Do you throw or twist?

[GreatStrike]

On 4/20/2021 at 3:54 PM, elcgolf said:

...this is a fantastic thread. It got me to purchase a Pro, and I absolutely love it! One thing that I'm struggling to untangle is whether you advocate starting the swing with the arms or legs (ground forces). In some of your videos, like Power Pivot, it seems like you're advocating using ground forces to start the swing, but in others, it seems like you're suggesting starting with the arms pulling toward the target line. Sorry if you've already covered this but do you advocate for one over the other? Or, more basically, when using the Pro, should I focus on starting with the arms, or using ground forces? Or if it's both, is there a drill for that? Thanks.

 

I think I can answer your question. To use The Pro training device correctly the grip and rope should form a straight line throughout the downswing. This is how you should treat the clubshaft - as if the shaft was a flexible rope. To accomplish that you must pull on the training device or the clubshaft with your hand. Consider it to be a 'Hands Controlled Pivot'. That intent to pull on the clubshaft will likely cause the lower body to move ahead of or before the hand even moves the clubshaft. That is typical for a lot of athletic actions - such as throwing a football or baseball.

 

The Dan Martin videos should be very helpful to understand how to 'swing' The Pro training device and a golf club.   

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[GreatStrike]

Jim R. has PM'd me and wants to know what the difference is between the Dan Martin ‘pure swing’ golf swing in which the golfer pulls inline (longitudinally) on the clubshaft and the Cp (centripetal) golf swing that in particular uses a ‘hands controlled pivot’ and ‘swinging left’.

 

It should be noted that both of these golf swings are ‘swinging’ golf swings as opposed to a hitting style golf swing in which the golfer moves the golf club like a lumberjack by applying muscular force to the side of the clubshaft and uses the clubshaft as a rigid device to lever the clubhead at the ball. The Dan Martin golf swing is the purest ‘swinging’ action golf swing, but the Cp (centripetal) golf swing captures the same circular motion. Both of these ‘swings’ encompasses the use of circular motion and transfer of energy into and down the shaft...and would fire a marble down and out the end of the shaft - unlike a hitting type golf swing in which the golfer uses the clubshaft like a rigid device to drive the clubhead sideways along the target line toward the target.   

    

The Dan Martin ‘pure swing’ golf swing gets the ‘swing' started from the get-go at the very beginning of the downswing. This golfer will likely have a fuller backswing that reaches a clubshaft parallel to the ground position at the top, or close to it. This golfer will distinctly pull on the clubshaft inline (longitudinally) away from the target to ‘stretch the shaft’ as if he was getting a weight on the end of a string started swinging around in a circle. This golfer will have a wide hand path circular arc in his downswing. This golfer will do his best to not apply any side force to the handle/grip of the club and pull on the clubshaft telescopically throughout the first half of the downswing until the P6 position where he will 'let it ride'. This golfer will only focus on how he moves his clubshaft from the very beginning of the downswing down to around the P6 position where his effort and attention is turned-over to the club’s momentum that takes place from the P6 position thereon to the follow-through without any further action from the golfer except to just hold onto the club.

 

The Cp (centripetal) golf swing that uses a ‘hands controlled pivot’ and the ‘swinging left’ activity will likely have a shorter backswing, not reaching a parallel clubshaft at the top. This golfer will focus on his hand path forming a semi-circle out in front of him which assures that his clubhead path also follows a circular arc through the impact zone. This golfer pinpoints his attention on his hand path traveling in a semi-circle through the impact zone and thus allows his hand path to fully control the path of his clubhead. This golfer is all about making sure his hand path and clubhead travels in a semi-circle or circular arc at impact with the golf ball and that it continues in this circular arc post impact. When this golfer reaches the P6 position in his downswing his work is just beginning (unlike the Dan Martin golf swing where at P6 the golfer ‘lets it ride’). At around P6.1 when this golfer’s hand path is traveling its circular arc the wrist c0ck starts to release and the swing’s momentum creates a strong outward-inward pulling centripetal force. This is the point where this golfer eagerly embraces this strong centripetal force he feels and he makes absolutely sure that his hand path ‘continues’ in its circular arc – this prevents his arms from moving out and away from his body and thus his hand path and clubhead also moving straight out toward the target (which is what happens with the Cf golf swing). Also, early in the release phase this golfer not only maintains his hand path moving in a circular arc (unlike the Cf golf swing) but he intentionally pulls his hand path sharply left (a.k.a. ‘swinging left’ or ‘exit left’) to actually make his hand path suddenly travel in a smaller radius, which in-turn increases the strong outward-inward centripetal force that he feels even more...and as a by-product of this action a lot of very favorable conditions occur - increased the clubhead speed, helps stabilize and square the clubface and promotes golfer controlled shaft lean.

 

Jim, I hope this helps differentiate the two golf swings in terms of what the golfer is focusing on doing when making his golf swing.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Nail_It

[GreatStrike]

Should You be Swinging Left or Down the Target Line?

As a P.G.A coach with 20 years experience a common fault I see every day when coaching both elite players & beginners is they swing down the target line instead of back inside the target line, some players refer to it as 'Exit Left' or 'Swinging Left'. You will notice this movement with tour players and in the example picture on the right.

 

For an elite player, swinging down the target line will cause you to hit it to the right so you then have to compensate and over rotate your hands to try and square up the face, as you can see in the picture on the left, so then you hit it left, so this leads to unpredictable results. If your timing is right you might get away with it, but it is the main reason why the ball won't go where you want it to go.

 

For beginners & intermediate players swinging down the target line will cause you to chicken wing, disconnecting the arms from the body resulting in poor contact and loss of power & control.

 

 

The fact is, if you are a good player, you are better at compensating and getting away with it every time you play because you can still score well and your swing is fairly good, quite often though you hit the ball on the flag but deep down you know you made a compensation because you felt it, so you where lucky that time!

 

As for the beginner/intermediate player you are not so good at getting away with it, that is why you don't score very well and never improve. It amazes me the length of time people have played golf for 10, 20 or 30+ years and still of a 28 handicap! The fact is that whatever you level you are probably making some compensations in your swing.

 

Reference: https://www.gforcegolf.com/blogs/news/83583297-should-you-be-swinging-left-or-down-the-target-line

 

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Nail_It

[b.mattay]

Really depends. I'm been researching some Scott Cowx stuff lately and am trying to move more towards the throw type release (he calls it Option B or "Cobra Pattern") with the long clubs. Still keeping the twist release (he calls it Option A or "Turn-Down") pattern for the inside 150 game. 

[PracticeSwinger]

43 minutes ago, b.mattay said:

Really depends. I'm been researching some Scott Cowx stuff lately and am trying to move more towards the throw type release (he calls it Option B or "Cobra Pattern") with the long clubs. Still keeping the twist release (he calls it Option A or "Turn-Down") pattern for the inside 150 game. 

Really a good idea I would think (goal being a more stable face in the impact area with longer clubs; less lead arm rotation) - and let me know the feel you have if you're able to 'go Cobra' ala Hovland; what combo of grip (both hands) / minimal forearm rotation / early trail wrist 'complete' extension (resulting in what appears to be across the line getting to the top) and then lead wirst flexing at the top... always think I'm able to achieve it but when looking back at videos, something is always off... not as easy as it seems (for me anyway!)

[b.mattay]

34 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

Really a good idea I would think (goal being a more stable face in the impact area with longer clubs; less lead arm rotation) - and let me know the feel you have if you're able to 'go Cobra' ala Hovland; what combo of grip (both hands) / minimal forearm rotation / early trail wrist 'complete' extension (resulting in what appears to be across the line getting to the top) and then lead wirst flexing at the top... always think I'm able to achieve it but when looking back at videos, something is always off... not as easy as it seems (for me anyway!)

Yup it is certainly difficult, will probably never look like Hovy. Looking to do more of a "baby cobra" haha and move the ball flight away from a draw bias. I do find the "hell drill" is very nice for promoting trail wrist extension and left wrist flexion. 

[PracticeSwinger]

35 minutes ago, b.mattay said:

Yup it is certainly difficult, will probably never look like Hovy. Looking to do more of a "baby cobra" haha and move the ball flight away from a draw bias. I do find the "hell drill" is very nice for promoting trail wrist extension and left wrist flexion. 

Interesting!... only trail hand or with both hands 'open flat'?

[GreatStrike]

 

3 hours ago, b.mattay said:

Really depends. I'm been researching some Scott Cowx stuff lately and am trying to move more towards the throw type release (he calls it Option B or "Cobra Pattern") with the long clubs. Still keeping the twist release (he calls it Option A or "Turn-Down") pattern for the inside 150 game. 

 

2 hours ago, b.mattay said:

Yup it is certainly difficult, will probably never look like Hovy. Looking to do more of a "baby cobra" haha and move the ball flight away from a draw bias. I do find the "hell drill" is very nice for promoting trail wrist extension and left wrist flexion. 

 

Being a +2 golfer I'm surprised that you would risk trying to change your natural or signature wrist action. 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Nail_It

[b.mattay]

1 hour ago, MtlJayMan said:

Interesting!... only trail hand or with both hands 'open flat'?

Trail hand only haha! Gotta hang onto the club somehow🤣. 

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by b.mattay

[b.mattay]

1 hour ago, Nail_It said:

 

 

 

Being a +2 golfer I'm surprised that you would risk trying to change your natural or signature wrist action. 

 

 

Always trying to get better at this game! Would love to get to +4ish and win some bigger regional tournaments. 

 

Additionally, I go through a stretch every summer where I'll be sub-70 for like 6-7 rounds in a row. In these stretches, I just don't ever hit hooks with driver/3w/long irons (which is my miss the other 85-90% of the time). I videoed my swing during one of these stretches last year and I definitely have more left wrist flexion and less forearm roll than a typical swing.

Edited April 22, 2021 by b.mattay

[GreatStrike]

2 hours ago, b.mattay said:

Always trying to get better at this game! Would love to get to +4ish and win some bigger regional tournaments. 

 

Additionally, I go through a stretch every summer where I'll be sub-70 for like 6-7 rounds in a row. In these stretches, I just don't ever hit hooks with driver/3w/long irons (which is my miss the other 85-90% of the time). I videoed my swing during one of these stretches last year and I definitely have more left wrist flexion and less forearm roll than a typical swing.

 

I understand, but I would be very cautious about going through the effort and repetition of trying to adopt a change that might not work out and then having a problem getting back to what you had. This sort of thing happens all the time - Ian Baker-Finch and Yani Tseng are good examples of tour pros (and there are hundreds) that never recovered from trying to make changes to their already outstanding golf swings.

 

    

Edited April 23, 2021 by Nail_It

[GreatStrike]

6 hours ago, b.mattay said:

Really depends. I'm been researching some Scott Cowx stuff lately and am trying to move more towards the throw type release (he calls it Option B or "Cobra Pattern") with the long clubs. Still keeping the twist release (he calls it Option A or "Turn-Down") pattern for the inside 150 game. 

 

When Scott Cowx (or anyone for that matter) uses something like the HackMotion Wrist Sensor Analyzer how does he know what is actually causing the golfer's wrist action - for example 'lead wrist flexion'? The reason why a golfer's lead wrist might move into [say] the old school terminology 'knuckle down' flex/bow condition could be for a number of different reasons - the golfer purposely uses his forearm/finger muscles to flex or bow his wrist at a particular time point in the downswing, the golfer's body rotation momentum causes the lead wrist to flex/bow as it drags the clubhead in a circular arc, or the golfer purposely 'swings left' or 'exits left' which in-turn causes the lead wrist to flex/bow.

 

The 'how' and 'why' the lead wrist gets into certain positions are really never talked about by Scott Cowx (at least I've never heard it being discussed with any certainty as to how he knows for sure) - only that so-and-so tour pro's lead wrist does this-of-that. The HackMotion Wrist Analyzer can only determine what the wrist does - but not 'how' or 'why' it came to be in that position.

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[b.mattay]

4 hours ago, Nail_It said:

 

When Scott Cowx (or anyone for that matter) uses something like the HackMotion Wrist Sensor Analyzer how does he know what is actually causing the golfer's wrist action - for example 'lead wrist flexion'? The reason why a golfer's lead wrist might move into [say] the old school terminology 'knuckle down' flex/bow condition could be for a number of different reasons - the golfer purposely uses his forearm/finger muscles to flex or bow his wrist at a particular time point in the downswing, the golfer's body rotation momentum causes the lead wrist to flex/bow as it drags the clubhead in a circular arc, or the golfer purposely 'swings left' or 'exits left' which in-turn causes the lead wrist to flex/bow.

 

The 'how' and 'why' the lead wrist gets into certain positions are really never talked about by Scott Cowx (at least I've never heard it being discussed with any certainty as to how he knows for sure) - only that so-and-so tour pro's lead wrist does this-of-that. The HackMotion Wrist Analyzer can only determine what the wrist does - but not 'how' or 'why' it came to be in that position.

 

 

 

While it is certainly a complex matter. I posit you can consciously create/manipulate movements in the backswing/very early transition. After that, things are a reaction to put the clubface on the ball

[GreatStrike]

14 hours ago, b.mattay said:

While it is certainly a complex matter. I posit you can consciously create/manipulate movements in the backswing/very early transition. After that, things are a reaction to put the clubface on the ball

 

It truly is a complex matter!

 

The HackMotion wearable wrist sensor motion capture device displays lead wrist movement data, but it does not actually analyze 'how' or 'why' the wrist movement happened - or in other words, 'how' or 'why' the wrist movement did what it did. Much like MRI and X-ray imaging creates a picture for reviewing, it takes a trained expert to analyze that data. But in the case of a golfer's lead wrist movement data the expert must be able to [also] determine 'how' and 'why' it happened!  

 

The explanation of 'how' and 'why' a golfer's lead wrist movement happened is the most important piece of information. The data is totally meaningless unless the expert can determine with absolute certainty 'how' and 'why' the golfer's lead wrist movement happened. Did the lead wrist motion happen because the golfer purposely used his forearm and finger muscles to make his lead wrist move a particular way at a particular time - or did his wrist move that way because his body rotation caused it to happen - or did the golfer 'swinging left' cause it to happen - and the list of possible causes goes on and on. 

 

Analyzing such data is no better than the [so-called] expert's ability to (a) read the data, (b) talk to the golfer and ask him what (if anything) he tries to do during his golf swing that would cause his wrist to make the movement seen in the data, and (c) know what golf swing related body movements creates or causes reactions that match the wrist movement seen in the data. It makes me wonder if in a lot of cases the expert (with all the data) is only guessing about the most important part - 'how' and 'why' the wrist movement happened.   

[GreatStrike]

29 minutes ago, iSwing said:

 

Measuring a how, and measuring a why, if it's even possible to measure a why, sure seems like a waste of time.  

 

Knowing 'how' or 'why' a golfer's lead wrist actually moved as it did is far more important than just measuring the movement.

 

[GreatStrike]

15 hours ago, iSwing said:

Without question. 

 

Some years ago during the telecast of a golf tournament one of the announcers (I don’t remember for sure who but I think it may have been Peter Jacobsen) made mention that a particular golfer ‘turned his knuckles down to bow his lead wrist’ as he came into impact. There was a replay of it in slow-motion for the viewers to see. A couple of weeks later this same tour player was on The Golf Channel with Peter Kessler, and Peter mentioned to the pro that one of the announcers pointed out how he ‘turned his knuckles down to bow his lead wrist’ as Peter demonstrated the move with his hands for the viewers to see. I think Peter was hoping that the tour player would elaborate on the topic to get the show started with some golf swing jargon, but instead the tour pro looked at Peter Kessler with a confused look on his face and responded in no uncertain terms with something like; “I don’t turn my knuckles down. My lead wrist bows as a result of my pivot.” For which Peter smoothly and quickly moved-on to discuss something non-swing related with the pro.

 

This was a perfect example of the announcer (a fellow tour player himself and someone that knows for a fact that some tour pros do indeed purposely turn their knuckles down to bow their lead wrist) took for granted that the tour player he put on display was doing the same thing – turning his knuckles down to bow his lead wrist. The announcer saw it clearly himself, he had slow-motion, high-definition video at his disposal. He even requested that his production crew rack-up the video and play it in slow-motion so he could briefly explain to the interested viewers what the tour player had done. But his presumption was wrong, totally wrong - as the tour player made clear to Peter Kessler. The reality is that only the tour player knew for sure ‘how’ and ‘why’ his lead wrist bowed the way it did. The data (like what the HackMotion device provides) is merely information in visible form. The most important information is learning ‘how’ and ‘why’ the wrist did what it did…and what we think is 'how' and 'why' something is done is not always correct.      

 

 

Edited April 24, 2021 by Nail_It

[GreatStrike]

Tiger says:  'Arc It Off'

 

'Swinging left' and 'exit left' are commonly used phrases to explain what the arms and golf club does through impact and early follow-through when describing the Cp (centripetal) golf swing.  Tiger Woods uses the phrase 'arc it off' to explain the same technique. If you have any doubt about whether Tiger's golf swing when working with Butch Harmon was Cf (centrifugal) or Cp (centripetal), this should answer that question. Tiger says a golf swing is made on an arc - and he wants to keep it on an arc! To keep the golf swing on an arc you must 'arc it off', otherwise the arms/hand and clubhead move straight out toward the target. The 'arc it off' technique is used by Tiger to this day. 

 

 

[berndgeurts]

Malaska just posted a video about it. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j3p5dChQgA

[GreatStrike]

Transfer of energy - it probably happens differently than what you thought...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[trilerian]

I was experimenting on the range last night (what else is the range for?) and I was trying to pay attention to the "twist the pickle jar lid" and where it happens.  Interestingly enough for me, this doesn't happen until after impact, this is what seems to happen to twist the club back up.  It was more pronounced on my irons, I couldn't really get the feel with my driver, but I'll keep trying it.  

[GreatStrike]

On 5/7/2021 at 8:46 AM, trilerian said:

I was experimenting on the range last night (what else is the range for?) and I was trying to pay attention to the "twist the pickle jar lid" and where it happens.  Interestingly enough for me, this doesn't happen until after impact, this is what seems to happen to twist the club back up.  It was more pronounced on my irons, I couldn't really get the feel with my driver, but I'll keep trying it.  

 

@trilerian You didn't ask a question about the 'twist the pickle jar lid' technique so I am not going to comment about it. You are probably much better served learning to 'release' the club properly, then experimenting with something like 'twist the pickle jar lid' technique later. Until you have a solid, repeatable release with every single swing there is no need jumping that far ahead. 

 

You are a 12 handicap golfer. I presume you have likely been around a 12 handicap golfer for a long time. In other words you (like most amateurs) probably have reached a plateau with your golf swing. With the rare 'where the hell did that come from' swing where your ball flew like few others you've ever hit...and looked more like a tour pro struck it, I'm guessing your golf swing hasn't really changed all that much over the years. Sure, some days are better than others, but no days are like you really know deep-down you should be able to hit the ball. You have wondered more than once what the secret is - why you can't figure out the mystery.

 

You want to be able to go to the range and hit every club in your bag - and hit 68 out of 75 range balls solidly with maximum smash factor and a penetrating ball flight - and out of the ones you don't hit solidly you only miss a little...with maybe three two really bad misses because you failed to follow your own swing playbook. You want to be able to take that wonderful golf swing, and take that high level confidence to the golf course too. You want to know (I mean really know), without any doubt whatsoever, that whatever the case - whenever or wherever you may be - that you will have extreme confidence ('chomping at the bit' confidence) that you will make sound golf swings...one after another after another. You want to know that if your short game is decent and you have good course management, that under normal circumstances you will shoot in the 70s and around par is not out of the question. Does that sound good? You have probably never experienced that degree of confidence, or knowing that you own a golf swing that takes you to shooting in the 70s on a consistent basis. 

 

I have never seen you swing a golf club, but I have seen plenty of 12 handicap golfers. Some of them have had outstanding short games around the green that allowed them to achieve their 12 handicap level...and a few of them have had miserable short games to go with a decent golf swing, but that's not very common.

 

Every 12 handicap (and above) golfer I have ever seen did not understand how to release. Without fail the ones that actually learned how to 'release' made advancements in their game by leaps and bounds. Also, without fail the ones that actually learned to properly 'release' did so not by learning some of the more strange techniques (Shawn Clement's 'Baton Twirl', Mike Malaska's 'Move', Brian Manzella's 'Alpha-Beta-Gamma Forces', Square-to-Square, etc.), instead they learned the release that most all expert golfers use...and that release is not the Roll Release, which is what most all handicap amateur golfers try to use. Some may refer to the Roll Release as a Cf (centrifugal) release, or what most amateur golfers envision as what virtually all the pros and the scratch players use. That is not correct! Most pros and expert amateur golfers use a release that is actually fairly easy to learn. It's just that most handicap amateurs can't comprehend it until they can experience it themselves on a somewhat repetitive basis. And to be very honest, some learn how to do it, but they do not understand how the hell it works! 

 

Much of what you have read in the first half of this thread is hodge-podge - while everything I have posted has some degree of value it is not what a 12 handicap golfer like yourself should necessarily be trying to incorporate into their golf swing that I'm quite sure lacks the most essential and important element of all - which is the most common 'release' used by tour pros and expert amateur golfers. Without a sound release you'll never play your best - you can't! 

 

I don't really care too much how you setup and address the ball, how you tilt your torso, or where your trail elbow is at some point in the downswing. I just want you to be cognizant of the things I list and I want you to focus on the few things I want you to incorporate into your golf swing:

 

The three (3) things I want you to incorporate into your golf swing:

► Your hand path moves on a semi-circle or arc so the backswing starts back with your hands moving in an arc. Just getting it started moving in an arc is usually all that is necessary. 

► As your downswing approaches P6 it is your body's pivot or rotation that is totally responsible for what is often referred to as 'swinging left' or 'exit left' or 'arc it off' or a Cp (centripetal force) swing. This means that your downswing pivot is in charge of whipping your hands left (not out toward the target) through the impact zone. Here's the parts that are difficult to accept or understand (and why so few people ever learn) - when I say your pivot is in charge of whipping your hands left - I mean really left - bigtime left - like your hands over your left shoe left!!! I want you to feel that your pivot whips your hands just a few inches off the heel of your left shoe. That's right! It's not going to happen, but that is what you want to try to accomplish. When does the pivot begin whipping the hands over your left foot? Much, much earlier than you ever thought! It starts at P6. Your pivot, that you are using to move your hands to your left foot, will make the clubhead travel in a perfect semi-circular arc which will be from the inside - to the target line (ball) - and then back to the inside again.      

► Now that your pivot is really being activated and totally in-charge of whipping your hands to the left foot through the impact zone there is one other thing that you must do. You must make sure that your lead wrist does not breakdown through impact. How do you guard against that happening? By making sure that your pivot is what is moving your hands. If your pivot is weak or if your pivot stalls your lead wrist will breakdown. It's just that simple. 

* Three (3) things - that's all! *

 

Here is a list of things that I want you to be aware of about the swing: 

► Forget about the clubhead - focus on your hand path.

► It won't take more than a few swings to learn where the clubhead touches the target line where the ball sits.

► Your hand path never moves in a straight path - never! Your hand path should always travel on a semi-circular arc.

► Since your hand path moves in an semi-circular arc and moves bigtime left beginning at P6 it should never move straight out toward the target.

► Once your backswing starts back on an arc your focus needs to move to what you'll do at P6 - which is to pivot the hands to the left shoe. Don't be concerned about how far back your backswing goes, or the transition/start-down - that is all out of your focus and out of your concern. Instead, your focus should be totally and completely on pivoting at P6 to whip your hands to the heel of your left shoe.

► Don't try to make your arms move faster by attempting to make your arms move faster! That only locks up your shoulder and arm muscles. 

► Know that your lead wrist is easy to remain flat through impact when your pivot drives your arms and hands. If the pivot stalls the first thing to breakdown is the lead wrist. 

► Visualize how a Cp (centripetal force) golf swing retains the flat left wrist as the hands and handle/grip exists left (images below).

 

This should get you well on your way. Practice, practice, practice. You'll see results as soon as you put the pieces and parts together. As the essential things come together and the coordination gets better you will start seeing excellent improvement. Then, there's no limit on how perfect you can put it together on each swing for robot-like consistency. The more 'at ease' you get with more repetitions the more flexible you'll get and the more distance you'll have. If you can allow your pivot to move your arms and hands and maintain a flat left wrist through impact, then you are an excellent candidate to have a sound golf swing. 

 

I hope this helps!

 

 

            

 

 

Jon Rahm (shown below) is an example of a tour pro that uses a centripetal force golf swing (a.k.a. 'swinging left' or 'exist left') where the hand path keeps on the hand path's circular arc through impact. Jon looks like he's trying to move his hands over his left foot!  

 

    

 

 

    

 

            

 

              

Edited May 9, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[sjcc]

NI. Probably one of your best posts in this thread. Love the concept of the hand arc focus. My struggle is making sure the hands don’t go down the line to target but go left. 

[trilerian]

@Nail_It I’m a 12 index because on the golf course I fall apart, also my short game is abhorrent. In my round yesterday I had 35 putts with 7 chips and 12 pitches. Yes, that means some of my pitches didn’t make the green.  Mainly it is distance control with my short game.  Now, on the range I am a different golfer, but there is no pressure on the range. 
 

As to my swing, I don’t pay attention to my lead wrist, just slows my swing down. What I do is rotate while keeping my arms in front of me and the club head behind. And yes the club makes an arc, how can it not? Even if you try to swing straight, it won’t work.  
But regardless all I was doing was asking a question because I noticed something on the range. I noticed that my club wasn’t rehanging until well after the ball and was curious if this was the pickle jar thing. But instead of saying yes or no, you go on a rant about 12 index crappy swings.

 

So no worries, don’t answer my question, I’m done with your thread.

[GreatStrike]

59 minutes ago, iSwing said:

 

Good thoughts Nail_It, although a lengthy post many points worth examining.  

 

I believe what may be confusing, for some,  is perception driving an action, but it's a misleading perception.  For instance, an addressed clubhead is on a 'line' that's some distance from us, and at the top of the swing the clubhead is even more away from that addressed line. 

 

Perception, and this is only my uneducated guess, may trigger some part of us saying we need to get the club 'back out there' where it started, but we don't have to.  At the top we are already on the inside of the line of play, so no need for us to make sure something 'gets back out there'- it will get back 'out there' from the sequence. 

 

Several other misleading perceptions too.  

 

Very true!

 

Sorry about the lengthy post - that's my habit of attempting to make myself clear and add some character. I'd rather err on too much information versus too little - because usually too little doesn't hit home or make much sense when talking about something as complex as the release. The devil is always in the details - and with respect to the golf swing, the mysterious elements are oftentimes hidden in the details - less details equates to lots of misleading perceptions. Our golf swings reflect what we believe, and that’s where our incorrect concepts get us into trouble. 

 

I have had a couple of messages asking for 'more' detailed information about the release. In particular about the vertical component of the release, which is very interesting and a rather mysterious piece of the puzzle. I'll make a post about that later.

[elcgolf]

56 minutes ago, Nail_It said:

 

Very true!

 

Sorry about the lengthy post - that's my habit of attempting to make myself clear and add some character. I'd rather err on too much information versus too little - because usually too little doesn't hit home or make much sense when talking about something as complex as the release. The devil is always in the details - and with respect to the golf swing, the mysterious elements are oftentimes hidden in the details - less details equates to lots of misleading perceptions. Our golf swings reflect what we believe, and that’s where our incorrect concepts get us into trouble. 

 

I have had a couple of messages asking for 'more' detailed information about the release. In particular about the vertical component of the release, which is very interesting and a rather mysterious piece of the puzzle. I'll make a post about that later.

Thanks nail_it. Great content! Reading through your release post, there’s a ton of good feels to focus on; however, any drills that you could recommend?

[GreatStrike]

8 hours ago, elcgolf said:

Thanks nail_it. Great content! Reading through your release post, there’s a ton of good feels to focus on; however, any drills that you could recommend?

 

@elcgolfThanks! Here's some more that includes information you should find helpful. And a drill (video) you might like.

 

To Chris and Larry who messaged me (and anyone else) wanting additional information…

 

[This post is going to be lengthy, but it requires a goodly amount of information in order to come even remotely close to fully explaining it.]

 

The release is not easily understood. The 'how', ‘when’ and 'why' it works is a mystery to most. What is most often missing in a golfer’s repertory of knowledge is the 'down' component of the release process. The actual uncocking of the wrist is well-hidden within the release phase of the golf swing.

 

Usually handicap golfers only consider how the club moves in the horizontal dimension - which is performed in one of two ways; by either purposely moving the arms/hands horizontally toward the target (arm swing) or by using the pivot to move their arms/hands in an arc toward their left side (body swing). It's the vertical or the ‘down’ element that they don't grasp how, when or why it works.

 

The 'down' part of the release (where the wrist uncocks and the clubshaft moves vertically downward) takes place within the release phase. This ‘down’ part becomes a blend of the entire release process, however the ‘down’ part does not take place with equal timing of the horizontal part. (That is what happens when there is early extension!) In other words, the pivot takes care of the horizontal aspect of moving the clubshaft but the uncocking or vertical ‘down’ part does not begin happening at the same time. If it did, your swing would likely be described as ‘releasing early’.

 

So, how, when and why does the ‘down’ part happen in a sound golf swing? It happens either naturally or by the golfer making it happen. I know, it gets complicated! It takes some explaining to make things clear…

 

If your intent is to have your pivot move your arms/hands so they ‘swing left’ or ‘exit left’ (as recently been discussed) you don’t have to do anything to make the ‘down’ happen. The direction that your pivot moves your hands (when ‘swinging left’) will naturally cause the uncocking to take place and force the clubshaft vertically ‘down’ at the correct time. It’s just that simple! As previously stated, this ‘down’ does not begin happening at the same time as the pivot or when P6 is reached - the ‘down’ or the uncocking happens naturally as a result of the direction your hand path takes, which is moving sharply at (what feels like) the heel of your left shoe.

 

Note: If your golf swing is a Cf (centrifugal) swing, where you do not ‘swing left’, your hand path will move out toward the target, which does not bring about the natural uncocking just described.

 

The ‘why’ this happens is rather magical. Consider that at P6 your clubshaft is parallel with the ground and parallel with the target line and your hands are opposite your right thigh with your wrist cocked. (Note: If your golf swing is like most amateurs’ golf swing this position is never achieved because you would miss the golf ball - therefore you would start early extension well before P6 and of course your clubface is open and in dire need of manipulation in hopes you can square it at impact. The results are poor clubhead speed, flipping lead wrist, glancing blow with low smash factor and lots of slices, pulls and fat shots.) Anyway, back to the magical ‘why’ the uncocking (to produce the ‘down’) happens so naturally when you use the pivot to move the hand path sharply left over your left shoe. Back to the P6 position again where your clubshaft is parallel with the ground and parallel with the target line and your hands are opposite your right thigh with your wrist cocked. In slow motion from this P6 position make a pivot that moves your hands toward your left shoe. What happens? You’ll see that it naturally uncocks the wrist and drives the clubshaft vertically downward. This uncocking is caused by the direction of movement and the momentum. Now get in the same P6 position again but this time move your hands out toward the target (instead of toward your left shoe). What happens? Disaster! There is no natural uncocking! That is why forced early uncocking is needed that must begin happening well before P6, and there is no way the clubhead can ever reach the target line to run into the golf ball without early extension, and of course the clubface is wide open!

 

So, we’ve covered how, when and why the ‘down’ happens naturally, but I mentioned in the fourth paragraph that the golfer can also elect to ‘make it happen’. There are some elite golfers that physically (with full intention) uncock instead of allowing the uncocking to happen naturally. There is a timing factor involved when doing this, but they believe that they can produce more clubhead speed doing this than allowing physics to do it. Or, this was incorporated into their golf swings from early-on. What they do is this - either with their lead forearm/hand or their trail forearm/hand - they will physically uncock their wrist in an effort to force drive the clubshaft vertically downward, which in essence is doing what would naturally happen anyway but with additional speed and force.

 

It must be noted that with any golf swing it is imperative to maintain a flat left wrist )or slightly bowed or arched) through impact and that includes the golf swing we've been discussing that uses the pivot to move the arms/hands in a Cp (centripetal) manner, a.k.a. ‘swinging left’. Some may put a lot of emphasis on retaining the bend in their trail wrist through impact which helps keep the lead wrist flat. When the golfer ‘makes’ the uncocking happen he will most likely use his trail forearm/wrist/hand to do it. He will retain the bend in his trail wrist while at the same time forcefully uncocking to snap the clubshaft vertically downward. Watching the tour pros you can see the 'down' taking place, but what you can't tell is whether they are actually making it happen themselves to add to what comes naturally, or allowing the uncocking to happen naturally.   

 

Most golfers do not understand how or why the ‘down’ part of the release is so important (other than to get the clubhead down to where the ball is located so they can make contact), especially in terms of achieving increased clubhead speed. It’s vitally important to provide the transfer of energy down the clubshaft and into the clubhead. It makes the clubhead react much like the tip of a whip. It also adds a significant degree of stability to the clubhead. If your golf swing is mostly horizontal focused and lacks the 'down' element you're in for a pleasant surprise. You’ll see some pro-looking ball flights because you will learn to trap the ball - and you'll feel a different type of release action in the hands and forearms, and you'll hear the unmistakably wonderful sound of compressing the golf ball to the maximum!

 

Here’s an old video by an instructor (Greg Willis) explaining to his student the ‘Right Hand Drill’ to give you an idea of what a golfer does when he wants to ‘make the uncocking’ happen. This student (like many amateurs) focused primarily on moving his club in the horizon dimension and lacked any meaningful 'down', which caused him to flip and slice. This drill quickly started changing the dynamics of his swing.  

 

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Nail_It
grammar

[GreatStrike]

[GreatStrike]

4 hours ago, iSwing said:

I like the discussion arc the thread is now on because proper operating standards for our hands, wrists, and arms are obviously vitally important in swinging efficiently.   Your picture struck me as a Greg Norman Secret cake with Golfing Machine icing. 

 

I like Evershed's view as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He's right about the pivot! The pivot must be used as a carrier of the swing that moves the arms/hands. It is the pivot that allows the golfer to actually retain the bent-back condition of the right wrist (which in-turn retains the flat left wrist). Some people focus on their trail wrist and some focus on their lead wrist to get the job done - whichever works best for the individual. However, without the pivot doing its job the lead wrist will breakdown every time.

 

His comment about the 'release' is also true - at least to some extent. It all depends on what your concept of the release is. It's not a rolling of the wrists - at least not a rolling like most handicap golfers think it is. Nor is the release a horizontal swatting (flapping) of the wrists. In my view a 'release' is primarily the uncocking of the lead wrist vertically downward and secondarily some forearm rotation (which I presume he might define as rolling). Most amateurs have way too much hand/wrist action, and their action is incorrect 

 

Much of what he says is accurate but the facts are actually hidden under the layers. He says that seventy-six percent (76%) of all potential speed comes from the [educated] motion of the hands. Okay, but that's a little play with words because without the arms moving that 76% would be impossible. He says the pivot is only responsible for about three percent (3%) of the potential speed, but the pivot is the carrier of the arm motion, so...anyway, you get the picture. That said, I definitely agree that without the hands/wrists working (a.k.a. 'release') correctly a golfer has little chance of having a sound golf swing. 

 

In my opinion he is absolutely right about what he said about simplicity. The golf swing is extremely complex and needs a lot of detailed and intricate messaging to make sense for most people. This is especially true for the golfer that has some period of experience trying to acquire a good golf swing. I think you have to go through that period to better understand what is needed. It also requires using different analogies to explain the same thing, because what clicks for one doesn't always click for another.      

[GreatStrike]

To Chris...

 

When the lead wrist is held flat through impact (with only the lead wrist uncocking vertically), it is the pivot that allows this wrist action to happen. Without the pivot (body rotation) taking the hands toward the left shoe (a.k.a. 'swinging left' or 'exit left') the wrist will breakdown. If the pivot stalls then the forearms/wrists/hands are like a loose chain thrown into the air with nothing pulling on either end - the forearms/wrists/hands must have the pivot as a carrier to get them to (and past) impact. It is a combination of the pivot and this desirable flat left wrist condition the golfer must learn to acquire that provides the trapping feeling at impact. Also, that combination provides the feeling of the body weight behind the hit. That combination provides the ability for the hands and handle to lead the clubhead, or shaft lean, through impact. That combination provides stability of the clubhead and clubface through impact. That combination provides the golfer with minimal hand action, not more.       

[GreatStrike]