Jump to content

Do you throw or twist?


Golfbeat

Recommended Posts

 

Dave - All tour players 'swing left', it's just that some aren't quite as obvious as others doing it. The reason for this could be that they incorporate more forearm rotation or a deliberate wrist action, or a strong body rotation type swing, which tends to disguise the 'swinging left' hand path action seen in a pure swinger. 

 

In my opinion Justin Rose has the best 'swinging left' hand path form on tour. Not only is his 'swinging left' hand path very noticeable, but you can  sense that Justin Rose knows how important it is to his golf swing.     

 

 

 

Edited by Nail_It
grammar

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

This guy is a little difficult to understand, but hopefully you can understand enough for it to make sense. He talks about comparing 'Swinging Left' or 'Exit Left' in the golf swing to a ski boat pulling a rubber towable tube directly behind the boat in a straight line and then suddenly the ski boat makes a sharp turn to the left, which shortens the radius and makes the rubber towable tube travel much faster as it 'turns the corner' or arcs left.  Tiger Woods refers to 'Swinging Left' or 'Exit Left' as "Arcing it off", which Tiger has said is extremely important to his golf swing.  It should be a MUST DO for everyone! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Nail_It
grammar
  • Like 1

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rich - Yes! 'Swinging Left' is equally important to the short game as it is to the full golf swing. You should prove to yourself what 'Swinging Left' can do for your short game when chipping or hitting delicate little pitch shots and how helpful 'swinging left' is in crucially aligning the clubface properly at impact and delivering maximum energy into the golf ball for greatest compression instead of a weak slap, roll-up-the-clubface impact that most amateurs have when chipping.  Make no doubt about it - whether the tour pro is making a full swing or chipping his results are based on how well he compresses the golf ball for the swing he makes. Amateur golfers typically do not compress the ball well at all in their full swing or when chipping or pitching. The reason why is because they don't know how their hand path should travel in order to produce the dynamics that tour pro use to their advantage with every single swing they make. Unlike the handicap amateur the tour pro moves his hand path on a small semi circle arc in the latter stage of his downswing. This 'Swinging Left', or 'Exit Left' or 'Turning the corner', or 'Arcing it off' is what produces the results in a release that triggers  the action that produces both the outstanding compression on the ball and the alignment conditions that are awed by every handicap golfer. In that regard, 'Swinging Left' is indistinguishable from magic!      

 

I highly recommend that you grab an 8 iron and go to the yard with a half dozen golf balls. With steady and quite hands (definitely not handsy mind you) practice chipping balls with your hand path (led by your forearms and pivot) moving directly over the top of your lead left foot. You will see first-hand how wonderfully solid the little chips come off the clubface. You'll see how the trajectory is 'pro-like' due to better compression, and how the ball is always destined for your projected landing spot. 

 

Thanks for the  nice message. Best of luck to you...

 

 

   

Edited by Nail_It
grammar

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For anyone that has wondered if the great Ben Hogan integrated 'Swinging Left' into his golf swing - make no doubt about it as displayed by the video below. 

 

  

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I appreciate the time you put into this thread Nail-It. I have a couple of questions for you and I apologize if you've covered this already in this lengthy thread.

I have been working on an In To Out swing forever. I consciously go lead hand punching knuckles down or trail hand knocking knuckles down while trying to swing out to right field. My last two rounds have been 79 then 93 - you can see my consistency is not great ! I've been playing around at the range with this swinging left concept - I haven't yet tried it on the course as I'm not totally confident yet. However - using this swing I've increased my driver swing speed by at least 5 mph and I've gained at least one iron in distance. I need the distance as most older golfers do. My questions with this method are:

- I'm assuming with the exit left swing one should not consciously manipulate the hands? I'm assuming you recommend a light grip and just hang onto the club through impact?

- secondly, do you recommend to try to hit the inside bottom quadrant of the ball before swinging left? I'm slowly getting the feel for swinging left post impact but I still hit some major pulls with my wedges if I don't try to come from the inside.

 

Thanks in advance. I really do think I am onto something but I want to make sure I'm doing the basics correctly.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/19/2021 at 7:16 PM, oiler45 said:

I appreciate the time you put into this thread Nail-It. I have a couple of questions for you and I apologize if you've covered this already in this lengthy thread.

I have been working on an In To Out swing forever. I consciously go lead hand punching knuckles down or trail hand knocking knuckles down while trying to swing out to right field. My last two rounds have been 79 then 93 - you can see my consistency is not great ! I've been playing around at the range with this swinging left concept - I haven't yet tried it on the course as I'm not totally confident yet. However - using this swing I've increased my driver swing speed by at least 5 mph and I've gained at least one iron in distance. I need the distance as most older golfers do.

 

My questions with this method are:

- I'm assuming with the exit left swing one should not consciously manipulate the hands? I'm assuming you recommend a light grip and just hang onto the club through impact?

- secondly, do you recommend to try to hit the inside bottom quadrant of the ball before swinging left? I'm slowly getting the feel for swinging left post impact but I still hit some major pulls with my wedges if I don't try to come from the inside.

 

Thanks in advance. I really do think I am onto something but I want to make sure I'm doing the basics correctly.

 

 

Thanks for the post and your questions. 

 

 An in-to-out swing for 99%  of people is just asking for trouble in terms of clubface control, delivering proper loft with shaft lean, and producing a decent repeatable release without an early extension. The old in-to-out swing required a lot of hand/wrist and forearm manipulation that took years and a lot of strength in order to become proficient at it. When you swing in-to-out you are naturally opening the clubface as you move the clubhead outward beyond [on the other side of] the target line. A lot of very heavy-duty manipulation was/is required to square the clubface that was destined to be open at impact. If you didn't have what it took to manipulate the clubface perfectly while not early extending, and didn't practice constantly, you were liable to hit all sorts of mishits. It's not your modern swing technique by any means, shape or form.  It is not the recommended way to learn to swing a golf club. When you swing along the target line for a short distance and then 'swing left' you trigger a release action which naturally speeds up the clubhead and naturally squares the clubface through impact. On the other hand, if you continue to swing along the target line the clubface will hang open at impact. If you try to swing in-to-out the clubface will be opening even more unless you are a world-class manipulator extraordinaire.       

 

►   I am glad you are seeing positive results as you experiment with 'swinging left'. There's a tremendous amount of valuable information pertaining to 'swinging left' in the latter pages of this thread.  I encourage you to review it and become familiar with what is required to accomplish the technique. There's nothing bizarre or difficult about it - it's more a matter of doing it and seeing the positive results it produces and gaining confidence for it to be a part of your 'every' swing.     

 

►   You are correct - 'swinging left' does not need conscious hand/wrist or forearm manipulation. As mentioned above, doing that usually only causes problems. Hand/wrist or forearm manipulation is the typical MO of beginner and handicap golfers. They naturally feel the need to do far more than is necessary with their hands/wrists. 

 

I would not say that a light grip pressure is recommended or even desirable.  Let me put it this way - when you start moving the hand path leftward (toward traveling over your lead foot) it will put a significant amount of force on your hands/wrist as your hand path changes from travelling in a straight line to travelling in a small semi-circular radius. You just need to be able to 'continue to control' the forces that you'll be dealt due to the change in hand path travel - this is a good thing! This force you'll be dealt requires a  sizable degree of strength and firmness...as you might imagine - but nothing any adult (male or female) can't easily handle. (Much like if you swing a hammer or hatchet you'd likewise be dealt a force that would require you to hang onto the hammer or hatchet and control it...it's the same with a golf club that is changing directions due to your hand path travel change. Therefore, a light grip pressure would not be able to easily handle this force unless the golfer was very strong and the force he needed to overcome represented only a small percentage of his hand/wrist strength. Your grip pressure needs to be firm enough to maintain control but not so much as to stifle the wrist from reacting to the movement (release action) that your 'exit left' release brings about.  (To get an idea of what happens, think of the ski boat pulling a rubber float tube behind the boat in a straight travel line and then suddenly the driver of the ski boat turns sharply leftward and starts travelling in a tight radius circle. This change in direction causes the float tube to swing outward and rapidly increase speed because the travel path is now a small radius in lieu of travelling straight.  When this happens there is a sudden large force put on the pull rope at the float tube. That force in the golf swing (when 'swinging left') is put on your lead wrist (the lead wrist representing the pull rope of the float tube analogy...therefore you must have a firm grip to be able to handle that force.   (It's somewhat the same scenario when cracking a whip or snapping a damp gym towel - as the whip or towel travels from a straight line to suddenly travelling sharply in a smaller semi-circle (compared to what it had been travelling prior to the change in travel direction - with this change in hand path travel direction you will feel a force or a load in your hands/fingers and lead wrist.)  Since the ski boat turning leftward causes the rubber float tube to swing 'outward' you may be wondering  why when 'swinging left' in the golf swing it doesn't cause the clubhead to swing outward (like the rubber float tube does) across the target line, and open the clubface. Well, the rubber float tube reacts differently when the ski boat continues in its circular path versus the ski boat straightening out its travel direction soon after it suddenly and sharply turned leftward. Once your hand path starts 'swinging left' it triggers a chain reaction release activity...and your continuing 'exit left' travel pulls on the clubhead and prevents it from swinging outward across the target line - this 'exit left' pulling on the clubhead can be thought of much like when swinging a weight around on a string - the more you pull, the smaller the swing circle becomes (it doesn't swing wider and wider, but instead it swings in a smaller circle. Also, the more you pull (the steadier and faster the weight moves.)  If you didn't continue to pull into a smaller circle (a.k.a 'exit left') you wouldn't achieve the speed or have the control steadiness.

 

   You want to begin 'swinging left' soon after P6. Starting too soon can cause a pull until you become used to the feel and your timing gets better with more repetitions... Starting too late or not committing to it (or failing to proceed with it)  can cause an open clubface with a push or slice. Timing it just right and you'll get straight shots, draws and slight fades with maximum compression. Remember you are swinging from the inside (along the target line) and then to the left with a clubface that is changing from being slightly open to closing or squaring. That produces a draw ball flight.

 

The key is to time to 'swing left' to have impact when the clubface is square., which means you will have already begun the process of 'swinging left' well before impact because the clubface will move from open to square as you 'exit left'. Probably the most desirable trait to practice and accept i your mind is that your mission is to be able to hit a straight golf shot by swinging your golf club so that the clubhead/clubface only barely brushes the target line where the golf ball sits while your hand path 'swings left'.  Timing the swinging left action so the clubface is square at impact. is not that difficult. Golf is a game played amongst circles and semi-circles or arcs. The golf swing is all about your ability to swing a golf club in a circular arc and collect the round golf ball at impact with a square clubface. 'Swinging left' gives you the ability to do just that! Without the 'left' travel of the hand path your clubface is destined to be open.  Hand/wrist or forearm manipulation causes casting, early extension and loss of clubface control.  That would be equivalent manipulating the ski boat's pull rope midway between the ski boat and the float tube which would be fruitless and ineffective. The change in travel direction must come from close to the power source (e.g. the ski boat). In the case of the golf swing that can be from whatever is powering the hands to move or change direction (a.k.a. 'swinging left'). The power source can be solely from the arms or from the rotation/pivot of the torso - or a combination of both. Usually as the golfer gets more experienced his power source becomes a nice combination of torso rotation and arms whereas early-on it may favor the arms. There's nothing wrong with that progress plan...                              

 

   Forget about where your clubface first contacts the golf ball in terms of quadrants. As you gain proficiency with 'swinging left' you will understand that as your hand path travels left your shaft is laying down and your clubface is squaring and delofting, which provides the trapping feeling of the ball on the clubface. This is compression! When this is all taking place you're just expecting impact of clubface on ball with your correctly applied golf swing - not some form of manipulation to have your clubface contact some particular quadrant of the golf ball with some particular portion of your clubface. That thinking is about as troublesome as attempting to swing in to out.  

 

As an aside, to some degree the wrist rotation and bowing at impact you often see in the tour pros' swings is a product of 'swinging  left'. The clubhead is lagging the 'exit left' swing and that causes the lead wrist to want to rotate and bow...          

 

I hope this helps!  Do yourself a favor and review the posts in the latter part of this thread about 'swinging left' to get a good perspective of what is being done.

 

Good luck! 

 

 

 

Edited by Nail_It
grammar
  • Like 1

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the reply Nail - again I do appreciate the time you spend on your replies. I actually just got off the course where I tried this method for the first time. I didn't totally trust the swing but I did hit some great irons and couple of excellent drives (for me). I also hit a couple of pulls and a few out and out gronks where I abandoned the concept mid-swing. I will continue this with the hopes that it starts to feel natural. I have a hard time not manipulating my hands as I'm so used to swinging out to the right. Trying not to hit the inside of the ball is a hard habit to break because my mind's eye envisions if I swing to the left I will hit a massive pull. I understand a square clubface at impact is all that matters but this will take some time and practice.

Thanks again.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, oiler45 said:

Thanks for the reply Nail - again I do appreciate the time you spend on your replies. I actually just got off the course where I tried this method for the first time. I didn't totally trust the swing but I did hit some great irons and couple of excellent drives (for me). I also hit a couple of pulls and a few out and out gronks where I abandoned the concept mid-swing. I will continue this with the hopes that it starts to feel natural. I have a hard time not manipulating my hands as I'm so used to swinging out to the right. Trying not to hit the inside of the ball is a hard habit to break because my mind's eye envisions if I swing to the left I will hit a massive pull. I understand a square clubface at impact is all that matters but this will take some time and practice.

Thanks again.

 

I'm glad you experienced some great shots with virtually no time spent with it.  

 

I can't stress enough how important it is get used to 'swinging left' by using it to hit little chips shots. Go to the yard and hit some 5' to 8' (in the air travel distance) chips with an 8 iron.  When practicing if you miss a chip it's no big deal so it's easier on your nerves and psyche. Just have your relatively firm grip pressure hand path move directly over your lead foot. Yes, I know that sounds weird to have your hand path travel over your lead foot, but do it and see the results - you'll soon learn to trust what now seems really strange and illogical. It won't take you long to become so hyped-up about 'swinging left' that it will be indistinguishable from magic!    

Edited by Nail_It
grammar

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

The power source can be solely from the arms or a combination of arms and rotation/pivot. Usually as the golfer gets more experienced his power source becomes a nice combination of arms supplemented by torso rotation/pivot. However, early-on it's actually more desirable that it be almost entirely arms because your torso isn't holding the golf club or directing the club's travel direction... 

 

Tony - Thanks for the nice message. 

 

Much like when throwing a ball or doing anything else where the propelled object (baseball, football, rock, golf club, axe, javelin, etc.) is held by the hand, the arm (or arms in the case of swinging a golf cub since both hands are holding the club's grip/handle) are responsible for making the delivery with speed and direction. Torso/pivot rotation plays a supporting role, but rarely more than a supplemental or supporting role for the arms. In the case of the golf sing, and in particular the technique of 'swinging left', I would not recommend trying to power the swing by using the torso rotation/pivot. I would instead recommend using your arms where they work in harmony to swing the club in a circular arc on-plane to run the clubhead into the golf ball at the exact moment in time as your hand path is in the process of 'swinging left' or 'exit left'. That's your 'Bingo'! It's easier than you might think.

 

Remember - golf is a game played swinging a lofted clubface on the end of a semi-rigid shaft in a semi-circle around the golfer's body on a slanted plane while trying to hit the ball when the clubface is square so it has a straight ball flight. That sounds like a crazy yet great game for a bunch of kids to have fun trying to figure it out and then showing their buddies that it can indeed be done!  Well, the truth of the matter is - that is exactly how lots of juniors figure out how to make a sound golf swing on their own - trial and error...and most of the time they'll eventually figure out that their hand path must 'swing left' in order for the clubhead to not cross outside the target line at impact with an open clubface but instead be square at impact... For the clubface to be square at impact and traveling smack-dab on the target line exactly where the ball lays at the exact moment of impact (to achieve a straight ball fight and maximum compression) the golfer's hand path must 'exit left' through impact. Think about it - the ball is not going straight if the swing produces an outside the target line-to-inside with an open clubface at impact. Such a swing will also not compress the golf ball worth a toot. It's a rather mind-blowing task that must be carried out to hit the ball straight and compress it maximally! It's an illogical phenomenon for most people (especially adults) to accept. Throw in the fact that 'swinging left' triggers an explosive release that generates a lot of mind-bogging relatively effortless clubhead speed and you have a recipe for lots of good things to come about from a method or technique that is counterintuitive to most people's thinking of how best a golf club should be swung. And that's the game of golf! If you think you're strong and talented enough to manipulate the clubhead/clubface to accomplish a desirable impact condition, to be honest there's a fat chance of that happening...or actually a slim chance of it happening. Is there any wonder why so many people can't figure out how to make a sound golf swing? As Ben Hogan once said - "Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing." 

 

When you practice go back to your childhood where experimenting was commonplace and you didn't worry much about the the results of your actions. Try your darndest to run your clubhead into the ball at the exact moment you ''exit left' from along the target line (where the golf ball lays and your impact occurs) to inside the target line.  Make your golf swing primarily with your arms and just allow (don't make) your torso/body to provide a supporting role when, and if, it wants to. 

 

All the best...    

 

 

                                           

Edited by Nail_It
grammar

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alex - Thanks for the update on your golf game and your recent scoring and local tournament successes. I realize and accept that you prefer to only read the forum's posts and not post, but your progress is very enlightening, especially how adopting the 'swinging left' or exit left' technique has really turned your game around and improved your confidence. If you do change your mind about posting I'm sure your message and story will be very encouraging to others. Nevertheless, I wish you continued success...     

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Joseph - Thanks for the question from your 14 handicap father-in-law to help him better understand why 'swinging left' is so important to the building of a sound golf swing. 

 

(Note: Joseph says the information and posts in this thread about 'swinging left' have helped him to halve his handicap to a 6, and it has done more for his golf game than all the many lessons he has taken put together.)  Congrats Joseph! Good luck in your pursuit of a 3 or better handicap. You are well on your way!  

 

If your swing is not over-the-top, but more appropriately you swing your clubhead inside-to-inside the target line...or even a little bit inside-to-outside the target line; a left-veering clubhead (accomplished by the hand path purposely 'swinging left' at impact) is actually a good thing. Here's why. If you focus on swinging the clubhead straight down the target line through impact, you'll actually restrict the natural release of the forearms and wrists. And the clubface will stay or hang open, resulting in a blocked shot or a slice with only a glancing impact. This is the typical handicap golfer's curse! By swinging the club left through impact, you will naturally roll over (I dislike that term) the arms and hands, squaring the clubface and hitting a draw ball flight with maximum compression. Your job is to swing the club left through ball contact via your hand path. Aim your attention to have your hand path travel over your lead foot to implement the 'swinging left' dynamism, and the results will be passionately indistinguishable from magic.      

 

 https://a773d140dd7167fad487-522057373f42f6e646e4f4ef62a38951.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/swing-left-to-hit-the-ball-straight-HD.mp4

 

Edited by Nail_It
grammar

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jason - Thanks for sharing you story. You should be proud of what you have accomplished - including the awe you feel that competitors have for your golfing abilities, which you attribute singularly to the secret of 'swinging left'.  I am appreciative that you feel I played a part in your success.

 

'Swinging left' can indeed be thought of as a secret by people that are unaware of what you now know if you consider the definition of 'secret' is something that is not known about by many people. We know that 'swinging left' is not a secret at all, but what 'swinging left' involves can be thought of as strange because it is difficult to comprehend by most people. What it achieves is about as hidden, obscure, illusionary, and mysterious as it gets.

 

Knowing about 'swinging left' and understanding how it is done and why it is done and you purposely making it a part of your golf swing actually puts you in a very small clique of insiders; which you find has put you in an enviable position that not many others in your league or circle of golfing friends and competitors know about...and that in turn has obviously made you very confident in your golf game, and mysteriously special in their eyes - a golfer having that special something that is difficult or impossible for them to understand, explain, or identify, which only a select few are gifted with...or so they think! 

 

Continued success!

 

PS - Yes, Jason - This thread does have 1.5 million views! Yet 'swinging left' remains an illogical technique to most handicap golfers and is simply pushed aside, and therefore handicaps continue to remain higher than they ought to be and do not improve...  

 

 

 

 

  

Edited by Nail_It
grammar

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Nail_It what are your thoughts on having the left forearm rotate the club to the top and the left forearm to return the club back to impact. If you stand up with club in front and almost fully extended, my whole swing is rotate the left forearm (not wrist) to the top and as I get to the top feel the re-rotation of the left forearm to bring me to impact. This creates a late set and at times timing issues. Are you more in line with an early set and keeping the set and letting the speed build from top of swing through impact with the feeling of going left?

 

With current swing it is hard to go left unless I hold it off but then I don't get a full release feeling through the ball. Thx for your time

Eddie

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, eddie3392 said:

@Nail_It what are your thoughts on having the left forearm rotate the club to the top and the left forearm to return the club back to impact. If you stand up with club in front and almost fully extended, my whole swing is rotate the left forearm (not wrist) to the top and as I get to the top feel the re-rotation of the left forearm to bring me to impact. This creates a late set and at times timing issues. Are you more in line with an early set and keeping the set and letting the speed build from top of swing through impact with the feeling of going left?

 

With current swing it is hard to go left unless I hold it off but then I don't get a full release feeling through the ball. Thx for your time

 

 

Eddie - thanks for your question.

 

It is my belief that if the lead forearm is purposely (physically or muscularly) rotated to the top in the backswing (whether there is some additional rotation at the top or even if the downswing rebounds with a  down-c0ck and begins the reverse rotation) the golfer will almost certainly have to purposely (muscularly) get involved reversing the forearm rotation in the downswing, which not only becomes a timing matter, but contracted muscles really slows the swing down and often causes a poor swing path (e.g. over-the-top). Not to mention how with such a swing you're going to square the clubface through impact. That kind of swing just promotes the likelihood of muscling and manipulation the club in the downswing. In my opinion you would be better served to stay away from anything that causes you to muscle or manipulate the club in the downswing. I don't quite understand you saying that you do not rotate the wrist during your backswing to the top. I presume that is what is providing the late set. I like to see a natural forearm and wrist action (much like one would have if swinging in a horizontal plane) with a casual and natural flow of momentum, which promotes a middle-of-the-road wrist set. I would steer clear of trying to physically place the club or forcing the club with muscular movement. Your best accuracy and speed will come from a natural flow of momentum with the clubhead traveling inside-to-inside the target line and a release technique (e.g 'swinging left' hand path) that provides a square clubface at impact.     

 

    

 

Here's a video that might offer some insight with those challenges...

 

 

Edited by Nail_It
grammar

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I imagine that Eddie is asking about the forearm rotation because it doesn't come naturally for him (like it doesn't for me). Without it, I take the club back hooded, with the wrists and club in an unnatural position, requiring a compensation or two to keep from pull-hooking it off the planet. I, personally, have to concentrate (at least initially) on "allowing" my arms to rotate 90° by top of backswing, or else my swing will feel/be contrived getting back to the ball.

 

In terms of staying on topic here, I feel as though this [what FEELS like a] gradual and slight "opening" of the club face is critical in getting the club on-plane and feeling as though you can freely swing the club.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@KMeloney @Nail_It I have to focus on the forearm muscle to not overly open the club or have the club closed down at hip high. My forearm across the chest put me on plane but I do fight timing issues. I started to use this when I was doing a 9 to 3 drill and noticed that the smallest of forearm rotation actually put me in decent positions at hip high on video. 

 

Since my left side is my dominant side I feel like the forearm is a trigger type thing for me or a FEEL to help my swing. 

 

Thank you for your replies guys!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, KMeloney said:

I imagine that Eddie is asking about the forearm rotation because it doesn't come naturally for him (like it doesn't for me). Without it, I take the club back hooded, with the wrists and club in an unnatural position, requiring a compensation or two to keep from pull-hooking it off the planet. I, personally, have to concentrate (at least initially) on "allowing" my arms to rotate 90° by top of backswing, or else my swing will feel/be contrived getting back to the ball.

 

In terms of staying on topic here, I feel as though this [what FEELS like a] gradual and slight "opening" of the club face is critical in getting the club on-plane and feeling as though you can freely swing the club.

 

I'd say you're probably right about why Eddie was asking about forearm rotation - it just wasn't rotating naturally. 

 

The best way to overcome the problem of the forearm not rotating naturally is to take the forearm's essential activity away from the arm entirely. 

 

When you begin the backswing by moving your right scapula inward just a couple of inches toward your spine the backswing happens automatically and naturally, and [for most people] the lead forearm will naturally rotate just like it does when making a flat or horizontal (baseball) swing. As the scapula moves slowly inward toward the spine the club will be nicely transported back. 

 

There is another tremendous advantage of making the backswing by moving the right scapula inward toward your the spine - when the right scapula retracts in the backswing it protracts late in the downswing.  (See images below of Tiger and Dustin Johnson with their right scapula fully retracted at the top of their backswing.) 

 

The right shoulder goes from retraction to protraction late in the downswing. The right scapula protracts late in the downswing with the right wrist bend easily retained to counter a tendency to flip with the right hand/wrist. The more you visualize the right scapula going beyond 90 degrees in the backswing the more you'll lock into a completed position of power - much like completing the cam roll over position when using a compound archery bow with cam. A completed full scapula position does a nice job of resisting downswing pull force which oftentimes will cause an early release. A completed full scapula position also adds control and power to the swing.

 

~~~~~~~~~~

 

For the liking of many heavily right side dominant golfers (that really prefer using their right side) the golf swing's entire process (backswing and downswing) can be controlled by their right shoulder, which is desirable for them because the downswing energy comes from the same right shoulder (scapula) area. Just don't try to accelerate the arms or you'll put slack in tension - much like stretching a rubber band back but then purposely loosening the tension. Leading the downswing with the left shoulder and arm automatically causes casting or early extension. The right shoulder and arm needs to be in full control of the swing.  

 

Retracting the right scapula not only leads to a full turn, but also contracts the right quadratus lumborum, which forces the left hip target-wards and creates vertical spine tilt - combined with a turning/screwing of the right foot clockwise - this is the transition! In other words, the right hip clears out of the way for the right arm.   

 

Retraction of the right shoulder in the backswing allows you to get a lot of rotation.  The left shoulder protracts during the backswing.  As you come into the downswing, the left shoulder is going to stay protracted and the shoulder won’t be as open as the chest.  Your chest shouldn’t feel too open at impact, and your shoulders will be square because your left shoulder is protracted. The right arm and the club are like a whip and the right  shoulder (scapula) is the handle of the whip. It's an athletic move that uses the retracted power-packed right shoulder to throw a tension-free right arm, wrist and club.  

 

In the downswing the right shoulder is going to start working forward because we're actually throwing the right arm. The right shoulder is in full retraction going back, and then starting forward you are really going to let the right arm release to get the club to catch up.  So the right shoulder is pretty much neutral at impact through impact, not retracted nor protracted. When you come all the way around into a full finish the left shoulder is retracted back an the right shoulder is protracted.  

 

 

 

 

 

  

5840825-s1  dj9 dj272f297a4e7826d960e1e3d7db1afe5957d

Edited by Nail_It
grammer
  • Like 1

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bocaji said:

@Nail_It

any good exercises for working the scaps? Will pull ups do just fine or some other variation?

 

No exercises are really needed. The muscles surrounding your shoulders and your back are already plenty strong enough. Strengthening the scapula muscles certainly wouldn't hurt, but you'd want to be mindful and careful not to overwork your arms if using stretch equipment like a chest expander.   

Edited by Nail_It
grammar

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Beautiful Backswing!  Look at that Right Scapula - Latched & Loaded like a powerful compound archery bow pulled back over the cam..ready for the downswing  

Golf-Swing-Backswing-Drill-Making-a-Full-Shoulder-Turn

Edited by Nail_It
grammar

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fred Couples and Jack Nicklaus (both with a degree of flying right elbow) with their right scapula fully retracted.

 

Level-Right-Wrist nicklaus-bs

 

 

 

 

In comparison - a weak backswing position w/ no right scapula retraction - he's positioned for OTT, flipping, early extension and casting . 

dj8

Edited by Nail_It
grammar

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

This will help explain the small 2 inch movement of the right scapula moving inward toward the spine to begin the backswing.   

 

 

 

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dave - If you are hitting pulls that draw or hook, your club path is out-to-in which is producing the pull, and your 'exit left' hand path release is producing the draw/hook ball flight. The out-to-in club path is likely caused by an over-the-top move in your early downswing. To help get rid of the over-the-top move and the out-to-in club path - imagine your clubhead path to be that of a semi-circle. Imagine a hula hoop laying on the ground with the ball at the outer edge of the circle furthermost away from you. (See image below) Your backswing and your downswing clubhead travel path should follow that basic semi-circle shape of that hula hoop. Making the semi-circle just a tad smaller in diameter than a regular size hula hoop size will emphasize the need to swing the clubhead on a smaller diameter semi-circle arc. Remember, we have two paths to manage - the clubhead path and the hand path. Your hand path should travel on an even smaller diameter semi-circle. (One of the problems that many amateurs face is trying to make their hand path travel a much larger circular arc than it should - thinking it will add clubhead speed and power - this usually causes an out-to-in clubhead path.) Continue to incorporate your 'swinging left' release technique at impact. What you are after is a slight in-to-in clubhead path (see image below) related to the target line (like what the hula hoop hopefully envisages to you). Once you achieve an in-to-in club path with an 'exit left' release you'll start seeing either a straight ball flight with a draw, or a slight push-draw ball flight. Your mission is to hit a straight ball flight while swinging the clubhead in a semi-circle in-to-in club path. To accomplish that mission you must 'exit left' to trigger a release that squares the clubface through impact (see image below) . It's not a Mission Impossible feat!     

 

 

Sergio.JPG

 

 

                  

Edited by Nail_It
grammar
  • Like 1

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I would like to thank @Nail_It for the amazing contributions and explanations in this thread. I stumbled upon the “pickle jar release” in my wedge game lately and was wondering what I did to release and finish in a manner where my left arm allowed my right arm to overtake it. I began to notice the seemingly partial follow through finish position of this right/left overlap is evident in some shots by the likes of Rory, Reed, Rahm, etc. I revisited this thread and it began to make sense to me. Anyway, I started to add this to my release feels and some good things happened, especially when coupled with a good pivot. It is good to note that the intent must but there early in the downswing otherwise it’s too late. I am optimistic about this technique and will put in the work to make it part of my swing. I have been a classic example of delivering an open club face (albeit with a descending AOA, decent speed, wrist angles/shaft lean, etc) and working around an open face draw with irons, but dealing with massive slices with the driver. With the pickle jar release I now feel like I am capable of closing the face. The hosel is out of the way and sweet spot is exposed (finally).

 

Note this technique is complimentary to my previous golf instruction(s), which were key to instilling a good setup, backswing, and pivot.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Fritz - It sounds like you are having your dominant right hand (right side) interfere somewhere in the mid-downswing or in the delivery zone. That is likely the reason you are hitting slightly fat shots. Work on having your left arm and left side dominant to swing the golf club. Your kinematic sequence will really improve and your weight shift will be much better too. Also, the transfer of energy to the golf ball at impact will be better. Do not attempt to use your right hand (right side) to 'swing left'. The 'Swing Left' hand path through impact must be done with your left hand/forearm.  If the right hand is allowed to get involved in executing the 'swinging left' hand path, clubface control is usually lost and it's very likely it'll cause early extension and heavy or semi-fat shots.      

 

Hope this answers your question and helps...  

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Ted - Thank you for the very thoughtful note.  I'm glad to hear of your successes, and I'm glad I was able to help you achieve them. 🥇  

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@MonteScheinblum

 

See post above^^^^^^^^

TaylorMade JDM SLDR TP 430 10*           MCA Diamana X17 60X

TaylorMade SIM2 Ti 15*                           MCA Diamana X17 70X

Bridgestone J33 AirMuscle 19*                 Velyx Rome Wildeye 988X
MIURA TC-201   4-6                                  MCA MMT-105TX

MIURA MB-101  7-P                                   MCA MMT-125TX
Chikara V1 Prototype  52, 57, 60                MCA MMT-125TX (8-iron)

Cameron 009 1.5 34/350 Beached Prototype (A010656)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Our picks

    • 2022 Farmers Insurance Open Photos - 26 WITBs & New Gear- Discussion and Links
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
      General Albums - 
       
      2022 Farmers Insurance Open - Monday #1
      2022 Farmers Insurance Open - Monday #2
      2022 Farmers Insurance Open - Monday #3
      2022 Farmers Insurance Open - Monday #4
       
       
      WITB Albums - 
       
      Hideki Matsuyama - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Sung Kang - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Adam Long - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Brandon Wu - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Jimmy Walker - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Sam Burns - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Xander Schauffele - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Trey Mullinax - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Daniel Berger - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      James Hahn - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Phil Mickelson - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Aaron Wise - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Justin Thomas - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Lee Hodges - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Jordan Spieth - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Cameron Champ - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Kyle Stanley - WITB - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
       
       
      Pullout Albums - 
       
      New Super Stroke grip - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Tour Aim alignment aids - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Swag Golf: Hideki's caddie bowing at Augusta, signed headcovers – 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Dylan Frittelli's Callaway Apex TCB Sand Wedge (1-of-1 proto) – 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      Bryson DeChambeau's Cobra King LTDx 5-degree driver – 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      NeuroPeak Pro NTel Belt - 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
      JumboMax JMX Zen Lite grips – 2022 Farmers Insurance Open
       
      Cameron Champ WITB has the new Ping i525

       
      Bryson's WITB has the new Cobra LTDx Driver 

       
      Phils new Rogue Driver

       
      Bryson's LAGolf Shaft in the driver

       
      Xander has the triple diamond "S" driver

       
      New SuperStroke grips for 2022

       
        • Thanks
      • 8 replies
    • 2022 The American Express WITB Photos (Spotted: New gear for 2022) - Discussion & Links
      Please put and comments or questions here
       
       
      Scotty Cameron putters - 2022 American Express
      New Taylor-Made putters - 2022 American Express
      New Odyssey putters - 2022 American Express
      New Axis 1 model putter - - 2022 American Express
      Patrick Cantlay - WITB - 2022 American Express
      Mitsubishi MMT putter shaft - 2022 American Express
      Ping putter - 2022 American Express
      Abraham Ancer - WITB - 2022 American Express
      Jason Dufner - WITB - 2022 American Express
      Will Zalatoris - WITB - 2022 American Express
      The Surgeon 6109 wedge - 2022 American Express
      LA Golf "DJ Series" shafts (2022 American Express)
       
       
       
      2022 American Express - Monday #1
       
       
       
       
      • 40 replies
    • Sony Open Pics from January 11, 2022 Part 1
      I was able to get out to the Sony Open today to take a few pics.  I guess due to Covid precautions they kept the spectators pretty far from the players.  Also due to camera restrictions they've put in place, I wasn't able to bring the big lens like I normally do. Hopefully they'll ease up on the ropes and I'll be able to get more pics tomorrow!
        • Thanks
        • Like
      • 22 replies
    • 2022 Callaway Rogue ST drivers (in-hand photos)
      2022 Callaway Rogue ST Max driver
       

       
      2022 Callaway Rogue ST Max D driver
       
      2021 Callaway Rogue ST Max 
       
      2022 Callaway Rogue ST Max LS driver

       
      2022 Callaway Rogue ST Triple Diamond LS

       
      Rogue ST exploded views
        • Like
      • 223 replies
    • Titleist Vokey SM9 Link on Wedge Works Coming Soon- UPDATED Pics Added Pg 4
      Looks like there is a link on Titleist Wedge Works for the new Vokey SM9, but doesn't show any photos yet.
       
      https://www.vokey.com/product/WM137.html#start=4
        • Thanks
        • Like
      • 237 replies

×
×
  • Create New...