down at the lead wrist, which causes a flip. Each method has a degree of timing associated with it. Understanding what the goal is (to transfer energy from the arms into the golf club and down the shaft to the clubhead) usually helps people achieve their objective easier and learn how to do it faster. I'm afraid most amateur golfers just try to move the handle or the entire golf club as fast as they can, which is not conducive in producing solid strikes. 

 

For those golfers that try to swing their arms and hands through impact as fast as possible and end up dragging the handle through with the clubface open, this should be a real eye-opener. Likewise, for those golfers that try to swing their arms and hands through impact as fast as possible and use forearm and hand strength to square the clubface but end up extending early and casting, this should be a real eye-opener too. And for those golfers that try to use incorrect forearm/wrist/hand action to swing the club fast and square the clubface but end up collapsing the lead wrist and flipping the club, your eyes should be wide open reading about this and viewing the videos.  

 

I encourage anyone that wants to learn how to transfer energy into the golf club's clubhead with proper wrist action rollover (baton twirl) - that you go to the practice range and tee-up the balls to make it easier for you, and start out swinging at half speed at most. Keep uppermost in mind what your goal is - to transfer energy from your body to the arms into the golf club and down the shaft to the clubhead (just like a whip)...and the ONLY way for this transfer to happen is for the arms to decelerate. There is NO other way - period. This is likely the complete opposite of your current intent when you swing a golf club. Play around with the different methods (above) that spur the arms to decelerate and encourage the wrists to rollover or baton twirl. Play around with your inherent sense of timing by using only half speed swings at first. Most people have an excellent sense of timing that can be tapped into very quickly - they just need to be told what their goal is and how to use their timing to make it happen.  Hopefully you will soon enjoy newfound clubhead speed, added distance, a boring pro trajectory, superb ball flight and the beautiful sound of compressing the golf ball. And I'll bet you will be able to hold your follow-through and pose for the camera like Rory McIlroy instead of looking like you are trying to get out of the way of a charging bull in the streets of Pamplona, Spain.                                 

 

 

 

 

 

I included the video below because I think the instructor is rather funny in how he explains things. He's correct in stating that in order to 'release' the energy into the golf club there needs to be a crossover (for the golf club to get from one side of the hands to the other side of the hands). His 'crossover' is the equivalent of stopping his hands while the hands continue moving in the circular arc due to the momentum of his torso and arms. (For those people following this thread did you notice at 0:42 how he demonstrates his right hand action - with his right palm facing down toward the ground?)  Let the forearms cross to show the ball who's the boss...   Haha ... okay. 

 

  

If you are not transferring your stored energy to the outer most part of the golf club (the clubhead) at the point of clubface-ball contact then you are not using your body effectively and you are not using the golf club the way it was designed to be used. Depending on how badly you are misusing both your body and the golf club [in your failure to properly] transfer energy into the clubhead ... it could be comparable to driving a car on the Interstate hung in second gear with two flat tires and a couple spark plug wires disconnected.  

 

  

Edited September 28, 2020 by Nail_It

[GreatStrike]

 

[PJ1120]

23 hours ago, Nail_It said:

 

Elk is putting on a few Lbs

[GreatStrike]

On 9/12/2020 at 10:18 AM, PJ1120 said:

Elk is putting on a few Lbs

 

Yes, Elk has had a sizable gut for a number of years now. So much for the [incorrect] belief you need to be in good shape or strong to have a sound golf swing or to play competitively on tour.   

 

Here's a list of some of the top tour pros that didn't much believe in maintaining good fitness as they compete/d on tour:

Jack Nicklaus

JoAnne Carner

Billy Casper

Laura Davies

Lee Trevino

Raymond Floyd

Julius Boros

Guy Boros

Nancy Lopez

Angel Cabrera

Cristie Kerr

Fred Couples

Mark Calcavecchia

Craig Stradler

Kevin Stadler

Orville Moody

Pat Hurst

Brittany Lincicome

Colin Montgomerie

Eduardo Romero

Miguel Angel Jimenez

Darren Clarke

Miller Barber

Porky Oliver

Christina Kim

Joey Sindelar

Bob Murphy

Fuzzy Zoeller

Tim Herron

Phil Mickelson

Kiradech Aphibarnrat

Shanshan Feng

John Daly

Carl Pettersson

Boo Weekley

Jason Dufner

Inbee Park

Pat Perez

Russell Claydon

Duffy Waldorf

Steve Lowery

Phil Blackmar

Kenny Perry

Olin Browne

J.B. Holmes

Lee Westwood

Jim Gallagher, Jr.

Colt Knost

Brendon de Jonge

Jason Gore

J.J. Henry

Hal Sutton

Mark O'Meara

David Duval

Andrew 'Beef' Johnston 

Patrick Reed

Shane Lowry

Harry Higgs

 

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Nail_It

[GreatStrike]

On 7/24/2020 at 8:51 AM, moehogan said:

The pic with just the club and Hogan removed is one that helped increase my understanding and awareness of what actually needs to happen in transition. I wanted to see exactly WHERE I needed to move the club. The HOW To, explaining feels and body parts movements, can often be very subjective and interpreted many different ways. Understanding how the club should move in space just gives one an additional perspective that helps in the experimentation process.

Ben Hogan once said "experimenting is my enjoyment". If golf could be laid out in a universal, fool-proof, detailed step-by-step process easily understood by anyone, the planet would be filled with plus handies. Enjoy the journey!

 

Your comment; "Understanding how the club should move in space gives an additional perspective..." is not only enlightening but significantly important to 'how' a golfer actually swings the golf club. 'Intent' and knowing 'how' and 'why' can sometimes be an obscure objective or become muddled in one's mind. I'll try to explain.

 

What I mean by this is, for instance when hitting an open-faced flop shot the good golfer will swing more of the entire length of the golf club at the same speed - meaning the handle end of the club is going about as fast as the clubhead. He'll do this by having less wrist c0ck in the backswing and not really releasing through impact.  He'll also maintain his arm/hand speed as he drags the entire golf club through the impact zone in an effort to hold the clubface open. He can swing really hard and gets a glancing blow off the laid-back wide open clubface that shoots the ball really high but not very far. Mission accomplished.  But that is completely opposite of how a good golfer makes a normal golf swing. 

 

Instead of wanting to swing the entire length of the golf club at the same speed as you do when hitting a flop shot the good golfer hitting a 5-iron or driver wants to swing the clubhead. Let me repeat that - he wants to swing 'the clubhead'. Let's see what changes. First, and most importantly, the good golfer has no intention of making the entire golf club move fast - he only cares about the clubhead. He does not attempt to maintain his arm/hand speed through impact because the last thing he wants to have happen is to drag the handle and shaft through the impact zone. This causes casting, slow clubhead speeds and an open clubface. Sound familiar? In fact, he wants just the opposite to happen! 

 

If you want the clubhead to move its fastest when it contacts the golf ball you don't want to swing the whole golf club - you want to swing the clubhead. When you see a amateur golfer already uncocking his wrists outside of his right thigh in the downswing more than likely he's trying to swing the entire golf club as fast as possible and/or he is trying to increase his arm/hand speed through impact. It doesn't work that way! There's an unconscious lack of perception for many people that can very easily be corrected. You can't snap a towel or a whip if the entire towel or whip goes the same speed, can you? One end of the towel or whip needs to stop, right? It's just that simple! So, the reason a good golfer with a sound swing doesn't release his wrist c0ck early (casting) is because he is swinging the clubhead, not the entire golf club ... and since he wants the clubhead to go as fast as possible - what does the handle end of the club need to do? It needs to stop! 

 

From the point where a good golfer's wrists just begins to uncock to where impact occurs his hands don't move but a few inches even though his clubhead is still 3 feet away from the golf ball. If it has boggled your mind how and why the good golfer is able to get so deep into his downswing before he releases - it is because you are not cognizant of what his intention is and what needs to happen in your swing.  And that could entail two issues - (1) you need to swing the clubhead, not the entire golf club and (2) the handle end of the golf club needs to stop. The good golfer's intention is to have the handle stop at impact therefore he fully expects his hands to only move a few inches as his clubhead moves a few feet. Of course due to the fact that our body and arms are unwinding and moving the hands actually stop within the body/arms movement.  It's not like the body, arms, hands and handle all stop dead right at impact and there is no follow-through. Even with slow-motion video it's difficult to understand what is happening because the momentum deceives the action that takes place. But the hands and handle do indeed stop...and that is why the wrists need to twirl/pivot/rollover as the golf club moves from one side of the hands to the other side of the hands at impact. This wrist action is much easier to learn when your swing intention is correct and you are fully aware of two important things - (1) you are swinging the clubhead, not the entire golf club and (2) the handle end of the golf club purposely needs to stop (twirl/pivot/rollover) at impact. Just changing your swing intention may be all that is needed. I'm betting you'll see some excellent results quickly and gain a feel for it in a short period of time.            

[baudi]

 

 

 

 

.   https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.diehardsport.com%2Fgolf%2Fmiguel-jimenez-stretching-routine-masters-beauty%2F&psig=AOvVaw2DbaqwEfvmxRVWeD4baScs&ust=1600281759733000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCPCqyafo6-sCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE

 

Here's a list of some of the top tour pros that didn't much believe in maintaining good fitness as they compete/d on tour:

Jack Nicklaus

JoAnne Carner

Billy Casper

Laura Davies

Lee Trevino

Raymond Floyd

Julius Boros

Guy Boros

Nancy Lopez

Angel Cabrera

Cristie Kerr

Fred Couples

Mark Calcavecchia

Craig Stradler

Kevin Stadler

Orville Moody

Pat Hurst

Brittany Lincicome

Colin Montgomerie

Eduardo Romero

Miguel Angel Jimenez

Darren Clarke

Miller Barber

Porky Oliver

Christina Kim

Joey Sindelar

Bob Murphy

Fuzzy Zoeller

Tim Herron

Phil Mickelson

Kiradech Aphibarnrat

Shanshan Feng

John Daly

Carl Pettersson

Boo Weekley

Jason Dufner

Inbee Park

Pat Perez

Russell Claydon

Duffy Waldorf

Steve Lowery

Phil Blackmar

Kenny Perry

Olin Browne

J.B. Holmes

Lee Westwood

Jim Gallagher, Jr.

Colt Knost

Brendon de Jonge

Jason Gore

J.J. Henry

Hal Sutton

Mark O'Meara

David Duval

Andrew 'Beef' Johnston 

Patrick Reed

Shane Lowry

Harry Higgs

 

[GreatStrike]

1 hour ago, baudi said:

 

.   https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.diehardsport.com%2Fgolf%2Fmiguel-jimenez-stretching-routine-masters-beauty%2F&psig=AOvVaw2DbaqwEfvmxRVWeD4baScs&ust=1600281759733000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCPCqyafo6-sCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE

 

Miguel Angel Jimenez

 

 

Miguel's sizable gut doesn't get in the way of him timing his clubhead for maximum speed at impact ... contrary to a lot of people who think you must be in topnotch shape to have a sound golf swing or play tour level golf. 

 

 

[GreatStrike]

Uncock and roll...  Notice how when he makes his release, his fully cocked wrist only has inches to travel as it uncocks, whereas the clubhead has many feet to travel. If it wasn't for the rotation of his body and the movement of his arms the hands would occupy a small in-place position during the uncocking phase and not move except to c0ck and uncock, which would make the clubhead travel three feet. That lever uncocking is how you produce maximum clubhead speed. That is why an early [long travel distance] release equals slow clubhead speed while a late [short travel distance] release equals maximum clubhead speed.  

 

If you can grasp the idea that the wrists shouldn't uncock until they are very close to impact then you should also grasp the idea that there shouldn't be pulling or pushing of the handle through impact - the wrists uncock in just a few inches of travel space and the clubhead smacks the golf ball...and that's it...except the momentum carries the club, arms and body into the follow-through. 

 

If you were standing beside a rug hung over a clothesline and your job was to beat the dust out of the rug with a rug beater you wouldn't have any problem timing your wrist uncocking to release perfectly every time so the rug beater hits the rug solidly flat at maximum speed. It's the same with the golf swing...except our body's momentum carries us into the follow-through. Uncock and roll...  

 

 

 

Watch where Iron Byron releases. And once the release (uncocking) happens then impact follows...and that's it - swing energy drops to zero and momentum carries the body, or the robot's contraption, into a picture posing follow-through. While the robot is a machine and controlled by computer what is important to see is where the uncocking takes place - the [wrist equivalent] lever uncocks and rolls in a very tiny window of travel space as the clubhead travels three feet and impacts the golf ball...and it appears to be a free-wheeling movement, under no power. The robot was designed to mimic Byron Nelson's downswing, but actually comes very close to mimicking the downswing of all sound golf swings. 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2020 by Nail_It

[GreatStrike]

Marc wants to know my thoughts on 'lag'.

 

I think lag is something that all good golfers feel and count on in their golf swings, and beginners and mid-to-higher handicap golfers only experience it every now and then by pure happenstance. I think the ability to produce or create lag and to sustain it through impact definitely separates the low single-digit and plus players from the middle and higher handicap golfers. For a good golf swing I think lag is a necessity. I've never known a player with a sound golf swing not to visibly show an outward sense of having lag in their golf swing that is sustained through impact.

 

I believe some people are able to learn how to acquire lag in their golf swing easier or quicker than others, much like other things associated with body motions and athletic activities. I can only speak to what I personally experience pertaining to lag with my own feels or senses. Likewise, I can only speak to what I believe is important for me personally to produce or create lag in my own golf swing...and what I think is necessary to sustain lag through impact. So, let's get started.

 

My first thoughts on the discussion of lag pertains to what it feels like to me. In general, for me lag feels like a pulling counter force in my hands, but not a force that comes directly from the opposing direction like a tug-of-war type force. I have the sense that the feel is much like swinging a weight around on a string where the load is actually lagging behind my rotating hand. Another feeling would be like when flying a kite, as I run north holding the kite string the wind is catching the kite and driving it southeasterly creating a very taut kite string and the feel that the kite is not only lagging behind but also making a circular arc. Those are general feels reference to what the hands feel. I guess from the other end of the spectrum is that of a water skier veering off to one side of the boat's travel path as the boat driver gently veers in the opposite direction, which produces a buildup of extreme tension on the ski rope as the water first skier lags is slung at great speed through an arc. Of course these are my general sensations not specifically related to the golf swing. The point being, I think to acquire lag you must have whatever load is out on the end (weight, kite, water skier) that moves in an outwardly seeking circular arc, not in a direct line like when pulling a weight or load in a straight line. 

 

More specific to the golf swing, for me lag feels just like what I described above. I feel lag in my hands and I sense the lag in my body. I honestly don't know whether I'm feeling the clubhead's weight or the golf club's center of gravity, but it's a heavy feel and there is a definite feel that the load is lagging the body's rotation. I have a distinct 'feeling' that the clubshaft is bent back (lag pressure), twisted (torqued) and loaded with explosive energy, but I think this 'feel' is not real except for it being loaded with explosive energy. I feel the lag from the start-down at the top, but it builds-up in intensity very quickly in the mid-downswing and then almost instantaneously it's like the golf club's lower half is alive and has a mind of its own. If I purposely swing without lag it feels to me like the clubshaft has no energy in it and clubhead has no clubface. If that is how someone without lag in their swing feels then it makes perfect sense why they would attempt to muscle it.  

 

As for acquiring lag I believe there are a few keys that I personally think need to be followed. The backswing is when the energy is loaded into the body and the golf club. I personally think it is important to learn how to rotate properly in both the backswing and downswing. I also think not having an open clubface at any time in the backswing or the downswing is extremely important to creating lag. (The exceptions are greenside sand shots and true flop shots.) My view is that an open clubface hides the sweetspot behind the hosel, and doing that hampers if not totally prevents loading the club with lag (much like aligning the load directly behind the pulling force instead of off to one side like a water skier example traveling directly behind the boat). I won't get into how to rotate better or how to prevent swinging with an open clubface but below is a good video by Eric Cogorno Golf that nicely explains how having an open clubface causes rotation stall. So, if you want to acquire lag in your golf swing you must rotate well - and if you want to sustain lag in your downswing you must use your body primarily to square the clubface. That said, I think you can incorporate various personalized facets and traits into your release action, but primarily only a good rotation will sustain lag (not maintain lag angle using hand torque forces) until it naturally uncocks the lead wrist, and then the body rotation squares the clubface. If you want to blend in a little roll, swivel or twirl action, or a little wrist bow into your release action then in my opinion make sure it's done only after the natural uncocking is well underway or you're asking for problems that will creep further up into the downswing. (I realize that I'm talking about conditions that take place within a fraction of a second, but that's just how exacting one can get with a lot of experience.) Basically, with lag and a good body rotation through impact to square the clubface all you need is the uncocking which happens naturally if you allow it to happen.

 

Lag for most people is very elusive. I believe this is true because most golfers try to use brute force and maxed-out speed to hit 'at' the golf ball. Lag is actually acquired by learning it by doing the exact opposite. Much like starting a weight swinging around on a string there is a less-than-abrupt (no herky-jerky) early beginning of the downswing that needs to be learned. I feel lag in my chip shots and some even claim they can feel lag when putting. When you go from being able to acquire lag only every once in a great while (by blind luck or surprise chance with no skill involved) to being able to acquire lag with literally every swing, including half swings - then you really won't need the following advice, simply because you've already learned it. This [unneeded] advice is - what you do not want to do is physically try to hold the lag angle. Trying to maintain the lag angle (between the clubshaft and lead forearm) by physically holding it is fruitless and might work once every four dozen swings because your timing was as perfect as ducking a .30-06 fired at your forehead from a par-5 away. In my opinion you do not want to maintain lag as much as you want your body rotation to sustain lag. There is a big difference.   

 

Like getting a weight started swinging around on the end of a string is easy to learn, so is lag in a golf swing if you give it your all. A small child may not understand when you tell them to get the weight moving smoothly and steadily with the weight moving outwardly, but eventually they'll learn how it's done if they keep at it. Golf swing lag is something that probably only 3%-5% of all golfers ever learn, and the ones that never do learn how to create and sustain it incorrectly think brute, brawn and speed is the answer. It's not!  Herky-jerky just doesn't get it! And neither does wrist c0ck bounce.  

 

The reason tour pros are able to compress the golf ball so well and get the distance, distance control, accuracy and spin they do is largely attributed to their ability to use lag to their advantage. Tour pros can have all sorts of weird idiosyncrasies in their golf wings, but without lag they would not be on tour... Is it worth learning to acquire lag? You bet! Especially if you want to experience what it's like to strike a golf ball like the best of the best. 

 

I hope my insights helps you...    

          

 

 

                  

 

 

 

 

[GreatStrike]

On 7/13/2020 at 10:35 PM, bilbry57 said:

Everything you are writing makes perfect sense I have always tried to control release with left side with mixed success. When I was younger I could play reasonably well despite poor mechanics. As I have gotten older my lack of load on my right leg on backswing caused my swing to get very short and steep. 

 

If you ever did in the past have good left side control (from the left hip) you probably lack it now as you've gotten older, but you should be able to get it back unless you have left knee and/or left hip problems.    

 

If you feel that your left side is best to control your golf swing then I cannot emphasize enough the need to make sure that your left leg and left hip is what pulls your left arm and club through the impact zone. As golfers get older their bodies aren't [as] willing to rotate like when they were younger. It is the left leg that must rotate and the left hip that must move to the rear that pulls the upper body, left arm and golf club through the golf ball. Golfers that don't rotate on their left leg and open their left hip find themselves instead pulling and pushing their arms and the club through impact [only] with their arms and hands. They totally lose-out on the tremendous advantages of the kinematic sequence. Without it, it's like a rope that has become limp...and the only thing remaining is to use the arms and hands. 

 

If you are physically able to do it - I highly recommend that you rotate on your left leg and push your left hip rearward to open a large pathway for your arms to swing. Doing this also allows the kinematic sequence to work from the bottom-up to pull your left arm and club through the impact zone. Some may call this 'clearing the left hip' - it is an absolute requirement for a sound golf swing. This helps sustain lag and provides for a proper and natural release that actually encourages shaft lean and a long, flat clubhead delivery through the ball.

 

Here are a few tips when learning (or re-learning) to properly rotate on the left leg and move the left hip rearward:

The shoulders and hips never marry-up (both becoming square with one another) in the downswing

As the left hip opens and moves rearward try to keep the shoulders closed to the target line

Keep the distance from the left hip to the right shoulder at maximum

Keep the distance from the left hip to the clubhead at maximum

Make the left hip move the clubhead from its furthest point (at left arm parallel to the ground) all the way through impact

Practice making 'only' the left hip moving rearward to move the clubhead (from left arm parallel) through impact... 

 

 

Look at these guy's left hips moving to the rear (clearing out), making a large pathway for their left hip to pull their left arm through impact. They do a wonderful job of keeping the distance from their left hip to their right shoulder and the clubhead at maximum distance... 

 

 

 

 

 

    

 

           

Edited September 25, 2020 by Nail_It

[Golfbeat]

Is it not rather the left oblique muscles which pull the left side out of the way? 

[GreatStrike]

2 hours ago, Golfbeat said:

Is it not rather the left oblique muscles which pull the left side out of the way? 

 

Could very well be. I just know that if you don't get your left butt cheek rotating and moving to the rear you won't have anything to pull your upper torso, arms and club through impact. When that happens you have a slackened chain or disrupted kinematic sequence where all you have remaining is an arm swing.

 

It is also important to learn that if the shoulders and arms outrace the pulling left hip it's like putting slack in the [once taught] rope. When the kinematic sequence works effectively there is a distinct feeling (a good feeling) of leaving the arm and club behind and making the left hip pull the [left behind] arm and club through impact. The arm and club will come through impact at the correct time...when you keep them out of the swing and let the sequence chain work. Handicap golfers tend to want to get their clubhead back to the ball as quickly as possible using their arms and hands, whereas players with sound golf swings want their clubheads to take the longest time to arrive back to the ball by keeping their clubhead at the furthest distance from their left hip. When the clubhead is kept at the furthest distance from the rotating and pulling [rearward] left hip the clubhead has more time to buildup speed and is pulled through impact (like a taut band) by the left hip with great force. On the other hand, if the arms were to push then the rotational force in the golf swing would be interrupted and the energy of this natural rotational power would be totally lost (not to be regained again during that swing), and motion could only continue artificially with the hands trying to hit.   

[GreatStrike]

23 hours ago, footmashie said:

 

This is good.   Like McHatton's "the latest is greatest", Al Geiberber's "keep the club last in line", James Black's "the club head is the back end of the club, not the front end", Jackie Burke Jr's "power is slow", quite a few other pearls but cream always rises to the top for us to absorb. 

 

Nice! 👍

 

Look at any athlete in motion, and you can see the arm, hands, and whatever else is being held (e.g. golf club, baseball, football, etc.) has been left behind as the motion starts forward. The baseball pitcher, the batter, the quarterback, the tennis player, the infielder, all look as though the arm has been left behind as the motion starts forward. When looking at the sound golf swing, it too looks like the arm and club have been left behind. It looks this way because that is exactly what is happening! In the sound golf swing the arms do not move on their own. They are pulled by the force that has been built up by the lower body rotating them down through impact. 

 

Lag, drag, pressure and no slack are other conditions that exist in all sound golf swings when a golfer leaves the club behind (avoiding any conscious use of the hands and arms). For no slack to be present in a golf swing, the body rotation would have to start before the club starts back down to impact. This move starts the downswing in a tight sequence, preventing any slack from entering the swing. When the body starts its rotation forward this causes two other needed conditions to occur. First, the body rotation helps add to the wrist flex that happens in the backswing. Secondly, it also puts downward pressure on the club's shaft that can now be transferred as pressure on the ball, compressing it onto the the clubface. This pressure comes from the downward pressure that started to load up the shaft in the first stage of the downswing and body rotation. 

 

This same kind of pressure can be seen building up in a fly rod shaft as the handle of the rod changes directions to move the hook and line forward into the water. When the left wrist is fully flexed and the club's shaft has the needed pressure on it, now all the sound golf swing has to do is drag the clubhead down to the ball. (It is the experienced player with a sound golf swing that knows how to load their shaft and drag it down to the ball using their body rotation without creating slack by trying to use their arms or hands.) The sound golf swing leaves the club behind and the laws of motion help bring it down to impact, giving the feeling of lagging and dragging the club through impact.  

 

Edited September 28, 2020 by Nail_It

[GreatStrike]

On 7/23/2020 at 4:58 PM, footmashie said:

A little mishap at the beginning of the downswing (from the transition) creates a much bigger mess with each passing foot of travel.

 

Good one! That's why the ball is hit within the first inch of transition, make a mistake within that inch and the ability save the shot is reduced to advanced players.

 

In learning to swing (literally swing) a golf club it is necessary (unavoidable) that the golf club must begin the downswing in the correct manner. By 'manner' I mean having the correct form or technique. Do it correctly and the golf ball will travel far and true, and the golf swing will feel practically effortless. Mess it up a little bit and the results will likely be a good miss - but by not beginning the downswing correctly there is nothing left but for the golfer to manhandle the golf club and muscle it into the golf ball with hideous results. 

 

Below are a few videos by PGA instructor Dan Martin explaining precisely how to swing (literally swing) a golf club and it all begins with that first move down. I cannot over emphasize the importance of how the pulling force needs to be longitudinal (aligned straight with the clubshaft) with zero sideways pressure applied to the shaft when swinging a golf club...the same as when swinging a weight on the end of a string. One aspect that Dan Martin explains (that I really like, yet is rarely mentioned by instructors) is that when you 'swing' a golf club correctly the golf swing is really over by the time it reaches around P5 to P6 and for the rest of the swing you just 'ride it out' the rest of the way. How many golfers think they need to try to add something to the swing near impact at the bottom - such as trying to increase arm or hand speed or trying to apply forces using the hands or fingers? This 'ride it out' objective is what I have previously called 'coasting'. This 'ride it out' or 'coasting' tenet is much like what you do after getting the weight spinning around at great speed on the end of the string - you let it 'ride' or 'coast' with it. I have also referenced in a previous post the SwingRite golf training club that measures the outward or down-the-shaft (longitudinal) forces of the golf swing, which is what you want - maximum longitudinal force stretching the shaft with maximum tension when you 'swing' a golf club. Also, I have mention the Medicus hinged golf training club that works only when the golfer's swing force stretches or tensions (longitudinal) the shaft. What actually gets most amateur golfers in trouble from the very get-go when first taking up golf (and even after decades of playing the game and trying to unsuccessfully to get beyond a typical amateur handicap) is the idea that you need to physically push on the side of the golf club's grip to make the golf club or the clubhead move as fast as possible in the direction toward the target. That is not how you 'swing' a golf club! 

 

Hopefully these videos will help some of you struggling to comprehend what is needed to literally [and finally] 'swing' a golf club - and make no doubt about it - it all starts at the very beginning of the downswing and it is over with about midway down...except for the ride. The first video is a preface of sorts for the last two videos. The second video explains the training aid Dan Martin uses to teach his students how to swing (literally swing) a golf club. Enjoy!

 

 

 

         

 

     

Edited October 2, 2020 by Nail_It

[moehogan]

[Lefthook]

11 hours ago, Nail_It said:

 

....

 

I cannot over emphasize the importance of how the pulling force needs to be longitudinal (aligned straight with the clubshaft with zero sideways pressure applied to the shaft when swinging a golf club...the same as when swinging a weight on the end of a string. One aspect that Dan Martin explains (that I really like, yet is rarely mentioned by instructors) is that when you 'swing' a golf club correctly the golf swing is really over by the time it reaches around P5 to P6 and for the rest of the swing you just 'ride it out' the rest of the way. How many golfers think they need to try to add something to the swing near impact at the bottom - such as trying to increase arm or hand speed or trying to apply forces using the hands or fingers? 

....

While I agree to aim for pulling, there is vast documentation out there that good swingers load the shaft in transition. It may not be the most important thing they do, but shaft flex is often largest during transition, because a sudden change of direction - and a wristcock at the top - will lead to significant shaft loading during a powerful transition. True Temper used to have white papers about it on their site, but I don't know if they are still available. 

 

As for your second part ... freewheeling from P5-P6 - Miura wrote a paper about parametric acceleration a few years ago. The implications of his findings were that turning hard through the ball (lead shoulder pulling hard on the shaft) produces significant swing speed.  This force is not produced by hands and arms, so I agree on that part, but it is produced by the big muscles. Lead leg muscles and lead lats.

 

Figure below is based on a mathematical & simplified model, but a mix of the two forces are likely to be present. It will anyway  be some torque at the handle during transition and until inertia starts to release the club - and gradually more linear force towards impact.

 

[GreatStrike]

8 hours ago, Lefthook said:

While I agree to aim for pulling, there is vast documentation out there that good swingers load the shaft in transition. It may not be the most important thing they do, but shaft flex is often largest during transition, because a sudden change of direction - and a wristcock at the top - will lead to significant shaft loading during a powerful transition. True Temper used to have white papers about it on their site, but I don't know if they are still available. 

 

As for your second part ... freewheeling from P5-P6 - Miura wrote a paper about parametric acceleration a few years ago. The implications of his findings were that turning hard through the ball (lead shoulder pulling hard on the shaft) produces significant swing speed.  This force is not produced by hands and arms, so I agree on that part, but it is produced by the big muscles. Lead leg muscles and lead lats.

 

Figure below is based on a mathematical & simplified model, but a mix of the two forces are likely to be present. It will anyway  be some torque at the handle during transition and until inertia starts to release the club - and gradually more linear force towards impact.

 

 

I think we agree.

 

The point of the matter is that for most golfers there is a mistaken belief that to 'swing' (literally) a golf club the golfer needs to physically lever the golf club by applying side force to the grip (shaft) in the direction of the target. This is often considered to be a 'hitting' protocol in lieu of 'swinging', and many conditions of the two methods are not at all compatible - yet most amateur golfers try to incorporate elements of both into their poor attempt to make their golf clubs swing. While 'swinging' also has a rotational element that is toward the target the difference between the two methods is quite distinctively different - the two methods have primary force direction [intent] that is ~90° divergent. One (hitting) is to purposely and physically drive the golf club (and clubhead) using a lot of side force on the grip (shaft) to move the club and clubhead sideways in the direction of the target...and of course the golfer also turns or rotates hard through impact as well. The other (swinging) is just the opposite in making sure there is no side force on the grip (shaft) but instead there is a pulling force (longitudinally) on the clubshaft as it is moved in an arc...and of course the golfer also turns or rotates hard through impact as well. The two methods (hitting vs. swinging) are 90° adverse to one another.

 

Most amateur golfers believe they should apply side force to the grip (shaft) because the club's shaft is practically rigid, and they apply this side force primarily with their hands. As Dan Martin explains in one of his videos, he likes to think of the torso and arms actually swinging 'the hands' along with the golf club - taking the hands (and wrists) out of the equation so they do not interfere and incorrectly try to apply unwanted side force. If the golf club's shaft was made of something very flexible (e.g. rope, wire, chain, etc.) learning to 'swing' a golf club would actually be much easier. That can be seen in how trick shot artists are able to use golf clubs with rubber hoses or ropes as shafts, and how the Medicus golf training clubs with hinges in the shafts are able to be used effectively when the golfer knows how to 'swing' a golf club. The problem most all amateur golfers face is not actually understanding what they need to do - because in most cases they are not taught what to do. It is my opinion that far too much focus is on body parts and positions that are not even remotely where the attention really needs to be.    

 

If the golfer cannot figure out on his own, or is not taught via lessons, the simple difference between applying side pressure to the shaft versus pulling the shaft longitudinally, then that golfer will likely always struggle to find an effective golf swing because they are mixing elements of two very different (~90° conflicting) protocols.       

 

               

Edited October 1, 2020 by Nail_It

[KMeloney]

When folks speak (negatively) about "dragging the handle," are they talking about the action of moving the handle in a way that drives the very butt-end of the grip forward, or applying side-pressure to the handle (or... something else)? 

[GreatStrike]

On 10/2/2020 at 8:38 AM, KMeloney said:

When folks speak (negatively) about "dragging the handle," are they talking about the action of moving the handle in a way that drives the very butt-end of the grip forward, or applying side-pressure to the handle (or... something else)? 

 

Good question! 👍

 

When someone refers to 'handle dragging' it is my opinion they are talking about [both] pulling and pushing the upper end of the golf club (handle - grip end) through the impact zone toward the target while leaving the lower end of the golf club lagging behind - not to be confused with the positive term 'swing lag'. When a golfer drags the handle through the impact zone the business end of his club - the clubhead - is lacking in both speed and control. 

 

Your question is actually quite pertinent to the most recent discussion about how a golfer that 'swings' the club pulls longitudinally (in-line with the clubshaft) on the golf club versus physically levering or pushing on the side of the golf club's handle (grip) like a hitter does. That said, it is clear that the only way a golfer can 'handle drag' is if he is applying pressure to the side of the handle (grip) with his hands. The reason I think this is the case is because while there is a strong rotational component in all sound golf swings (both hitters and swingers) this rotation comes from the body-center, not from the arms and hands - therefore body rotation is not going to cause handle dragging. In my opinion 'handle dragging' is caused entirely by overactive arms and hands trying to swing move the golf club toward the target. This is almost exclusively a problem seen with a hitter's action because his forearms, wrists and hands are very active in driving (forcing) the club through impact whereas a swinger of the golf club keys more on passive or inactive forearms, wrists and hands. The hitter uses leverage to bend the shaft on the ball whereas the swinger seeks to prevent any bending of the shaft by making a smooth and deliberate effort to pull lengthwise on the shaft. The typical amateur golfer uses a lot of leverage but tries to swing! In most cases the reason that typical amateur golfers do both is because they don't know any better - not because they are unable to do just one or the other. Our golf swings reflect what we believe, and that's where our incorrect concepts gets us in trouble.               

 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Nail_It

[GreatStrike]

On 10/2/2020 at 9:31 AM, Nail_It said:

The hitter uses leverage to bend the shaft on the ball whereas the swinger seeks to prevent any bending of the shaft by making a smooth and deliberate effort to pull lengthwise on the shaft. The typical amateur golfer uses a lot of leverage but tries to swing! In most cases the reason that typical amateur golfers do both is because they don't know any better - not because they are unable to do just one or the other. 

 

 

I felt the comment I made in my previous post (quoted in bold above) needed further comment to clear up possible complexities.

 

I said; "The hitter uses leverage to bend the shaft on the ball..." More specifically I meant that the hitter has the 'intention' (by means of his brute strength, brawn and grit) to physically muscle the golf club using leverage and drive it into the golf ball. Oftentimes the hitter has the mental image or concept or belief that he can (or is able to) retain the backward bend in his clubshaft during the downswing due to his physical prowess...and thus he thinks he can (or should be able to) 'bend the shaft on the ball'. In swinging leveraging the golf club this way he actually fights off centrifugal (centripetal) force (which a swinger uses to his advantage with his swing) and instead uses his strength to literally manhandle the golf club, which includes physically holding the [so-called] 'lag angle' between his lead forearm and the golf club until he purposely releases the angle and then physically drives or pushes the clubhead through impact to hit the golf ball. In my opinion that's a lot to unpack in a golf swing - and even more difficult to correctly time! 

 

I'm not suggesting that a hitter doesn't have some 'swing' in his golf swing. There is a significant degree of 'swinging' (centrifugal - centripetal) force in the hitter's move, but nothing like what the swinger of the golf club uses to his advantage with his golf swing. The hitter resembles more of a lumberjack's move when he swings his axe to chop down a tree - there is some 'swing' but there is a whole lot of leverage or muscular force. Hopefully that clears things up a little.

 

As for 'lag', I personally do not think a hitter feels 'lag' in his swing...or at least he doesn't feel 'lag' the way a swinger (literally 'swinging' the golf club) feels it. The reason I believe a hitter doesn't feel lag is because the hitter intentionally physically holds or maintains body positions during his downswing (e.g. upper arms, elbows, forearms, wrists). He also physically holds or maintains the golf club to retain the [so-called] 'lag angle' - the angle he creates between his lead arm and the clubshaft. Then at the appropriate time he 'lets go' or releases these positions (he has intentionally been holding) at what he thinks are the correct time points...and then the hitter goes from his holding mode to abruptly and forcefully his driving force mode. Not only is that a whole lot of physical work, but the timing is critical because the holding and then driving action is not a natural process. Most golfers are simply not strong or powerful enough to make hitting worthwhile...yet practically all adult males give it a try, and most keep trying to make it work all their golfing lives. If they do make it work to some satisfactory result when they are young, strong and fast - it always goes away quickly as they age...unlike their golfing friends who learned to 'swing' the golf club.   

 

In my view the feeling of 'lag' happens when a load (weight) is moving in a 'free-flowing' unrestricted circular arc as the load (weight) actually lags to some extent behind the driving force. Considering the fact that a hitter uses a lot of arm/wrist/hand strength to power or drive his golf club through impact a large portion of his driving force component is far away from his body-center; the body-center being where the rotational driving force originates. Like a shaft on a motor or the axle on a vehicle, it drives the load - and the load lags behind the driving force (e.g. shaft, axle) until (and only until) it 'comes up to speed' and matches the same rpm speed as the driving force (e.g. shaft axle), then lag disappears...and the rest of the way it is in cruise mode - or the golfer 'rides it out' as Dan Martin states in his video. I believe this is why golfers with sound golf swings feel lag only during the mid portion of their downswing (when the club is actually slightly lagging behind in body's rotational rpm speed) and then suddenly lag disappears and impact has occurred in a flash before you even know it. This is unlike what a hitter feels because the hitter must physically square the clubface and must still be driving hard post-impact. It is my opinion that a hitter simply cannot feel lag (or at least not like a swinger feels lag) because so much of his golf swing protocol is first holding/retaining/maintaining positions and then reversing that procedure to suddenly needing to drive those loads through impact, not with his body-center rotation but instead with his appendages (arms/wrists/hands).

 

Lastly, the typical amateur golfer disastrously uses a lot of hitting action when they try to swing a golf club, and since hitting and swinging protocols are mostly mutually exclusive it just doesn't work out well at all. It's kinda like swinging a weight around on the end of a string (swinging) and then trying to grab ahold of the string at the midway point to try to force the weight (hitting) to go faster. That is the perfect scenario for an orbiting weight to suddenly become discombobulated and cause a catastrophic failure.  

                                      

Edited October 5, 2020 by Nail_It

[GreatStrike]

I've been asked to explain how a golfer can best learn to swing (literally 'swing') a golf club. Before I begin I want to state that in my opinion a 'swinging' golf swing is much, much better than a 'hitting' golf swing, and a 'swinging' golf swing is actually much easier to learn even though most male adults typically try to both 'hit' and 'swing' at the same time all throughout their golfing lives. Also, I highly encourage you to watch the Dan Martin videos about 'swinging' vs. 'leveraging' that I posted above. Those videos are some of the best videos explaining what the goal is in learning to 'swing' a golf club.

 

A couple of things before I get started. When young children take up the game of golf they intuitively (naturally) learn to 'swing' the golf club. The reason why children learn to swing versus hit (hitting is leveraging) is because they don't have the strength to leverage the golf club. This also applies to most female golfers regardless of age. If you prefer a golf swing that is easy on the body and does not wither away as quickly with age, then a 'swinging' golf swing is what you want to learn. Lastly, in my opinion a 'swinging' golf swing is far easier to learn (than most people believe) and it naturally makes your body sequence correctly. 

 

There are really only a handful of things to remember and key on when first learning a 'swinging' golf swing (in no time they all will become instinctive): 

• Use minimal pulling force on the golf club that is directly in-line (lengthwise or longitudinally) with the clubshaft with no side forces

• The pulling force from the top must be smooth (think slow) and deliberate (not aggressive) as you pull on the grip in the exact direction the clubshaft is pointed

• Realize that the butt of the club will start moving in a circular arc as it starts its downward travel from the top  

• At the top of the backswing it is not necessary for the clubshaft to become parallel to the ground (P4) and likely it's best that it is not parallel 

• Point the clubshaft at, or slightly parallel left, of the target (for right hand swing) 

• Slow and deliberate pulling force from the top is key - Pulling in the exact direction the clubshaft is pointing is key - It's easier when the shaft is not parallel 

• Refrain from starting the downswing forcefully, aggressively, abruptly, quickly, jerky, hastily, hurriedly, rushed 

 

Apart from the above shortlist I've put together some written dissertation that should help (along with the Dan Martin videos) even further:

 

How not to cast: If the golfer starts the downswing with a very assertive pulling force exerted at the level of the left wrist from the very top of the swing, and he moves his left wrist down to the ball in a wide fast-moving sweeping circular arc, then the club will start to release immediately. Once the club starts to release it cannot be held back. This early release (from the very start of the downswing) causes clubhead throwaway (i.e. casting). In other words, the early release is due to an over-acceleration of the hands at the very start of the downswing combined with a circular pattern of the movement. This must be prevented, and it is easy to prevent — the way to prevent it from happening is to start the downswing slowly, smoothly and deliberately, focusing on making sure the pulling force is exactly in-line lengthwise with the clubshaft.

 

How to get a late release: To achieve a later release the golfer needs to not exert too much pulling force at the level of the left wrist in the early downswing and let the left wrist move in a more straight line direction during the early-mid downswing. This ensures that maximum left arm/hand speed occurs at the time point when the left wrist naturally, automatically and abruptly changes direction (changing direction to a more circular motion with a small radius or tight curve) during the later mid-downswing.

 

How the clubhead naturally accelerates: In the centrifugal force golf swing (a 'swinging' golf swing), clubhead acceleration is achieved by a smooth and deliberate yet very minimal pulling force on the grip end of the golf club in the exact same lengthwise direction as the clubshaft points. This pulling force must not be applied quickly or aggressively at the start of the downswing, otherwise it will cause casting. As the clubshaft accelerates smoothly lengthwise (with longitudinal acceleration) this longitudinal motion is maintained until the clubhead gets outside (P6) a perpendicular line of the shaft with the ground. Once the clubhead gets outside this line, centrifugal force takes over quickly and leads the clubhead into impact with the golf ball. This longitudinal acceleration happens automatically and rapidly and the clubhead suddenly gains speed very quickly as it moves downward, outward and forward through impact with the golf ball. With a sound golf grip and only enough tension to maintain golf club control there is absolutely no manipulation necessary to square the clubface, or to speed-up the clubhead or to do anything else.

 

Why it might be best not to have the clubshaft parallel at the top: When learning a 'swinging' golf swing the golfer must key on the fact that the butt of the club will start moving in a circular arc as it starts its downward travel from the top. It will likely be easier to embrace this, and to have a mind's eye image, if the golf club does not reach parallel at the top of the backswing. The reason why is because when the golf club reaches parallel at the top, then pulling the club lengthwise (longitudinally) would require that it be pulled directly away from the target - which is not moving in a circular arc. This can create some consternation, but there's an easy remedy. The remedy is simply not to bring the golf club to parallel at the top. This prompts or induces the golfer to move the butt of the club in a circular arc as he starts down while pulling lengthwise on the clubshaft without applying any side force. It also helps to start the downswing correctly with a smooth, deliberate and unrushed lengthwise pull on the clubshaft when the golfer's left wrist hinge (cocking) has only minimal cupping and remains fairly flat. When the gentle lengthwise pull begins there will likely be a slight additional hinging or wrist cocking.           

 

 

Before wrapping up here's a little story about a golfer that accidently stumbled upon learning how to make a 'swinging' golf swing:

The golfer has hit his golf ball close to a tree which restricted his backswing a little. The tree was located off his left side and slightly to his rear where his clubhead could hit the tree if he made a full backswing. After taking a few practice swings to make sure he wouldn't hit his clubhead into the tree's trunk during his backswing he made his real swing to hit the ball, but something magically happened. When the golfer made his real golf swing to hit the ball his clubhead went back a few inches further than his practice swings and the clubhead tapped the tree trunk. When the clubhead tapped the tree trunk it made the golfer move his club differently than what he was accustomed to when making a swing. When the clubhead tapped the tree trunk it caused him to pull on his club lengthwise instead of his usual application of strong side pressure on the grip to lever the club in the downswing. Lo-and-behold the golfer struck the best shot of his life that traveled 40 yards further than he had ever hit that club, and the ball flight was like a tour pro had hit it with a soft draw. What the startled golfer had done was to [accidentally] start his downswing with a gentle pull in the same direction as his clubshaft and just let the butt of the club follow the circular arc downward - and then physics effectively took care of the rest. It was a mystery to this golfer just how and why this unintended mishap golf swing produced such a fantastic result. Reflecting back on what took place, and with the help of his experienced seasoned golf instructor, it was quickly figured out what he did that resulted in him stumbling into his amazing 'accidental' golf swing. The golfer didn't waste any time in changing his golf swing to a 'singing' golf swing which dropped his handicap double-digits practically overnight.        

 

One of the characteristics of a 'swinging' golf swing (as opposed to hitting) is how once the golfer deals with starting his downswing his work is basically finished when his lead arm approaches P5 (parallel to the ground). That's not much travel distance between the time point when you start the downswing and when you turn it over to physics to take it the rest of the way. As Dan Martin states in one of his videos - once the downswing gets going it's soon time to 'let it ride'. Experiencing what happens around mid-downswing through impact is actually quite phenomenal. It's so miraculous that even experiencing it a gazillion times, it is still amazing. It's like your golf swing goes into automatic ultra insane mode at a particular point and something out-of-this-world takes over control. Hitting, on the other hand, is quite the opposite experience - requiring a very physical effort the entire way to drive the golf club through impact.                

 

When a golfer swings the golf club with a 'singing' golf swing his/her body takes on its naturally correct God-given sequence of motion (kinematic sequence). Hitters often have difficulty with their weight shift, balance, pivot, shoulder rotation, arm/elbow position, etc., etc. that golfers with a 'swinging' golf swing just don't have. Learning a 'swinging' golf swing will almost certainly correct those issues once and for all without even thinking about it. Once you learn to 'swing' the golf club without the muscular manipulation that 'hitting' encompasses the golf swing develops a wonderful life of its own. The golfer quickly discovers that he is easily able to strike 100 shots in a row and only slightly miss a few. The golfer also quickly discovers that he can control and replicate distances within a few yards, and his dispersion narrows spectacularly.   

 

I hope this is enlightening to others and helps those seeking to improve...   

  

Edited October 6, 2020 by Nail_It

[KMeloney]

Nail_It -- Are you familiar with this video from Bradley Hughes? 

 

 

 

In my mind, this goes hand-in-hand with what you've written above about "swinging" [properly] -- but I'm interested to know if you agree with that. Seems to me that the hand path causes the release (in the video above), and there's no pressure on the side of the grip per se. 

 

Thoughts? 

[GreatStrike]

10 hours ago, KMeloney said:

Nail_It -- Are you familiar with this video from Bradley Hughes? 

 

In my mind, this goes hand-in-hand with what you've written above about "swinging" [properly] -- but I'm interested to know if you agree with that. Seems to me that the hand path causes the release (in the video above), and there's no pressure on the side of the grip per se. 

 

Thoughts? 

 

Bradley might be touching vaguely on the periphery of what I've written about (i.e. a 'swinging' swing), but it's unclear at best and not on-point at all to what I have posted about. 

 

I think Bradley's video was likely to help golfers that get all tensed-up or have the belief that they should keep their upper arms and elbows really close to their body, which usually restricts their arm swing - even in a hitter. That almost always causes the golfer to muscle the club using manipulative arm and hand force instead of 'swinging' the club.

 

For what it's worth, when you see someone putting something under their armpits, or stuffing something in their armpits, or using straps around their arms, they are usually wanting to promote more of a purpose-driven body rotation type swing, which is a hitters swing. Swingers don't need to do that...and they don't want to do that. Trying to incorporate a purpose-driven body rotation in a 'swinging' golf swing is like having two sources of power coming from different directions (e.g. weight swinging on the end of a string and then grabbing the middle of the string trying to add additional speed). Also, in a 'swinging' swing I think the body tends to react and sequence much more naturally, whereas a hitter tends to need to put, place or hold various parts of his body into positions, which is not as natural.            

 

Bradley is a proponent of 'hitting' in lieu of 'swinging'. When you are a hitter you are far more likely to purposely move body parts into certain positions, unlike a swinger. Swingers are free-flowing (e.g. swinging a weight on the end of a string) whereas hitters are manipulators (e.g. lumberjacks swinging an axe). 

 

For your information Bradley Hughes is/was a protégé of John 'Lag' Erickson (a.k.a. 'Lag Pressure') who ran a website called Advanced Ball Striking, which strongly favored a 'hitting' style golf swing he tried to capitalize on through his website. He (Erickson), who played a few years on the Canadian Tour, created a legend of himself as a great ball striker on the likes of Ben Hogan, and Bradley Hughes endorsed his teachings and helped Erickson with his website forum using the profile name 'twomasters' derived from his two Australian Masters wins. 'Lag' claimed that with his hitting technique (he was a 'swinger' of the golf club when on tour) he could retain the bent-back condition in his clubshaft all the way through impact, thus the nickname 'Lag Pressure'. He sold teaching/training 'modules' to his students that sought to swing like him. Lag's students and followers fell-off sharply over time because his technique and training materials just didn't prove to satisfy many people or work out for them. I don't think there is much interest anymore in what he offered. I have not heard his name mentioned in many years.  

 

The Dan Martin videos are spot-on when it comes to explaining what the golfer needs to do when 'swinging' a golf club.  

      

Edited October 7, 2020 by Nail_It

[KMeloney]

Thank you.

[Nard_S]

Bradley is a proponent of 'hitting' in lieu of 'swinging'. When you are a hitter you are far more likely to purposely move body parts into certain positions, unlike a swinger. Swingers are free-flowing (e.g. swinging a weight on the end of a string) whereas hitters are manipulators (e.g. lumberjacks swinging an axe). -Nail_It

 

Throwing arms out and in front has little to do with either being a swinger or a hitter. Both swing types can screw all that up. Also the wisdom & advice to pull on club "along the shaft" is something that applies to "hitters" as well. Getting the trail arm straightened is a key move to proper shallowing of club. By pulling along shaft line you invariably straighten trail arm.

 

Hitters get hand speed up, faster & sooner than swingers. Swingers hit peak in a more gradual, progressive way. The difference is in the application of acceleration. Early peak (Nick Price) or late peak (Ernie Els) and in some cases dual (Greg Norman) are generally how it breaks down.. I'm dating myself with those examples, lol, but if you look at more modern players it still holds true and they really are not looking all that different at key positions. The cocktail & amplitude of movements may vary but a guy like Louis O. still fires his arms out front a lot faster than one might think.