Should rabbits get the first tee times? Yes a rant

[DonatelloNobodie]

Who determines which groups are "turtles" and which are "rabbits"? At my club, every group thinks that they are fast, and will vehemently argue that point. (Like Lake Wobegon, everyone is above average...)

[jvincent]

Here is our policy.

7:00 am to 8:00 am – all rounds completed in 3 hours and 30 minutes (or less);8:00 am to 9:00 am – all rounds completed in 3 hours and 45 minutes (or less);9:00 and beyond – all rounds completed in Sub 4 hours.This year I haven't had a round over 3:45 and I never tee off before 9AM if I can help it. I like my sleepy time. That includes mid-week afternoon rounds which are busier than usual because every is off / working from home right now.

[Under2hours]

And there is the perfect answer. We have a course here (ranked top 10 in the Country) that does that. Our course puts gps on bags (well pre-COVID) and sent letters to those lagging. The Staff certainly know the slow players, the one's in money games and the dawdlers..... Heck the other dew sweepers (when tee off is 6:30) would laugh when they were slotted ahead of us and either told us to go ahead of them on the first tee or waved us through come the third hole.....

[Bonneville85308]

Where is this club and is it accepting new members? Sign me up!

[az2au]

There are at least two clubs in the Valley that have very similar policies (and I’m guessing a lot more).

[BNGL]

No he shouldn’t, because again cheating the sheet for the benefit of one isn’t a good idea. The lottery is there for all members and all must abide by the rules

A good professional should realize who’s playing where in the sheet and then facilitate on behalf of the member is Under2hours comes to him with this problem, BUT that’s it. So here’s how it should go down:

caniac6 you have won the first time at 0700, I have the second at 0710 and Under2 has the third at 0720. The pro realizing under2 plays polo rather than golf, should approach you at check in and say something like this, “Mr. Caniac6, great to see you how are you doing today sir? Excellent I hope everyone is safe and well? That’s great. Hey if I may ask a small favor of you, this tee time lottery we do it for the benefit of every member and it’s not perfect but it’s the system we came up and we’re sticking to it, but the gentleman with the third time is known as polo player and I would be curious if you wouldn’t mind trading places with him on the tee sheet? He’s the third time out at 0720? You wouldn’t? Thank you so much Mr. Caniac6.

the pro is there to facilitate, not cheat the system on behalf of a member.

[BNGL]

You’re that member because, as I understand it, you want the lottery system rules bent to favor you when they are the same and implemented for the benefit of all members. Furthermore you continue to beg ignorance that you don’t understand why someone would get that impression of you...there’s strike two in my experience at private clubs. If members wanna wave you up great more power to them, although I’m not sure if you’re course has the now wave up policy or someone in the thread mentioned it either totally dumb, but regardless that’s why I believe you’re that member. It’s fine every club has some.

[caniac6]

That’s kind of where I was going with my earlier post, but doing it without having to manipulate any of the other tee times. Both approaches would benefit the op, and, by getting him out of the way, the rest of the folks playing early.

[MtlJeff]

Policy of sub 4 for all rounds? Wow that's ambitious, and surprising that the club can maintain that based on what you're saying.

Our club doesn't have an official policy but unofficially tries to put the same logic into the times

If you tee off at 10am though, you will likely play in 4:15 ~. Sometimes shorter, but sometimes longer, especially on Fridays when guys are boozing it up

I typically play at ~7AM and my group usually plays in 3hrs, i would say the first 7-8 groups play in <3:30

[jvincent]

Our pace target used to be 4:15 but they changed it when we moved to 9 min tee times. PoP has never really been an issue, other than Men's night which is an exception because we run a crossover with 8 min spacings. Of course no men's night this year.

[davep043]

To me, the difference is in whether the results of the lottery system are being modified by the consent of the groups involved, or being overridden by the sole authority of the pro. I agree with @BNGL , this works best when the pro works within the system to try to keep as many people as possible happy. It definitely has the least potential to get the pro into hot water for appearing to cater to one specific group's wishes.

[Under2hours]

Again much of this is due to COVID-19. When tee offs are 6:30 or 7:00 am & yep we have been 3rd in that scenario too and always been waved through or told to take the first tee time when most people arrived 30-40 minutes prior to tee times & we're milling around the locker room or proshop. Some COVID-19 rules here were/are "Arrive no earlier then 20 minutes prior to tee off, no Waving through & play all holes in order (at end of day some people when course not crowded would play different holes where there is a gap)".

And absolutely under no circumstances should notoriously slow groups be put out early. Our course is an easy 3:45 POP (though card states 4:15).

Do people not read the posts explaining that? And again so what if I play polo, would you rather be behind me or Ben Crane/Bryson DeChambeau/JB Holmes/Kevin Na?

[Greenie]

Under2hours as long as the groups are keeping up with POP it probably doesn't matter right now to the members how fast you play or where you are in the order. There is no playing through so they don't have to deal with letting you through. The lottery system is giving some the chance to play early when before certain members as you rushed to get that first time in as soon as possible. Now everyone wants a tee time. I'm sure many of them want to play early and get home early too. If I got the first time at 7 and I play in 4 hrs. I'll get done at 11. If I switched my 7:00 time with your say 7:20 time now I'm getting done at 11:20. I'd rather be done at 11:00. Now If I could let you jump out ahead of my 7:00 time I would. With the spread out times POP shouldn't be a problem for the average golfer.

 

I'm in the same situation as you but my course is public. I've been playing the same course for the last three yrs. The first tee time is 7am. After building up a relationship at this course they figured out my group played faster than the average groups in the AM. They allowed us to tee off at 6:45. They already had another fast group go off before 7. We soon decided the other group was a bit faster than us so we flipped start times allowing the other group to go off first then us. This year after COVID-19 reopening we were told we couldn't go off early any more and would have to make a tee time. We were told they were fully booked'each day, they couldn't play favorites and they expected POP to be faster with the COVID-19 rules to reopen in place. With the course adding $29 to their 2020 rates after COVID I had no problem moving on.

 

 

 

[Schley]

Agree.

To make it fair to the entire membership they are doing a lottery system already to get people out as equally as they can. Why in the hell does any member get any favoritism for tee times? THEY SHOULDN'T plain and simple. I would be PISSED at our director of golf, head pro, whoever is responsible for this, if allowed. As long as anyone is playing at the POP mandated, I don't give a rat's ass how fast you want to play. Have some respect for the rules and regulations of "the club", not "your club". I mean apply this to any number of things, why don't we reserve the closest parking space for you, closest locker, reserved place on the range? You requested it, so then it should be done right?

Learn to live with others within the parameters of your clubs policies, not try and complain when they aren't bent for you.

[BNGL]

Dang...Schley be like....

 

[Hawkeye77]

I get it and when the lottery is over you can return to normal, but is it they recognize that you should go first out of deference or is there some reason nobody wants you behind them?

As for polo, I guess it depends more on what the back end of the horse looks like.

[Under2hours]

And again we're 4th tee time or later, I get it..... Some of you think I've asked to jump 10 groups. I have not. I only said if second or third...... And this thread started 2+ weeks ago and it was also questioning why they moved to one hour blocks, but allowed more then those who could be accommodated (i.e. 6 foursomes) apply. I explained if you were drawn 8th, that did not mean you could not play, it meant you got 9:10, and thus pushed someone asking for the 9:00-10:00 slot out.

It is attitudes like yours "Schley" and others who feel 4:15 is a fine POP are happy to delay everyone behind them because that is the posted POP, and those "members" who never would play early but somehow check the tee sheet, see the same names as the first tee time and would complain that makes me wonder. Not sure if anyone who plays behind us has gone to the GM and complained "That 8:00 am first group plays too fast, we didn't see them after the second hole and that really bothered us"

[Schley]

I don't know why my four letter word was deleted as it wasn't the F word. I don't talk to that level so want that to be known. It started with a D.

Under2hours I don't think you are a bad person for asking necessarily, but your expectations are very selfish IMO. The rules of a club are the rules, they have usually been revised over and over again to dial in to a working set that the membership is happy with. Posted POP is a standard that that clubs set to ensure that while some people are faster and some slower, there is a standard that you have to adhere to in order to ensure others can enjoy their round. The standard isn't, go as fast as the fastest members at the club want. I, nor do others, come to the club to be confrontational with other members or staff so that is why we have rules and regulations. Everyone knows them and follow them or get a letter.

I may like to walk the course slower than others, my dad has bad knees and can't get around too fast. It maybe a big money game with stress and want to know all the details from teh caddie etc. There are dozens of variables. However, the POP rule gives me an allowance and I have to adhere to that, not for my own enjoyment, but to ensure others enjoy their golf at an expected pace.

The principle of your argument is flawed from the beginning in that you want special treatment, cloaked in "doesn't it make sense?" No, there is a procedure for the club and follow it. I may not play in 3:00, but I want the first tee time of the day so I can get on with my day 20-30 minutes earlier for another committment. As long as I meet the POP rules why should you or anyone else care? The POP is a standard set by the club and if you want yours revised then go complain to your board.

This thread has gone on so long because almost everyone can't see your side, and you refuse to see theirs.

EDIT: BTW in your particular case the grounds crews don't ask for much, but most want to know that no one will tee off before the first tee time and that it is a full foursome to allow them the time they need to do their morning maintenance. That trust between the director of golf and the superintendent is and should be sacred.

[Greenie]

"it was also questioning why they moved to one hour blocks, but allowed more then those who could be accommodated (i.e. 6 foursomes) apply."

This was answered by many but you don't seem to get it. It is a LOTTERY SYSTEM. This prevents people like YOU running to book at the first possible moment every time and gives all the members an equal chance at an early tee time block.

 

"Not sure why anyone who plays behind us has gone to the GM and complained "That 8:00 am first group plays too fast, we didn't see them after the second hole and that really bothered us"

It's not the people behind you that would complain but have you thought that maybe some of the people ahead of you have complained about you wanting to play fast and you wanting to play through all the time.

Have you found the members with tee times ahead of you as accommodating as they were before to let you move up? With the "no waving through" they don't have to mess with letting you play through so I'm wondering. If it was me "I always let faster groups play through" I would let you move up instead of waving you through each time but now that there is no waving through well I would let you set back there instead of switching times with you.

 

"It is attitudes like yours "Schley" and others who feel 4:15 is a fine POP"

I've been playing golf for over 30 yrs. and POP for most courses has always been 4:15. My foursome plays in 3:30 mins when possible. I was brought up on the 4:15 POP so I have accepted not to get mad when I get done in 4:15 or less. What bugs me is in the last ten yrs. it seems 4:30-5hrs is acceptable. I've played less in the last three yrs. do to slow play. So I get it.

I think there has to be a standard POP time that is reasonable for foursomes to make and that seems to be 4:15. Do I agree with it when we get done in 3:30 ? NO...

If you don't like the stated 4:15 POP at your course and it's an easy 3:45 POP why don't you try to get POP changed at your course.

 

 

[raynorfan1]

The solution that our club has used (for a very long time) as recommended above is that there are different pace of play expectations for the earlier tee times. We only allow two balls off the tee for the first 90 minutes, and the guys who go in the first 30 minutes are expected to finish under 2:30. The next 30 minutes are expected to finish in under 2:45, and the next 30 minutes in under 3:00. Then the first hour of fourballs are expected to finish in 3:30, the second hour within 3:45 and anybody off after 10:00am is expected to finish sub 4:00.

Members understand these constraints, and guys who just can't get around in the allocated times just don't tee off in those times.

So in my opinion, "rabbits" should not be given priority for early times, but the club should make it clear that whoever tees off in those times should be prepared to play quickly. It's not about the person, it's about the time.

[BNGL]

I’d rather be behind them because then I’m pegging it on tour.

[BNGL]

It should be but it ain’t, but for the most part we make things work

[caniac6]

Really, the lottery is a temporary solution to a problem. I guess the OP should just suck it up, and go with the flow.

[MtlJeff]

This thread will probably last longer than the lottery!

My course is opening the restaurant next week and the times on weekends seem to have reverted back to mostly normal just with 10 minute intervals

[Greenie]

This has been my favorite thread since it started.

OP rants. Members leave their opinions. OP still doesn't get it. OP restarts the thread earlier today. It's the same thing.

IMO it would be more fair to the membership if the course continued on with the lottery forever. LOL

 

@MtJeff...Things do seem to be getting back to normal. My foursome has been enjoying the spaced out tee times. one rider to cart and being done walking in no longer than 3 1/2 hrs. Last round they had a sign posted at the course we went to stating they were back to regular spacing tee times and two to a cart. We finished in 4 hrs. First time this yr. we didn't play in under 3:30.. Almost back to normal..ho hum. It won't be long we will be back to 4:30.

 

 

 

[airjammer]

I’m really late to the party but as a rabbit as well if the grounds crew didn’t care they would get the first spot anytime they wanted it. At a previous public course we had a group that would play 18 Saturday and Sunday in 3 hours or less. Even if the first tee time was taken they let them go out no questions asked. Obviously this was a public course that needed all the business they could get but it’s a win win situation imo.

My first round back after covid I was playing that this course after 11am with a buddy and the first tee was packed. They had a daily massive senior group that hadn’t reached 12 yet and they wasn’t a group in front of them so I starting inquiring where we could start on 13. The assistant pro who I have known for about 20 years starts getting snarky and say “We are here to serve you George!”? “I don’t know what 1 tee will look like when you come back around”. I said that was fine it cannot be any worse than it currently is.

My buddy and I who were walking started on 13 and played 13-18 in 1 hour then made the turn with empty 1 tee box to play the front 9 in 2 hours. We quit after the 9th hole as the 10th had 2 groups waiting to tee off. So situations like this being creative and having a faster pace of play is advantageous to everyone. I can play more holes and the course can get more people off the first tee sooner.

To me it’s like a packed 2 lane interstate restarting after it got shutdown due to roadwork or a wreck. It doesn’t matter if the 18 wheelers were first in line once the traffic is allowed to flow again they need to move over to the far right lane so the faster cars can pass on the left and get the interstate flowing again sooner. Too many people are worried that someone is getting preferential treatment now days to do what it logical.

[Under2hours]

Again no one has answered one question. If 15 people request 8:00-9:00 and you do not get one of the 6 tee times & there are 8 requesting 9:00-10:00, why should someone who requested 8:00-9:00 and lost out in the first 6 get 9:30?

 

[deadsolid...shank]

I get where you’re coming from on this. Unfortunately it sounds like the lottery should work like a draft. The lottery gives the selection order, then groups choose their time.

[david.c.w]

It seems you are not understanding the definition of a lottery. If you don't win the first time you play, you don't get better odds the next time you play.

Look, lots of us are sympathetic with your overall premise. But right now times are different and everyone needs to adapt. It seems you are not willing to do that. There are more people playing now and they want early tre times too. Just because you used to get preferential treatment does not mean you are more important than a different or newer member.

Answer this question. If there are more members than tee times, and everyone wants to play that day, should you automatically get to play, let alone at the time you want?

[davep043]

This seems so simple to me. When you apply, you state a preference. When you get chosen, if your preferred time is not available, you get the closest time to your preference that IS available. You do NOT get frozen out if your preferred time is already taken. To me, that seems much more fair than excluding as many as 9 groups from having tee times, which is what you seem to prefer.

Now if you were to indicate that you'll accept the 8-9 time slot if you draw it, but you won't play any later, the pro shop staff will happily accommodate your wishes. Based on the numbers you suggest, you'll get to play roughly 40% of the days that you apply for.