Do you throw or twist?

[JLP_GOLF]

On 11/27/2021 at 8:27 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

There’s throw and twist in every release.  

Could it be as simple as those who miss left too often need to feel more throw and less twist and those who miss right need to feel more twist and less throw?  

 

I came across this video from Scott Cowx which i thought was a great of explaining different release models.  It's technical enough to explain how the wrists and hands are working but simple enough that I think most can grasp.  Model A is more of a twist/supinating release where as Model B is more of a throwing release with less shaft and club face rotation.  Seems that the tour is moving in the direction of a throw relation with a hard pivot.  Guys like Brooks, Colin, Viktor, DJ, westwood, etc.  Anyways, fascinating stuff and aplogies if this has been shared somewhere in the thread already.

 

https://hackmotion.com/scott-cowx-wrist-patterns/

[glk]

1 minute ago, Jlopicco23 said:

Could it be as simple as those who miss left too often need to feel more throw and less twist and those who miss right need to feel more twist and less throw?  

 

I came across this video from Scott Cowx which i thought was a great of explaining different release models.  It's technical enough to explain how the wrists and hands are working but simple enough that I think most can grasp.  Model A is more of a twist/supinating release where as Model B is more of a throwing release with less shaft and club face rotation.  Seems that the tour is moving in the direction of a throw relation with a hard pivot.  Guys like Brooks, Colin, Viktor, DJ, westwood, etc.  Anyways, fascinating stuff and aplogies if this has been shared somewhere in the thread already.

 

https://hackmotion.com/scott-cowx-wrist-patterns/

Nope on moving to one or the other.  Supination is in every swing and so is wrist flexion and extension.   Other than sabbatini and Berger everyone measured is extending their lead wrist thru impact (extending not necessarily extended though some do).   And pro supinate early and more than most amatuers.      Too much focus on false dichotomies - the swing is a spectrum of motions not an either or.

[JLP_GOLF]

no where in my post does it suggest it should be one OR the other.... not sure what you read to get to that response.  Agree on it being a spectrum but my question was based on ball flight and could each miss not have the proper blend of each variable (throw and twist/supination).  To be fair, I could care less about most 100 handicaps and my comment was more so meant for people that hit the ball reasonably well.  you should watch the Scott Cowx video, he agreed with most of what you have said here in the Cobra model or model B.  For those players the wrist is moving from flexion towards extension around or slightly after impact.  He says technically you could look at it as a timed or delayed scoop.  An amateur would not be getting his fands far enough forward and would be scooping much sooner than your good player who uses this release.  interesting stuff

[glk]

7 minutes ago, Jlopicco23 said:

no where in my post does it suggest it should be one OR the other.... not sure what you read to get to that response.  Agree on it being a spectrum but my question was based on ball flight and could each miss not have the proper blend of each variable (throw and twist/supination).  To be fair, I could care less about most 100 handicaps and my comment was more so meant for people that hit the ball reasonably well.  you should watch the Scott Cowx video, he agreed with most of what you have said here in the Cobra model or model B.  For those players the wrist is moving from flexion towards extension around or slightly after impact.  He says technically you could look at it as a timed or delayed scoop.  An amateur would not be getting his fands far enough forward and would be scooping much sooner than your good player who uses this release.  interesting stuff

Watched it a year or so ago.  Yes you didn't say it was a one or the other.    I'm not a fan of putting swings into types versus noting motions that most good players perform (and their timing and matchups)  - I don't see a lot of difference in Scott's 3 types of release - they all go into extension prior to impact, they all supinate at least 100* prior to impact - the difference seems to be more of what happens prior to release.     

 

Tyler's talk at WGFS might interest you too.    If you aren't a member you can take a free 7 day trial and watch Tyler's video on arm movements of elite golfers.   He talks about both left and right arms.

https://www.golfsmartacademy.com/golf-instruction/wgfs-2018-arm-movements-elite-golfers/

[JLP_GOLF]

4 minutes ago, glk said:

Watched it a year or so ago.  Yes you didn't say it was a one or the other.    I'm not a fan of putting swings into types versus noting motions that most good players perform (and their timing and matchups)  - I don't see a lot of difference in Scott's 3 types of release - they all go into extension prior to impact, they all supinate at least 100* prior to impact - the difference seems to be more of what happens prior to release.     

 

Tyler's talk at WGFS might interest you too.    If you aren't a member you can take a free 7 day trial and watch Tyler's video on arm movements of elite golfers.   He talks about both left and right arms.

https://www.golfsmartacademy.com/golf-instruction/wgfs-2018-arm-movements-elite-golfers/

Fair enough - if you don't like categorizing players, that is your rightful choice.  I have followed Tyler for years and think he is a great instructor - like his stuff a lot.  Scott's break down of the wrist motions and release types was the best explanation I have heard on the topic to date.  For me, of course.

[glk]

1 minute ago, Jlopicco23 said:

Fair enough - if you don't like categorizing players, that is your rightful choice.  I have followed Tyler for years and think he is a great instructor - like his stuff a lot.  Scott's break down of the wrist motions and release types was the best explanation I have heard on the topic to date.  For me, of course.

Not necessarily players but swing motions - I get where this comes from - we humans like to find patterns - and the state of golf knowledge was pretty poor prior to technology and real science getting significantly involved this century.    

Scott Lynn says we humans are messy - I agree and attempts to put our motions into boxes is futile and frankly leads to folks doing bad things to their swings.     What I do like about patterns is understanding matchups that are needed.

 

What did you think of the Tyler video I linked?

[Golfbeat]

1 hour ago, Chippy8 said:

 

Always nice to read responses, but isn't this a violation of WRX's Rules and Terms of use?  I was going to post something similar about Sandtrap a few days ago but glad I read the rules, thought you should know.  Hope it isn't a violation.  

 

You agree that your Postings will not promote, link to or encourage others to visit Golf Web sites that provide message boards, forums or chats.

 

Please leave this to the moderators. I fail to see why you need to mention this. Is this some kind of citizens arrest? It is perfectly OK to show footage and views of top instructors.

[JLP_GOLF]

20 minutes ago, Golfbeat said:

 

Please leave this to the moderators. I fail to see why you need to mention this. Is this some kind of citizens arrest? It is perfectly OK to show footage and views of top instructors.

This is ridiculous…not sure how suggesting material someone thinks might help another in need would be viewed at as promotion in violation of the that rule.  This site is literally littered with content from other instructors - ranging from sharing instruction ideas, reviewing membership sites, and recommending online instructors.     Remind me never to speed in your neighborhood!

[nitram]

Take a DEEP Breath, SLOWLY Exhale,  and R-E-L-A-X.

 

 

[JLP_GOLF]

1 hour ago, nitram said:

Take a DEEP Breath, SLOWLY Exhale,  and R-E-L-A-X.

 

 

Lol I’m completely relaxed … just don’t understand the behavior.  Your comment adds a lot of value though.  Do less

[JLP_GOLF]

4 hours ago, glk said:

Not necessarily players but swing motions - I get where this comes from - we humans like to find patterns - and the state of golf knowledge was pretty poor prior to technology and real science getting significantly involved this century.    

Scott Lynn says we humans are messy - I agree and attempts to put our motions into boxes is futile and frankly leads to folks doing bad things to their swings.     What I do like about patterns is understanding matchups that are needed.

 

What did you think of the Tyler video I linked?

Heady stuff in that video.  I think there was a good amount of overlap between our videos.  Tyler going the extra mile with anatomy and detailing the forearms and shoulders while Scott was more isolating the wrist conditions.  Good watch tho, thanks!

[GreatStrike]

 

Do you try to assist your swing? Of course you do! 

 

But when you assist your swing, then you must resist it! 

 

Learn to not do either!   

 

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[berndgeurts]

Up and left through impact

 

 

 

[Delacroix]

I know that this topic is old... but I wanted to chime in that Hocus_Pocus has completely changed my perception of the golf swing and has changed how the game feel. I was astounded at the range.

 

For 10 years I've been hurling my arms and body at the golf ball. My club face has been open. I've always wondered how people get that "smack" of an iron crunching the golf ball. 

 

I just kept flipping harder and harder. I've never FELT the club head... never had control...

 

Then about a month ago I "tipped the sweet spot out"... got it from hiding from behind the hosel.

 

I got to the top of transition and instead of opening the club face I decided to gently go the OTHER way. Once the toe of the club tipped out I could feel the weight of the club head take over... for once in my life I felt the club doing the work. Everything clicked. The Hanger, "Bow the Wrist" youtube videos, listening to instructors have never been able to do this.

 

My 7 iron has gained literally 20 yards. Every strike is solid. My default flight is a mid draw... still trying to learn how to dial down the closure to get high fades. But this is WILDLY different.

 

It feels like I just slightly close the club face and just rotate in to it. I feel like my arms are just zipping through. And my subconscious actually KNOWS where the leading edge is. 

 

It is just like you said... it is literally the exact opposite of what you think you should do in a golf swing. It's mind blowing.

[GreatStrike]

Pete,

 

Thanks for the message. 

 

With reference to 'swinging left', 'exit left', 'arc it off' - think about throwing a baseball or football. The ball must be thrown from within an arc, otherwise it would not have any speed. The semi-circular arc is what allows the thrower to generate the speed of the ball being thrown. That arc diameter is controlled by the thrower's arm length and shoulder joint. In the case of a golfer's golf swing the arc - which the clubhead travels - is controlled primarily by the golfer's hand path.  Much like twirling a weight around on the end of a string, the shorter the string, the faster the speed of the weight being twirled. 

 

When the golfer with a sound golf swing 'exits left'' or swings left' or 'arcs it off' (as Tiger calls it) he essentially shortens the string which then speeds up the clubhead. This action also does two other much needed features - it stabilizes the clubhead and it squares the clubface as the clubhead is pulled out of its large arc diameter. This happens because the action of 'swinging left' puts tension on the clubshaft much like tension is put on a string or rope during swinging a weight around from the centrifugal/centripetal force.  If you have ever tried to throw a rock from a sling (think David & Goliath) the sling and rock is twirled around in a circle, but when it's time to release the rock the thrower pulls inward thereby making the circle diameter path smaller, thus increasing the projectile's speed. It's the same principle in the golf swing when the golfer 'swings left'. 

 

The fallacy that amateur golfers (especially men) must overcome is the false belief that their brute strength is better able to deliver clubhead speed than physic's centrifugal/centripetal force. The idea that most amateurs have is to move the clubhead via the club's rigid clubshaft using leverage and the golfer's muscular strength, which is a pure misapprehension. Another fallacy that amateur golfers (especially men) must overcome is the false belief that they can square the clubface by twisting the clubshaft either with their hands, their forearms or their upper body. 

 

When you 'swing left', 'exit left', 'arc it off' you naturally square the clubface through impact, which takes care of the aforementioned fault of trying to square the clubface by muscular manipulation. Also, when you 'swing left', 'exit left', 'arc it off' you naturally add body rotation without even trying which adds speed and oomph to impact. So, 'swinging left', 'exiting left', 'arcing it off' has many benefits which are all positive...and automatically takes care of common faults that most amateurs deal with.     

 

Very quickly after understanding the technique of using an arc for the clubhead to travel on and controlling it with hand path, and incorporating the 'swinging left' protocol - the golfer's golf swing prowess typically begins to soar.

 

The last 6-7 pages of this thread has a lot of images, articles and videos that addresses the technique of 'swinging  left'.

 

Next time you go to the range pick up a can of foot power spray and spray on the ground or the mat your semi-circular arc you want your clubhead to travel - and spray another semi-circular arc (inside the arc for the clubhead travel) that you want your hand path to travel. Then practice swinging your clubhead and hand path over those arcs...and practice 'swinging left' by pulling your hand path inward to make your hand path travel over your left foot.  You should begin seeing good results quickly...   

 

               

Edited April 4, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[SHAFUA]

Shawn Clements baton twirl vid been set to private seen it mentioned but it never works 

[writing running]

On 4/2/2022 at 9:23 PM, Delacroix said:

I know that this topic is old... but I wanted to chime in that Hocus_Pocus has completely changed my perception of the golf swing and has changed how the game feel. I was astounded at the range.

 

For 10 years I've been hurling my arms and body at the golf ball. My club face has been open. I've always wondered how people get that "smack" of an iron crunching the golf ball. 

 

I just kept flipping harder and harder. I've never FELT the club head... never had control...

 

Then about a month ago I "tipped the sweet spot out"... got it from hiding from behind the hosel.

 

I got to the top of transition and instead of opening the club face I decided to gently go the OTHER way. Once the toe of the club tipped out I could feel the weight of the club head take over... for once in my life I felt the club doing the work. Everything clicked. The Hanger, "Bow the Wrist" youtube videos, listening to instructors have never been able to do this.

 

My 7 iron has gained literally 20 yards. Every strike is solid. My default flight is a mid draw... still trying to learn how to dial down the closure to get high fades. But this is WILDLY different.

 

It feels like I just slightly close the club face and just rotate in to it. I feel like my arms are just zipping through. And my subconscious actually KNOWS where the leading edge is. 

 

It is just like you said... it is literally the exact opposite of what you think you should do in a golf swing. It's mind blowing.

Great.  By toe out, you essentially tip the club in the downswing when it goes horizontal (or into the swing space beneath the waist -- right?). This sounds like what I've been feeling using some methods I picked up from online instruction and after studying the basic framework of a golf swing relative to other sports. So you basically felt the club head get ahead of or in front of the club handle as it should, and as it the head does in baseball, hockey, and tennis. Too much of this modern instruction  of chasing lag forces people to completely lose feel of the club and the balance of the instrument. Been there man. 

[GreatStrike]

On 4/3/2022 at 11:46 AM, Hocus_Pocus said:

Pete,

 

Thanks for the message. 

 

With reference to 'swinging left', 'exit left', 'arc it off' - think about throwing a baseball or football. The ball must be thrown from within an arc, otherwise it would not have any speed. The semi-circular arc is what allows the thrower to generate the speed of the ball being thrown. That arc diameter is controlled by the thrower's arm length and shoulder joint. In the case of a golfer's golf swing the arc - which the clubhead travels - is controlled primarily by the golfer's hand path.  Much like twirling a weight around on the end of a string, the shorter the string, the faster the speed of the weight being twirled. 

 

When the golfer with a sound golf swing 'exits left'' or swings left' or 'arcs it off' (as Tiger calls it) he essentially shortens the string which then speeds up the clubhead. This action also does two other much needed features - it stabilizes the clubhead and it squares the clubface as the clubhead is pulled out of its large arc diameter. This happens because the action of 'swinging left' puts tension on the clubshaft much like tension is put on a string or rope during swinging a weight around from the centrifugal/centripetal force.  If you have ever tried to throw a rock from a sling (think David & Goliath) the sling and rock is twirled around in a circle, but when it's time to release the rock the thrower pulls inward thereby making the circle diameter path smaller, thus increasing the projectile's speed. It's the same principle in the golf swing when the golfer 'swings left'. 

 

The fallacy that amateur golfers (especially men) must overcome is the false belief that their brute strength is better able to deliver clubhead speed than physic's centrifugal/centripetal force. The idea that most amateurs have is to move the clubhead via the club's rigid clubshaft using leverage and the golfer's muscular strength, which is a pure misapprehension. Another fallacy that amateur golfers (especially men) must overcome is the false belief that they can square the clubface by twisting the clubshaft either with their hands, their forearms or their upper body. 

 

When you 'swing left', 'exit left', 'arc it off' you naturally square the clubface through impact, which takes care of the aforementioned fault of trying to square the clubface by muscular manipulation. Also, when you 'swing left', 'exit left', 'arc it off' you naturally add body rotation without even trying which adds speed and oomph to impact. So, 'swinging left', 'exiting left', 'arcing it off' has many benefits which are all positive...and automatically takes care of common faults that most amateurs deal with.     

 

Very quickly after understanding the technique of using an arc for the clubhead to travel on and controlling it with hand path, and incorporating the 'swinging left' protocol - the golfer's golf swing prowess typically begins to soar.

 

The last 6-7 pages of this thread has a lot of images, articles and videos that addresses the technique of 'swinging  left'.

 

Next time you go to the range pick up a can of foot power spray and spray on the ground or the mat your semi-circular arc you want your clubhead to travel - and spray another semi-circular arc (inside the arc for the clubhead travel) that you want your hand path to travel. Then practice swinging your clubhead and hand path over those arcs...and practice 'swinging left' by pulling your hand path inward to make your hand path travel over your left foot.  You should begin seeing good results quickly... 

 

Pete - I'm glad to know it's making good sense to you.

 

You know how stable that weight is when you twirl it around on the end of a string? You know how that flexible string becomes straight as a rod when it is under tension? You know how predictable that weight swings as it passes in the exact same place when it orbits? You know how fast that weight speeds around when swung? That's the results of using the natural resources of centrifugal/centripetal force! If we incorporate using that same force when swinging a golf club's clubhead, we are using the golf club as it is designed to be used.

 

And you're right, Pete. You should feel that your body is contributing more to the swing - because when you 'swing left', 'exit left', 'arc it off' you naturally engage your body more in the swing, adding energy and speed from the body's rotation. If you take away that 'swing left' technique you're left with trying to generate speed with muscular manipulation, and trying to square the clubface with muscular manipulation, which usually causes drastically slow clubhead speed, over-the-top swings, an open clubface at impact and flipping just to name a few common faults.  Best of luck with your encouraging progress.  

               

       

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[GreatStrike]

Austin,

It's nice hearing from you and thanks for the links to your videos.

 

The reason you have both poor distance and direction is because you are locked-up in your wrists. You'll never achieve reasonable clubhead speed or clubface control with wrists so firm and inflexible. I'm afraid you have taken the FLW (flat left or lead wrist) so literally and to the extreme that you have limited your lead wrist's ability to perform a 'release' as it should to produce excellent clubhead speed with adequate face control.

 

I would forget the FLW for the time being. I would encourage you instead to get adequate lead wrist action in the release by starting your backswing with a small degree of lead wrist extension or hinging - with the intention to come into impact (the release phase) with even slightly more hinge or extension in the lead wrist. You need to learn to use lead wrist hinging to your advantage - as lead wrist cocking (a.k.a. Radial deviation) is only a secondary action to the hinging action. To obtain your maximum clubhead speed and to get the club from one side of your hands to the other side of your hands with maximum clubhead speed it is imperative that hinging be at the forefront of responsibility.

 

With your admitted strong following of The Golf Machine protocols you may think that my advice to use your lead wrist as I am suggesting - to slightly hinge during the backswing and again to hinge even more coming into impact - will encourage or produce a flipping action. It will not, as long as you don't cast or start your release way too early, or try to add speed by hitting with your right hand.

 

Your release technique needs to really focus on wrist hinging. Your lead wrist needs to be active, not restricted or bound-up trying to maintain a FLW. With the way your lead wrist is being used now the 'cocking' (what little bit you have at the base of your thumb) is not going to provide the type of wrist action you need for a sound golf swing. It's important for you to realize that there actually must be a degree of hinging to even get some cocking. Right now you lack both.     

 

[Edit] Below is an excellent video (by Padraig Harrington) I've added to this post that will explain exactly what I am trying to convey to you. If you will practice incorporating some significant lead wrist hinging (extension) in your golf swing I think you'll find that getting the club from one side of your hands to the other side of your hands feels more like a golf swing should feel. I suspect you'll also begin to feel your hands pivot or swivel or baton twirl as the club moves from behind the hands to in front of the hands (a.k.a. the crossover). You'll never feel that happen with your lead wrist locked-up the way it is now. 

 

If you are concerned about the hinging making you flip, don't be! 99.9% of what causes flipping is the right hand taking over or getting into the action by the golfer wrongly thinking he can add speed to his swing by hitting with his right hand. It's a learning process of how to use the lead wrist correctly (with hinging) without having the right hand take over and destroying its action. 

 

I hope this helps!           

 

 

 

 

 

          

Edited April 12, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
Added video to help explain

[GreatStrike]

Here is Part 2 of Padraig Harrington's video about wrists in the golf swing. I have purposely started this Part 2 video at a point beyond where he talks about bowing the lead wrist which I don't recommend.  

 

 

[GreatStrike]

Here is a video of Rory McIlroy swinging a driver at slower speeds. Notice Rory's very slight lead wrist hinging (extension or slight cupping) at the very beginning of his backswing to get the swing underway to load and build momentum. But also notice that Rory has a slight amount of lead wrist hinging (extension or cupping) as he releases the club (to get the club from one side of his hands to the other side of his hand) through impact. Without this intentional hinging (wrist extension) - as slight as it is - it would make his release action much different and not near as robust... 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[GreatStrike]

OK82 - Aaron, if you tried swinging the clubhead at near your maximum speed with the intended purpose to 'flip' at impact (without using your right hand to try to add clubhead speed which is the actual cause of your disastrous flipping) you'd come very close to making a very sound (near flawless) golf swing. Then, it's just a matter of controlling the face by learning to allow the lead hand/wrist to rotate or swivel-over (a.k.a. 'release' or let go) as the club moves from one side of your hands to the other side of you hands through impact.   

 

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[GreatStrike]

On 4/12/2022 at 8:39 PM, Hocus_Pocus said:

OK82 - Aaron, if you tried swinging the clubhead at near your maximum speed with the intended purpose to 'flip' at impact (without using your right hand to try to add clubhead speed which is the actual cause of your disastrous flipping) you'd come very close to making a very sound (near flawless) golf swing. Then, it's just a matter of controlling the face by learning to allow the lead hand/wrist to rotate or swivel-over (a.k.a. 'release' or let go) as the club moves from one side of your hands to the other side of you hands through impact.   

 

 

 

This video is David Blair's take on how the wrists are to work. Note that his lead wrist joint is loose and actually bowed just before allowing his lead wrist to move into unmistakable extension (hinging). 

 

  

[GreatStrike]

Ron T - Thanks!

 

I can't stress enough the absolute necessity for soft/loose wrists, especially the lead wrist which needs to be 'allowed' to 'freely let go' into extension (a.k.a. hinging). 

 

Watch the videos I've posted about how the wrists should work in the previous few posts. The primary takeaway from all these videos is fact that the wrists need to be really soft and pliable like the leather strap of a wheat thrashing flail...because the golf swing is based on the principle of a flail. Without a freely moving lead wrist joint that is allowed to fully hinge you might as well be swinging a golf club with an arm without joints.    

 

And, watch this video (below) as well. Pay particular attention to how his lead wrist freely releases or hinges (a.k.a extension). There is no manufactured or muscularly manipulated rolling or twisting of the wrists. You must have soft or loose wrists, especially the lead wrist if you ever want to generate decent clubhead speed, naturally square the clubface, create maximum compression on the ball, and produce the dynamics necessary for a sound golf swing. Otherwise, it's nothing but a stiff, over-controlled, manipulative, muscle-bound arm/shoulder lunge in an effort for the club to make contact with the golf ball.       

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

Edited April 17, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[BombinJim]

I just tried the pickle jar on a 9 hole escapade and was deeply impressed. I hit some fantastic shots. One in particular stood out as I laid back to center fairway off the tee on a par 4 and hit a crispy sizzling 6-iron that left the other folks in my group in awe asking what club I hit.

 

I will say that this release has seemingly stopped my early extension and has helped me eliminate my flip. I even have a nice finish and a trail hip/foot that just reacts to the swing as it pulls my body through. Every miss thus far has been left so I believe I just have to tone back the twist a little bit and I’ll be ok.

[GreatStrike]

4 hours ago, BombinJim said:

 

I just tried the pickle jar on a 9 hole escapade and was deeply impressed. I hit some fantastic shots. One in particular stood out as I laid back to center fairway off the tee on a par 4 and hit a crispy sizzling 6-iron that left the other folks in my group in awe asking what club I hit.

 

I will say that this release has seemingly stopped my early extension and has helped me eliminate my flip. I even have a nice finish and a trail hip/foot that just reacts to the swing as it pulls my body through. Every miss thus far has been left so I believe I just have to tone back the twist a little bit and I’ll be ok.

 

@ BombinJim 

 

Thanks for the message, Jim. 

 

I've enjoyed some 'low country boils' in your area...

 

Congrats on the impressive experience you're  having using the pickle jar technique.  It must be understood that there is a significant degree of timing involved using the pickle jar lid technique. It is not easy to acquire. This also sets off (causes) flipping for some people if not careful of their timing and how they go about doing it. It usually requires a ton of practice before good consistency becomes the norm. The pickle jar technique is a way to release and square the clubface but I really do not recommend that most people try to acquire it. It's not for everybody. You may have what it takes to handle it. Yes, you probably should tone back on the twist a little...and be judicious about when it begins.

 

As for your common 'flip' I'll post again soon as promised to address the difference between the common 'flip' that most amateurs are troubled with and what typically causes it versus the release method that most expert golfers have learned and what to do to acquire it. The superb, although mysterious, wrist action movement of expert golfers has always been somewhat a mystery and much puzzlement as to how they are able to do it.  Most amateurs end up either flipping or stiff-wristing it and not really 'releasing' at all - both causing low clubhead speed and poor clubface conditions. I hope to clear up the difference and how to achieve the wrist action movement that almost all elite golfers posses.           

 

 

   

Edited April 20, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[GreatStrike]

Quote

@ BombinJim - As for your common 'flip' I'll post again soon as promised to address the difference between the common 'flip' that most amateurs are troubled with and what typically causes it versus the release method that most expert golfers have learned and what to do to acquire it. The superb, although mysterious, wrist action movement of expert golfers has always been somewhat a mystery and much puzzlement as to how they are able to do it.  Most amateurs end up either flipping or stiff-wristing it and not really 'releasing' at all - both causing low clubhead speed and poor clubface conditions. I hope to clear up the difference and how to achieve the wrist action movement that almost all elite golfers posses.  

 

 

@ BombinJim

 

As promised, I'll address the difference between the common 'flip' that most amateurs are troubled with and what typically causes it versus the release method that most expert golfers have learned and what to do to acquire it.  

 

 

Let’s first define the common ‘flip’ and what typically causes it. Then, I will describe what the difference is between a sound or proper wrist release action compared to a ’flip and lastly I explain in detail how to actually accomplish a sound wrist release action like most elite golfers, including tour professionals, repeat with nearly all their full swings.

 

 

The common ‘flip’ occurs when the lead wrist hinges or bends into nearly full extension (the wrist bending into extension whereby the hand moves backwards toward the outside of the forearm. When this 'flip' lead wrist condition first begins to take place it actually begins happening a time point and distance point prior to when the clubface actually makes impact with the golf ball. The lead wrist angle opens and the clubhead drops downward which usually causes the dreaded fat shot. The ‘flip’ wrist action begins to happen before the lead wrist is aligned with the lead forearm (where the ‘snuff box’ points generally skyward).

 

Ideally, at impact the lead arm and the lead hand are aligned (with the ‘snuff box’ pointing generally skyward), with the back of the lead hand relatively flat. Though with a 'flip' the clubhead and clubface are ahead of the lead forearm at impact which presents an unstable clubhead and clubface with the laid-back clubface imparting greatly many more degrees of loft than the club’s actual designed loft. When a ‘flip’ swing is made all facets of a properly delivered clubhead and clubface are destroyed. (It needs to be pointed out that there is a time when a ‘flip’ type swing is intentionally made to produce certain, desired result (e.g. high lob with a laid-back, open clubface and the leading edge skillfully slid under the ball.) However, a normal full golf swing, pitch or chip does not conform to this inferior clubhead/clubface condition at impact when there is a 'flip' wrist/hand/forearm condition. I think every golfer quickly learns that a ‘flip’ is not desirable. So, what is the cause of a ‘flip’?

 

A ‘flip’ occurs when the golfer’s trail hand (usually the dominant hand) is intentionally or unwittingly used in an effort to add speed or power to their swing. It's the most common swing mistake amateurs make - and they make it over and over with the same poor results. It's a hard habit to break and frustrating not knowing how to release properly. The 'flip' is a push force on or against the lead hand coming from behind, which causes the lead wrist to break down or bend into extension.  The wrist can bend backward as much as 90 degrees. But during a 'flip' swing the lead wrist usually bends only about 22.5° to 45°, which is plenty enough to destroy the swing and the shot. 

 

The golf swing was invented to be made by using a pulling force from within - the inside moves the outside and the golf club is pulled through a circular semi-circle or arc in an inclined plane where the clubface is run into the ball. Likewise, the golf club was designed to be used with a pulling action on the handle by the lead hand. As they say, you can pull on a string, but you can’t push a string. And, It’s easy to pull a little red wagon around with its swivel joint handle, but next to impossible to control it if pushing on the handle as it will jackknife. If you have ever seen an 18-wheeler with a 40+ foot trailer jackknife, caused by a hit from the rear (or a heavy load shift toward the rear of the trailer) you know that both the truck's cab up front and the trailer being pulled behind the cab practically stops as the jackknife happens. Essentially, a jackknife condition is what happens to the golfer's swing when his lead wrist breaks down and opens the hinge angle so much into considerable extension. The club movement jackknifes. So, any pushing force from the rear by the trail hand on the lead hand must be kept at bay or made to somehow work without breaking down (bending) the lead wrist joint and having it jackknife. The latter not being easy to accomplish. To prevent flipping (jackknifing) some golfers use tension and muscle manipulation to overcome it or fight it off.

 

It would be amiss if I didn't mention that many handicap golfers have dodged the 'flip' by using a firm, muscularly controlled arm/wrist motion (I won't call it an 'action' because it's so slow moving.) It's kind of a stiff lead forearm/ wrist hold-off release method contrived to prevent 'flipping' that lacks clubhead speed and usually has at least some indication of chicken wing and delivers an open clubface. You'll recognize it by the golfer's inability to get his golf club fully from one side of his hands to the other side of his hands. In other words the wrists are generally locked-up with muscular tension and there is not much release to generate clubhead speed and stability.            

 

There is yet another way that the lead wrist can break down into a 'flip' condition without push interference from behind by the trail hand. The golfer can intentionally try to bend his lead wrist coming into the impact zone in an ill-conceived belief that a 'purposeful flip' might somehow achieve something a bit different that might deliver the clubhead/clubface to the ball in a better way. Well, would you believe that this golfer, purposely trying to bend or extend his lead wrist as he approaches impact, is closer to producing a sound wrist release than the golfer that tries to add speed and power by using his trail hand and forearm muscles and ends up considerably bending or extending his lead wrist? That’s right! That wrong-headed belief of purposely bending his lead wrist through impact is borderline magical!  I’ll explain more about this soon…

 

Who said; Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing'? I think it was none other than the great Ben Hogan that said that. We'll prove that Mr. Hogan's quote was amazingly correct at least when related to the release.  

 

For those handicap golfers that have played for a number of years - you have likely hit the random shot that looked like a tour player had hit it and the ball sounded like a sizzling, hissing bullet ricocheting off a tree trunk because the ball was hit so flush and compressed so much. It probably always happens when you least expect it. When that rare occasion happens the swing probably felt so different from your normal swing and also it felt uniquely powerful, yet it was so smooth like you magically transformed into a tour pro. Your wrists kind of had a different baton twirl, swivel type rollover action to them that literally came out of nowhere - that you couldn't understand how it happened because you know full-well that you did not 'make' it happen by doing anything muscularly! So, how did it just magically happen without you making it happen? - Why did it happen? You may have felt ‘lag’ for the first time with that swing. Your lead arm kind of folded a little differently with that swing. Your follow-through was different too. Even your balance felt different - your body was in perfect balance in the follow-through with no stumble or unsteadiness. You were absolutely amazed by the results of this shot - the sound, the way the ball flighted, maybe it had a soft draw...and it gave you the heebie-jeebies just reflecting on it, but you could not re-create that swing again to save your life, even though it had just happened and you know what it felt like to you. So, how did it happen? It was like magic! Here for one swing and gone... You’re thinking; how do I make it happen again - like with every time I swing?  I’m going to tell you how it happened, and I'm also going to explain how to learn to do it every swing. Stay tuned!  

 

Have you ever focused your attention on the tour professionals' hand action through impact? Especially when viewed from behind, down-the line. You see their hands appear to rollover or twist or swivel or tumble-over very quickly through the impact zone. It's a hand action that you've seen by the pros hundred of times but you can never duplicate it as hard as you try to roll your hands over or twist your lower forearms. Whatever it's called, their hand action gets their club from one side of their hands to the other side of their hands very quickly, producing lightning quick clubhead speed and no doubt perfect clubhead stability for amazing accuracy. Are the pros so strong and quick they can do that by twisting their forearms and hands? Just how do they do that? And what is it are they actually doing? What muscles are they using to do it? Wait! Some elite young, non-muscular junior golfers and small LPGA players do it too! So, it can't have anything to do with muscular strength. It must boil down to technique. What secret technique or method do they know that I don't know? You're about to find out...       

 

 

         

Edited April 21, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[Nard_S]

This thread is  like some rapper using digital farm to pump his crappy song on Spotify.

[GreatStrike]

10 hours ago, Nard_S said:

This thread is  like some rapper using digital farm to pump his crappy song on Spotify.

 

Remember the Ben Hogan quote? Remember the golfer that had the ill-conceived belief that maybe a 'purposeful flip' might somehow achieve something a bit different that might deliver the clubhead/clubface to the ball in a better way? That golfer was indeed right on the verge of finding ‘lightning in a bottle’! Here’s why, and how it is done…

 

Handicap golfers randomly hit wonderful shots at times for unknown reasons that replicates an elite golfer's swing results. It usually happens when the golfer makes an 'I don't care' swing or hits a casual lay up shot in which the golfer doesn't use his typical lumberjack muscular manipulation swing. Maybe he tried to hit an intentional slice or big fade. What happens is, the golfer relaxes and has minimal tension in his lower forearms and wrists or he allows his lead wrist to hinge a little bit through impact.        

 

To create or cause good hand action to happen - the golfer must actually ‘allow’ it to happen. The mystical hand action that most elite golfers with sound golf swings exhibit must start with the golfer having totally soft or relaxed/loose wrists. Without soft or relaxed/loose wrists it means the golfer is using considerable tension in the wrists and lower forearms in an effort to prevent the wrists and lower forearm from moving as a free-wheeling hinge joint much like a flail, which the golf swing replicates. (The golfer’s grip or hold on the club should absolutely not create tension in the wrists or lower forearms.) If you refuse to accept or acquire soft or relaxed/loose wrists you will not be able to achieve the hand action discussed that elite golfers enjoy. You'll be left to come up with some form or degree of muscular manipulation to swing move the golf club which stymies speed.

 

It's vital that the golfer introduce the slightest bit of lead wrist bend (hinging) or extension needed just before the moment the lead hand aligns with the lead forearm in the impact zone. When I say the slightest bit of lead wrist bend (hinging) I mean just that – so if a flat left wrist is zero degree bend or extension I’m talking about around 10-15 degrees of intentional bend or extension at the most – this is just enough bend or extension to trigger and start the process of good hand action - this allows your soft or relaxed/loose lead wrist to hinge a little bit further as the wrist/hand begins to roll/rotate/twirl around (i.e. hand action), which in–turn brings the club from behind the hands to in front of the hands like the action of a flail which by the way has no resistance at its joint.

 

This is all that is needed to acquire the hand action most elite golfers enjoy! It’s actually quite easy to learn and to accomplish, and to make it an element of every swing you make. Beyond swinging on-plane and having good fundamentals two very important keys are required: (1) soft or relaxed/loose wrists & (2) around 10 degrees of intentional bend or extension already employed just before impact at the point where the lead hand and lead forearm align. The combination of soft or relaxed/loose wrists and around 10 degrees of intentional bend or extension already employed just before impact is a trigger of sorts that promotes the hand action to start happening. Then it's just a matter letting it happen. The golfer should ‘allow’ and 'let' his hand action (roll/rotation/twirl) go ahead and happen without any muscular help or interference. You'll have probably around 45 degrees or more of lead wrist hinge at the P8 release position. Not as much hinge or bend as a flip would give but a significant amount of hinge/bend. So, your lead wrist begins intentionally hinging slightly before impact and is 'allowed' to hinge further through the impact zone.  Forget about having a flat left wrist (FLW) from P6 through P8. Forget about cocking your wrist (radial deviation) at the base of your lead thumb. You'll be using your freely-moving wrist hinging in a way that provides a top notch hand action release.        

 

Much has been said over the years about maintaining a flat left (lead) wrist (FLW) during the swing. This mandate has caused an untold number of golfers to not reach their potential.

 

Also, producing a bowed lead wrist through impact, which some instruction endorses, has been difficult and troublesome for most golfers to accomplish because they try to do it with muscular manipulation through impact which just adds unwanted tension. There is another beneficial feature that takes place during the time the golf club swings through impact when there is good hand action - the weight of golf club lags behind the hand action as it rolls/twist/twirls which causes the lead wrist to raise or bow a little from a dragging of the weight behind effect – this in-turn leads to a natural, positive delivery/impact dynamic position with a raised or slightly bowed lead wrist…a feature that many golfers have unsuccessfully tried to introduce into their swing, but by using muscular manipulation. Many of the tour pros exhibit a bowed lead wrist as there hands release and roll/twist/twirl through impact. Some may actively add a little bow muscularly but it happens naturally when the hand action release is as described.   

 

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by Hocus_Pocus
grammar

[Nard_S]

Insane!