Do you throw or twist?

[GreatStrike]

5 hours ago, KMeloney said:

GreatStrike -- Who are some of the most prominent "hitters" on Tour? I understand that there are certain rules/criteria associated with the hitting swing that make it effective, but it would be helpful for me to be able to see just how varied hitting swings can look from one to another (but still be considered hitting swings). For example, if both Holmes and Rham are hitters (I don't know that they are), then that would show me that it's ok to take the club back very vertically OR quite flat and laid off and still be able to be a hitter, or that you don't have to but certainly can really bow your lead wrist as part of the swing, etc. Otherwise, I'm in danger of thinking that the hitting swing has to look a certain way with little room for variation -- and if I don't have that image right to begin with, then I could be chasing my tail from the get-go.

 

@KMeloney -  Good question and viewpoint.     

 

I think it's almost impossible to say with any certainty that one golfer (tour player or amateur) specifically uses a 'hitting' or a 'swinging' technique/method. While I tend to agree with Dr. Kelley (TGM author) concerning the ideal standards associated [individually] with the 'hitting' and the 'swinging' golf swing there are just way too many individual variables to make saying that a particular golf swing is one method or the other. And, of course this inability to classify one method distinguished from the other just adds to the never-ending conundrum that is golf swing.

 

I'm of the opinion that while there are certain ideals for each method that there are really only a few absolute imperatives that need to be followed for each method, and even then its open to variation or personal adaptation. We have players with such a wide range of actions - and I'm not even talking about the wildly unorthodox swings like Jim Furyk or Matthew Wolff. There's Steve Stricker with very little wrist c0ck and there's Kuchar with a cupped lead wrist at impact, Garcia with his major dropdown shallowing move, DJ and Rahm with their excessively bowed lead wrists, Bubba with his clubshaft twisting, etc. There's simply no way to categorize some of the swings we see.  And, it's really impossible to determine if a golfer is pulling longitudinally on the handle/grip which indicates a 'swinging' golf swing or applying radial force to the side of the handle/grip that indicates a 'hitting' golf swing.                

 

When I view a golf swing I personally narrow my focus to a handful of things that I think likely sets a player's swing method (or traits) apart from another. I'll list some things I look for and you can probably pretty easily determine why I focus on these particular aspects or characteristics. But as you'll almost certainly understand, even my list of things I focus on are subject to wide variation.

 

Length of arm swing and upper torso turn in backswing (full may indicate swinging - short may indicate hitting) 

Soft/loose left wrist or solid arm/club structure in transition (Soft/loose likely indicates swinging - Solid structure likely indicates hitting)     

Degree of pelvic pivot (a lot may indicate swinging) 

Degree of lead forearm and clubface rotation in backstroke (a lot likely indicates swinging)   

Right shoulder move closer to ball for downstroke (likely an indication of preparing launch pad for hitting)

Is trail wrist bend retained through impact (likely an indication of hitting but often hard to determine)

Post impact arms extending out toward target or exiting 45° left of target line (indicates likely swinging vs likely hitting respectively) 

Amount of time given in transition (fast vs slow start down (likely indicates swinging vs hitting respectively) 

Down-cocking in transition (indicates swinging)

Light, soft passive grip appearance or firm grip appearance at address and start of backstroke (likely swinging vs hitting respectively)

Light/loose/passive appearance (or off the grip) trail hand vs firm trail hand grip appearance at impact (indicates likely swinging vs hitting respectively)

Lead forearm and wrist swivel/roll action through impact vs minimal/no action (indicates likely swinging vs hitting respectively)

 

So, as you can probably surmise from this above list there is likely some overlap and nonexclusive (wide-ranging) elements in all golf swings, making it practically impossible to categorize a golfer into being solely a swinger or solely a hitter, but some I believe will definitely favor one more than the other.

 

For example; I think Fred Couples, Phil Mickelson and Vijay Singh are mostly in the 'swinging' category (with their trial hands off the grip indicating with certainty their trail hand is not applying radial force on the grip through impact). I would also categorize Bubba Watson as a swinger with his backswing length and pivot rotation, and John Daly too with his enormous backswing - both by the way with impeccable and uncanny ability to control their clubface. Others I would put in the 'swinging' category are Sam Snead, Payne Stewart, Rickie Fowler, Ian Poulter, Sergio Garcia and Lucas Glover (with his down-c0ck). I think Cam Smith has more 'swinging' traits than 'hitting' traits (mainly because it appears his arm/hand/club structure gets a bit loose and wobbly at the top and he appears to have a lot of passive forearm/wrist swivel through impact).

 

On the 'hitting' category side I think Arnold Palmer clearly had a very decisive, though somewhat unorthodox, 'hitting' golf swing. I think Ben Hogan's golf swing very much favored 'hitting' (and I was personally told by a 20 year playing partner of Ben Hogan that Hogan purposely straightened his right arm in the downstroke to give it a right hand hit). I think Jon Rahm, JB Holmes, Ryan Palmer, Brooks Koepka, Dustin Johnson, Henrik Stenson, Bryson DeChambeau, Steve Stricker, Patrick Reed, Tony Finau, Louis Oosthuizen and Rory McIlroy all have a lot of 'hitting' traits.

 

Let me know what you think...            

 

       

 

      

Edited November 3, 2022 by GreatStrike
grammar

[KMeloney]

Thanks, GreatStrike. Good to know that there are plenty of ways to get it done.

[GreatStrike]

2 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

Thanks, GreatStrike. Good to know that there are plenty of ways to get it done.

 

Clearly, but some far easier to learn and adapt to. 

[virtuoso]

Hi Jerry,

 

Thank you for the encouragement and the thoughtful questions about my progress. I'm not really the expert here. Great Strike is the resident guru, but what I'm getting so far is that the hit method is the easier method to repeat but ultimately not the best method for the high level golf. I'm currently doing the swing method because there will be more free flow and speed to the release, but you have to time it better. I have extremely good hand eye coordination, so I will work to master the timing. Right now, the timing is better if I try to get the toe of the club pointed at the target a soon as possible. Then I get the high draw action. But, if you're a higher handicap guy, you may want to grip it tight and not use the free hinge. And then you try to push the right arm the straight at at the ball. Its basically like a shotput action. Obviously, you wouldn't see an MLB player shotput the baseball if they were pitching for speed, but maybe its more accurate for some people. But Great strike can expand deeper on what I just said. But that's basically the gist.

Edited November 3, 2022 by virtuoso

[GreatStrike]

21 hours ago, KMeloney said:

Thanks, GreatStrike. Good to know that there are plenty of ways to get it done.

 

@KMeloney - Here's a video of Rory warming-up at the range, going through the bag.

 

Some things about Rory's golf swing to focus on that I think are observable 'hitting' traits:

 

There is a display he extends his right arm on his left thumb in the early backstroke to get the structure underway and keep the left arm straight.

The lead arm and clubface rotation in the backstroke is minimal and no extra - only the amount of rotation alone his backstroke induces. 

There is a distinct right shoulder move down-plane at start of downstroke to get it loser to the ball.

There is a distinct display of the right hand applying radial force to the side of the grip. 

The swing is fast but not hurried or jerked - he gives it plenty of ample time.  

There is a solid arms/hands/club structure with a very solid grip maintained throughout the swing.

The trail wrist bend is maintained flawlessly throughout the entire swing and in particular through impact. 

Right arm straightens with a forceful driving action in lieu of the right arm just going along for the ride and straightening in a free-flowing/lackluster way.  

The hands, arms and club remain on the downstroke arc path post-impact and exits 45° left of target line in lieu of extending out toward target.

 

Right arm straightening on left thumb

  

 

Right hand applying force on side of grip

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by GreatStrike
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[KMeloney]

14 hours ago, virtuoso said:

...but what I'm getting so far is that the hit method is the easier method to repeat but ultimately not the best method for the high level golf. I'm currently doing the swing method because there will be more free flow and speed to the release, but you have to time it better.

 

But, if you're a higher handicap guy, you may want to grip it tight and not use the free hinge.

 

Obviously, you wouldn't see an MLB player shotput the baseball if they were pitching for speed, but maybe its more accurate for some people.

 

Where are you getting that "hitting" is slower and not good for high-level golf?

[virtuoso]

1 hour ago, KMeloney said:

 

Where are you getting that "hitting" is slower and not good for high-level golf?

I thought Great S was saying that the hit method is a drive release instead of a whipping release, and the whipping release seems like it would be more of a faster blur, but you have to have good hand-eye coordination to manage the free hinge. But that seems to be the way that the big bosses on tour do it. But I may be way off track.

[GreatStrike]

1 hour ago, virtuoso said:

I thought Great S was saying that the hit method is a drive release instead of a whipping release, and the whipping release seems like it would be more of a faster blur, but you have to have good hand-eye coordination to manage the free hinge. But that seems to be the way that the big bosses on tour do it. But I may be way off track.

 

@virtuoso - I think you're way off track with the 'seems like' and  'seems to be' beliefs. 

 

Perhaps input from @KMeloney would be more meaningful than mere assumptions since he has been a good test case with his recent experience with both methods.   

[virtuoso]

21 minutes ago, GreatStrike said:

 

@virtuoso - I think you're way off track with the 'seems like' and  'seems to be' beliefs. 

 

Perhaps input from @KMeloney would be more meaningful than mere assumptions since he has been a good test case with his recent experience with both methods.   

Yeah, I think you may be right, because I’m still flipping like crazy. Do you think if I start gripping it and driving it with my right arm that I can get rid of the flip but not loose speed? I like John Daly’s swing. He has a lot of speed but doesn’t flip. It seems like he keeps his right elbow tucked into his side through impact. If you said he was a swinger and not a hitter, that would seem to be my ideal. Keep the right elbow bent and tucked through the ball.

[Millbrook]

I am not being obtuse or provocative but I thought you promoted a swinging action - the Dan Martin videos - yet you are now promoting a hitting action.

 

Am I mistaken or have I missed something?

[GreatStrike]

36 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Yeah, I think you may be right, because I’m still flipping like crazy. Do you think if I start gripping it and driving it with my right arm that I can get rid of the flip but not loose speed? I like John Daly’s swing. He has a lot of speed but doesn’t flip. It seems like he keeps his right elbow tucked into his side through impact. If you said he was a swinger and not a hitter, that would seem to be my ideal. Keep the right elbow bent and tucked through the ball.

 

Geez! Go for whatever you think makes sense...

[GreatStrike]

On 11/4/2022 at 12:56 PM, Millbrook said:

I am not being obtuse or provocative but I thought you promoted a swinging action - the Dan Martin videos - yet you are now promoting a hitting action.

 

Am I mistaken or have I missed something?

 

@Millbrook - No problem, I can understand why you ask the question.  

 

I was not 'promoting' a 'swinging' action - I was discussing and offering help with it and often used Dan Martin's videos for help since he is obviously a proponent for the 'swinging' method - or maybe he designed his 'The Pro' training aid to help golfers learn a 'swinging' golf swing - since most all golfers are taught or try [usually unsuccessfully] to use the 'swinging' method. Likewise, I am not necessarily promoting the 'hitting' method either, but instead discussing and offering help with it much the same as I have done with the 'swinging'  method. I have actually given my opinion many times throughout this lengthy thread (which I suspect you may have missed) on which method I personally think is the easiest and likely the best for the typical amateur golfer, but I don't consider that to be promoting one method over the other as much as me just being honestly constructive and offering my opinion.     

 

I think I've been upfront and clear in my opinion pertaining to both swing methods - that a 'swinging' golf swing based exclusively on centrifugal-centripetal force is clearly very delicate (easily upset or jerked out of orbit) and extremely difficult to learn and to deal with, whereas a 'hitting' golf swing is much easier to learn and to deal with. Just the multitude of discussions about the difficulty of getting a centrifugal-centripetal force 'swinging' golf swing [even] started by pulling on the clubshaft longitudinally should have set the record straight that I'm not necessarily an advocate of the 'swinging' method, nor suggest the method should be learned. 

 

I somewhat thought my discussions in this thread would have made it clear I was not promoting the 'swinging' method when I repeatedly mentioned the commonly accepted necessity for golfers using a 'swinging' golf swing to physically square the clubface, deal with extra forearm rotation, shallowing, etc. and about how most people that try to use a 'swinging' golf swing typically cast, flip, swing OTT, etc. because their dominant arm/hand wants to takeover control and/or add speed due to the weaker, non-dominant side being in charge.

 

You probably missed it but early-on in this thread I acknowledged my agreement with former tour player John 'Lag Pressure' Erickson about his opinion of the two very different swing methods, with 'Lag' having played competitively on tour using both swing methods notably supportive of the 'hitting' method. 

 

I hope this clears it up for you...  

 

 

     

Edited November 5, 2022 by GreatStrike
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[KMeloney]

2 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Yeah, I think you may be right, because I’m still flipping like crazy. Do you think if I start gripping it and driving it with my right arm that I can get rid of the flip but not loose speed? I like John Daly’s swing. He has a lot of speed but doesn’t flip. It seems like he keeps his right elbow tucked into his side through impact. If you said he was a swinger and not a hitter, that would seem to be my ideal. Keep the right elbow bent and tucked through the ball.

 

I don't think you're fully understanding the concept. Check out this video, especially starting at the 1:30 mark:

 

 

The split-hand pumping-down action would be a pointless exercise for Rory if he didn't power the shaft with a right-arm-straightening motion. And Rory is one of the (if not THE) longest hitters on tour.

 

[GreatStrike]

It would be interesting to hear from a former Senior PGA Tour player, Bruce Lehnhard - @blehnhard - about his view of 'hitting' versus 'swinging' and the method he feels that he uses, if he will be kind enough to share his thoughts with us.      

 

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by GreatStrike
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[GreatStrike]

This is an interesting and quite accurate synopsis of the 'hitting' method to describe Kenny Perry's golf swing.

 

Note: In the 2020-2021 PGA Tour Champions season Kenny Perry averaged 288.2 yards driving distance at 60 years of age. In 2017 Kenny Perry was ranked fourth at 295 yards. 

 

In the golf instruction world, Kenny Perry would be considered more of a "hitter" of the ball because of how he actively straightens his right arm on the downswing. This straightening effort of the right arm is oftentimes overlooked in an otherwise sound golf swing, but it's very apparent with Perry's move because of how flat footed his feet are at impact. With a less active lower body at impact, Perry uses his right arm on the downswing as his major source of power and control.

 

The best way to describe his right arm on the downswing is that it is 'pushing down and out'. 'Pushing down' allows the right arm to actively straighten while maintaining its bend in the right wrist. This feeling is no different than if you were to try to push something into the ground with your right arm. Maintaining the bend in the right wrist is a fundamental with any good swing as it allows the club shaft to return forward at impact resulting in a club head that is descending and accelerating through the impact zone. Most amateurs do not accomplish this and release the right wrist too soon resulting in a poor and inconsistent impact. For those who struggle with this issue, the described 'pushing down' of the right arm should become more of a conscious effort.

 

'Out' is the second half of the equation as it directs the right arm to deliver the club head from the inside. Most amateurs need to feel as if they are driving the right arm not only 'down', but 'out'. I oftentimes describe this feeling as if the right arm is being directed more towards right field. A lot of amateurs struggle with an over-the-top move that delivers the club head to impact too far from outside the target line. Moving the aim point more towards right field on an imaginary baseball diamond will allow for a much more effective approach from the inside as the club head reaches impact.

 

► Article Reference

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by GreatStrike
grammar

[virtuoso]

4 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

Geez! Go for whatever you think makes sense...

Well, I think keeping my right elbow tucked in through the ball hit might be good because if I kinda shotput it down with my right arm i enter the flip zone. Jerry and Fred are both following along with this thread and they think we are being way too complicated. But Jerry especially is very supportive of me trying to get to the plus handicap range. I'm breaking 80 pretty much every time now but I need to start breaking 70. With my athletic skills I should be doing that already but I think I've gotten a lot of bad advice, so I was hoping you could kinda mentor me down to the under par range. I just need to apply what you and KMeloney are saying to my mechanics, but I wanted to make sure that I didn't do the hit method if that's more for choppers with bad hand-eye coordination. I think I'll try the hit method and test it. If I don't lose distance and I can shot-make with it, I'll give it a go. What do you think of that plan of action?

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by virtuoso

[virtuoso]

2 hours ago, KMeloney said:

I don't think you're fully understanding the concept. Check out this video, especially starting at the 1:30 mark:

 

The split-hand pumping-down action would be a pointless exercise for Rory if he didn't power the shaft with a right-arm-straightening motion. And Rory is one of the (if not THE) longest hitters on tour.

Dude! That makes total sense. Why haven't people told me about that?! That totally shows what I'm supposed to do with the right arm.

 

(Fred, if you are following along, you should do this also. You get your right arm behind you like Rory, so this would make sense for you. You said you try to swing from the inside but you do it way too much. Jerry, not you though--you are super OTT. You guys should both get on this thread and join in.)

 

So the plan now is go full hit model and do the split arm drill. Should I hit balls doing that or just do the drill to get the feel?

 

 

[virtuoso]

24 minutes ago, GreatStrike said:

This is an interesting and quite accurate synopsis of the 'hitting' method to describe Kenny Perry's golf swing.

 

Note: in the 2020-2021 PGA Champions Tour season Kenny Perry averaged 288.2 yards at 60 years of age. 

 

In the golf instruction world, Kenny Perry would be considered more of a "hitter" of the ball because of how he actively straightens his right arm on the downswing. This straightening effort of the right arm is oftentimes overlooked in an otherwise sound golf swing, but it's very apparent with Perry's move because of how flat footed his feet are at impact. With a less active lower body at impact, Perry uses his right arm on the downswing as his major source of power and control.

 

The best way to describe his right arm on the downswing is that it is 'pushing down and out'. 'Pushing down' allows the right arm to actively straighten while maintaining its bend in the right wrist. This feeling is no different than if you were to try to push something into the ground with your right arm. Maintaining the bend in the right wrist is a fundamental with any good swing as it allows the club shaft to return forward at impact resulting in a club head that is descending and accelerating through the impact zone. Most amateurs do not accomplish this and release the right wrist too soon resulting in a poor and inconsistent impact. For those who struggle with this issue, the described 'pushing down' of the right arm should become more of a conscious effort.

 

'Out' is the second half of the equation as it directs the right arm to deliver the club head from the inside. Most amateurs need to feel as if they are driving the right arm not only 'down', but 'out'. I oftentimes describe this feeling as if the right arm is being directed more towards right field. A lot of amateurs struggle with an over-the-top move that delivers the club head to impact too far from outside the target line. Moving the aim point more towards right field on an imaginary baseball diamond will allow for a much more effective approach from the inside as the club head reaches impact.

 

► Article Reference

 

 

 

Ok, so wait a minute, if Kenny is doing the hit move and Rory is doing the hit move, but Rory doesn't want to swing too inside, then I guess he has to have the down move but forget the out move?

[virtuoso]

Kyle, I know you are reading this even though you think it is all BS, but be prepared to need shots tomorrow...and try to have matching socks this time.

[GreatStrike]

16 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Well, I think keeping my right elbow tucked in through the ball hit might be good because if I kinda shotput it down with my right arm i enter the flip zone. Jerry and Fred are both following along with this thread and they think we are being way too complicated. But Jerry especially is very supportive of me trying to get to the plus handicap range. I'm breaking 80 pretty much every time now but I need to start breaking 70. With my athletic skills I should be doing that already but I think I've gotten a lot of bad advice, so I was hoping you could kinda mentor me down to the under par range. I just need to apply what you and KMeloney are saying to my mechanics, but I wanted to make sure that I didn't do the hit method if that's more for choppers with bad hand-eye coordination. I think I'll try the hit method and test it. If I don't lose distance and I can shot-make with it, I'll give it a go. What do you think of that plan of action?

 

 

Where have you gotten the bad advice from? 

 

With all the helpful information and advice posted recently, along with your praiseworthy athletic skills and hand-eye coordination, you should have everything needed to get started to hopefully reach your goal.  Your biggest hurdle may be your playing buddies, at least one of them (Kyle) you say thinks this is BS!     

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by GreatStrike
grammar

[GreatStrike]

 

This is an interesting nugget that is in total accord with my view that most golfers try to use their left arm more than necessary - and that most amateurs should be taught (properly trained) the 'hitting' golf swing method to take advantage of their dominant right arm to move the entire clubshaft on-plane (unlike the commonly taught 'swinging' golf swing) throughout the entire swing.: 

 

At the Tour Academies, we emphasize the importance of the right arm. The perception of most golfers is to try to do more than necessary with their left arm. The reality is that the right arm is in command in the swing, and when trained properly, it will straighten out the left arm. Most amateurs should be taught to be more of a hitter so that the right arm can be fully trained to move the entire clubshaft on-plane throughout the swing.

 

Article Reference

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by GreatStrike
grammar

[Millbrook]

22 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

@Millbrook - No problem, I can understand why you ask the question.  

 

I was not 'promoting' a 'swinging' action - I was discussing and offering help with it and often used Dan Martin's videos for help since he is obviously a proponent for the 'swinging' method - or he designed his 'The Pro' training aid to help golfers learn a 'swinging' golf swing - since most all golfers are taught or try [unsuccessfully] to use the 'swinging' method. Likewise, I am not necessarily promoting the 'hitting' method, but discussing and offering help with it much the same as I have done with the 'swinging'  method. I have given my opinion many times throughout this lengthy thread (which I suspect you may have missed) on which method I personally think is easiest and likely the best for the typical amateur golfer, but I don't consider that to be promoting one method over the other as much as me just being honestly constructive and offering my opinion.     

 

I think I've been upfront and clear in my opinion pertaining to both swing methods - that a 'swinging' golf swing based exclusively on centrifugal-centripetal force is clearly very delicate (easily upset or jerked out of orbit) and extremely difficult to learn and to deal with, whereas a 'hitting' golf swing is much easier to learn and to deal with. Just the multitude of discussions about the difficulty of getting a centrifugal-centripetal force 'swinging' golf swing [even] started by pulling on the clubshaft longitudinally should have set the record straight that I'm not necessarily an advocate of the 'swinging' method or suggest the method.

 

I somewhat thought my discussions in this thread would have made it clear I was not promoting the 'swinging' method when I repeatedly mentioned the commonly accepted practice for golfers using a 'swinging' golf swing to physically square the clubface, forearm rotation, shallowing, etc. and about how most people that try to use a 'swinging' golf swing typically cast, flip, swing OOT, etc. because of their dominant arm/hand wanting take over and/or add speed due to the weaker, non-dominant side being in charge.

 

You probably missed it but early-on in this thread I acknowledged my agreement with former tour player John 'Lag Pressure' Erickson about his opinion of the two very different swing methods, with 'Lag' having played competitively on tour using both swing methods notably supportive of the 'hitting' method. 

 

I hope this clears it up for you...  

 

 

     

Thank you it does. No criticism was intended.

[virtuoso]

6 hours ago, GreatStrike said:

 

Where have you gotten the bad advice from? 

 

With all the helpful information and advice posted recently, along with your praiseworthy athletic skills and hand-eye coordination, you should have everything needed to get started to hopefully reach your goal.  Your biggest hurdle may be your playing buddies, at least one of them (Kyle) you say thinks this is BS!     

Well, yeah, Kyle is one of my golf buddies but he is like my arch nemesis. Even this morning I was hitting the ball like a boss doing what you said. I just tried the straighten the right arm right from the top and basically turn it into a ram rod at impact. But, I even tried it on a pitch shot and I double hit the ball. Kyle started calling me Nicky “Two Times”.  I still shot 78 with four 3-jacks which is obviously good ball striking but kinda fell apart at the end.

 

[GreatStrike]

Terry - I'm really glad to hear about your much improved game and better scoring. That does not surprise me in the least.

 

Yes, it's nice knowing that shots aren't going to be much off line, and knowing what it takes to flush it brings incredible confidence.      

 

Probably the reason you aren't as worn out after playing 18 holes (and could easily go another 18) is because now you aren't pivoting, twisting and rotating your body as much. By not having to physically sling your arms and manipulate the clubshaft on-plane and square the clubface through impact saves a not of energy you typically have used. Give credit to yourself - you are the one that deserves it. 

 

Enjoy Pinehurst #2 and #5, and check out Mid Pines and Pine Needles while in the area...          

  

[GreatStrike]

@KMeloney - I know you are interested in the 'hitting' golf swing method so this should attract your attention.

 

Watch how Henrik Stenson beautifully retains his bent-back right wrist throughout the backstroke and downstroke, but in particular take note that his right wrist retains the bent-back condition through impact indicating he is applying right arm (PA#1) piston force to the grip via the base of his left thumb (PP#1) at the point of impact. There is absolutely no passive hand/wrist swivel release like needed with a 'swinging' golf swing. In the same vein, it appears he straightens his right arm a little to apply some push pressure to the left thumb in order to solidify his arms/club structure and start it moving in the backstroke. There's no visible sign of his left hand primarily levering the club back by itself like is commonplace with some 'swinging' golf swings.  Note also his right shoulder moving down plane in the early downstroke to prepare for launch!    

 

Of particular interest is how his left arm and clubshaft remain on the same deep downstroke arc plane in the early follow-through (i.e. at both arms straight) indicating he has a 'hitting' golf swing. No wonder he compresses the ball so forcefully and his impact makes a different sound than some other tour players.         

 

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by GreatStrike
grammar

[GreatStrike]

Hayes - You are trying to make your clubhead travel really fast through the impact zone where it will make contact with the golf ball. With that primary intention your mission is almost certainly to sling the clubhead from in front of your right foot to in front of your left foot, and toward the target. This incites the lead wrist to breakdown and a flip happens. When contact is made with such a swing the loft is even more than the club's static loft.

 

The dynamics of a sound golf  is far more than just attempting to produce blazing clubhead speed when impacting the golf ball. What you are missing is the part that smashes (compresses) the golf ball flush with a straighter (delofted) clubface. When you swing correctly a byproduct of a sound golf swing is blazing clubhead speed at impact, whereas with a flawed golf swing clubhead speed will never reach the golfer's potential. 

 

Consider how your intent to create a high clubhead speed causes some very damaging things to happen in your swing. Your clubface makes contact with the golf ball (at best) with just the static loft (the loft on the physical club itself) - when you don't flip excessively and hit fat behind the ball. Your clubface is rarely ever square at impact  and your out-to-in swing path coming from over-the-top causes impact to be a glancing blow instead of the clubface arriving at impact in square alignment.

 

Your golf swing is reminiscent of most amateur's golf swings, which usually begins its downward journey from the very outset with the golfer's original thought and intention to swing hard and to make the clubhead travel really fast at impact. If only a golfer's beginner's instruction and intention was instead to lay a delofted clubface on the ball using adequate shaft lean with a bent-back maintained trail wrist there wouldn't be so many frustrated and dumbfounded amateur golfers with high handicaps... 

 

          

Edited November 26, 2022 by GreatStrike
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[GreatStrike]

Hayes - Totally forget about clubhead speed for a moment and consider this - pick one of the following two methods of moving the golf club that offers you the best opportunity to deliver both of these critically important impact conditions: a stable delofted clubface by means of adequate shaft lean and a square clubface.

 

Which one will be it?

(1) Pulling on the endcap of the club's grip 

(2) Pushing on the side of the club's grip 

 

After choosing the best method then, and only then, should you decide how best to provide reasonable clubhead speed while delivering those critically important impact conditions. But to be very clear, until you learn to deliver those two critically important impact conditions the matter of clubhead speed is literally at the bottom of the list of priorities. When you finally realize and accept this, the better-off you will be and it will jumpstart your improvement and progress very quickly. But you must learn this yourself first-hand.     

[rondo01]

I’m 14 pages into the thread and was super exited to hit the range today to primarily investigate the trail arm twist referenced back in pages 2-4ish, and try out a few different feels. My hunch was that I’ve been trapped in no man’s land between swing/hit. 
 

Results were literally instant. Lead side pull along the shaft + backswing twist = whole new world. Tried the right side, but it was fat shot city. The most bizarre feeling is gently pulling the club along the shaft and seeing/feeling the ball explode. Looking forward to training, I suppose, a swinging motion, to finishing the thread and eventually joining the convo. 

[virtuoso]

I did an adjustment to the hit method and now I'm tearing the cover off that mofo. It's an adaptation to the hit method described here by G-Strike, but more for higher level players. I call it the Ram-Rod technique. You basically try to make your entire right arm dead straight right from the top. You only have a spilt second to do it so you have go full ram-rod with the right arm, and also the right wrist. You try to make it entirely straight before impact. And then you can compress the bottom of the ball, which gives you great height on the shot. Its been a complete game changer.

 

There are other more advanced things that make this easier to accomplish, like trying to keep your belt buckle pointed at the ball through impact because that is part of the way you match your hip kick to the ramrod, but I don't want to make it too complicated to understand.

 

Hayes, I would definitely keep listening to Great Strike because he is a hit guru too, but I'm happy to help also. Just a tip, if you push on the side of the grip like I do, you want to make sure you get the wrist straight before the elbow, otherwise you'll have too much shaft lean forward. You basically want the shaft straight up and down at ball impact. I think Great-Strike is promoting a more of a low punch shot for control...but I like to add some zip and take it up where mama hides the cookies.

 

G-Strike, would you agree that you are going for more of a 3/4 knock down approach to the iron shots? Just want to make sure we are on the same page.

[mocokid]

On 6/4/2020 at 10:04 PM, GreatStrike said:

Another good video pertaining to twisting the forearm/wrist/hand to improve square contact and compression.

 

 

I had worked before on the bowed wrist with an instructor, but did not have this degree of detail.  Now have a better understanding, bend, hinge and twist the right hand and wrist.  I hit some chips with the right wrist bent and twisted in the address position before start of back swing.  Impact was pure.  For the full swing I start the downswing by swinging the club with my ams away from the target for best results. Seems to shallow out and get a good path that way.  Pulling the club to start the downswing did not work so well.  Just make sure my butt stays back (no ee). Thanks Great strike!!