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Opinion: Is Never Playing High-End Courses Frustrating?


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This is one of the things I actually makes golf great. At the end of the day the objective is getting the ball in the hole. Everyday there are people who pay hundreds of dollars to do this while at the same time there are people that handed a 10 dollar bill to a daughter or son in the pro shop at a course that their parents or grandparents built on the land they own. It’s absolutely beautiful and what makes our game the game we all love. I don’t want to say the “exclusivity of golf“ is made up, but at the same time it is something that only exists in the minds of those who let it bother them.

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The consensus in all the threads I have read here about the "is it worth it" question has been, no, it does not usually make financial sense to join a club to play golf. You almost always come out ah

Seems like this is the classic, "Champagne taste on a beer budget" conundrum. I think it is just the name of the game for any business. Every industry has products that appeal to both big spenders a

In short, it's all about what you perceive as value. For me I view it as I have one life to live, and I want to live it by trying to knock off as many big ticket bucket list items as I can. So I didn

This is true, I guess the lake where I have a place in the Poconos is like my country club but for fishing. I can fish whenever I want, in a great location where the amount of people there is always limited. Without that expense and weekend get away, joining a CC could be possible. Either way, im not complaining but rather wanted to start a discussion and I admit to seeing things differently now as this thread continues.

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Some of those top 100 courses can also have less than immaculate grass. When you pay $30 to play a cheap muni, you aren't generally shocked at the conditions. When you encounter poor conditions on a highly ranked course, it can be frustrating.

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I've played cheap munis, and high-end public courses. Ultimately I look for value, and/or the overall experience. The experience at Pebble Beach or TPC Sawgrass was excellent, but the value was meh at best. Still, I'm not going to be paying $400+ a round very often. It's a bucket list activity.

If one is flexible, or willing to accept less than perfect conditions, one can play some top end courses at a significant discount in the off season. I played Whistling Straits and Kiawah Island Ocean for less than a third of the peak season rate. Are you more interested in experiencing the course's design, or the pristine conditions?

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Exclusivity is the difference between golf in the US (and many other countries) versus golf in say Scotland. In Scotland there are very few courses that you can't play. Sure there are some exclusive ones that maybe you can only play on a Tuesday or Wednesday, or like the old course where you have to plan a long time out if you aren't a local. I would be willing to bet there aren't more than a handful of courses in ALL of Scotland that you cannot get onto without having a connection.

In the US, shoot even in Atlanta there are more than a handful of courses that you cannot get on. Sure some have connections and if they call around and talk to friends and friends of friends they can get on at Peachtree, Atlanta Athletic, PDC, Cherokee, Capital City, Ansley, Atlanta CC, with a ton of planning, but that's not the point. The majority of golfers in and around Atlanta have no chance of getting on most of these clubs. In the US it is seen by many as a status symbol to be a member at these clubs and many just like it across the US, and in Scotland you never get that vibe. I hear in Ireland you do not get that vibe either, but my Ireland trip is at best coming in 2022 now that other trips were delayed because of Covid. However they are private clubs and can do whatever they want.

Is it good or bad for golf? In what context? Is it bad for growing the game? Yes and no. I think that is why the USGA and even the PGA has started to make more of an effort to play more courses that are open to the general public or are resort courses. Playing the US Open at a course only the super connected or super rich can play, when you are the representation for EVERY GOLFER IN AMERICA is absolutely bad for the game. Playing at some resort courses has a flaw as well, Pebble Beach is what 500 or more a round, plus I think they require you to stay at the resort(which isn't cheap). Pinehurst isn't giving away rounds at #2 and Erin Hills isn't exactly cheap either. Bethpage isn't cheap unless you are a local. Whistling Straits, Kiawah? Not cheap either. However at least they can be played, which is a step in the right direction.

I know the PGA and USGA need certain amounts of infrastructure and room for that infrastructure to hold an event, but not ever being able to play Shinnecock, Olympic, Oakmont, Winged Foot, Baltusrol, Medinah, Oak Hill, is bad for the game in my personal opinion. The PGA isn't representing ALL GOLFERS IN THE US, neither is Augusta. They all can do whatever they want, but the fact that the USGA holds events at courses that are super private is a travesty in my opinion. I know, conditioning is better at private clubs, blah, blah, blah. That's why the USGA isn't going back to Bethpage, they wouldn't put them on the list so the state said they couldn't keep the conditioning up unless the USGA gave them a year and soon. They didn't, so the PGA did and voila, no more US Opens at Bethpage.

Then there is Augusta National. Played at the same course every year, probably the hardest club to get on for the average golfer, just ahead of Seminole, Cypress, and Pine Valley. Is that exclusivity good for the game? Well....maybe. It is not the US "Open" and the PGA is really the forgotten major. The masters is it's own thing, will they ever open up for some lucky folks? I would have thought never, but their recent change in mind for the women's amateur and having Drive, Chip, and Putt there makes me think that they are starting to realize that making it so more people can at least step on the grounds is a good thing.

I could see a Charlie and the Chocolate Factory type of hype for a golden ticket to play Augusta National. There are some really rich people out there that would pay an awful lot of money to play there, remember even some of the really rich have never played golf there. That course more than any can get away with being super exclusive and have it nor hurt the game, the Masters after all is an invitational, it is not the Open, the US Open, or even the PGA.

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In short, it's all about what you perceive as value.

For me I view it as I have one life to live, and I want to live it by trying to knock off as many big ticket bucket list items as I can. So I didn't even think twice about dropping the coin for Pebble, Sawgrass, or Kiawah. Yes, it's a lot of money for ONE round of golf. But you don't play those types of courses week-in and week-out. You play them maybe once or twice in your lifetime.

I have a friend who balked when he asked and I told him what I paid for a round at Pebble. He said "but I can play Local CC down the road at least 10 times for that!". Sure, if you don't see the value in the EXPERIENCE of playing a course like Pebble, that's fine. He doesn't want to see the value, and that's ok. I say go enjoy your 10 rounds at the local course.

A different story I'll share real quick. Back in 2016 a different buddy and I went down to Florida to play a few courses down there. One of the courses I insisted we put on the schedule was TPC Sawgrass. I called 2 weeks ahead, and was able to get a tee time. While I was on the phone, I forgot to ask her how much the round would cost. So of course that's one of the first things my buddy asks me when I tell him our tee time. I said "I forgot to ask, do you want me to call back?". He says, "no, I think I found it online. It's $250"

So the night before Sawgrass day comes around. We're sitting around watching March Madness, and he's online surfing on his iPad. He says "ummm, dude....". I say "what's the matter?". He holds up his iPad and I see "$495" on the screen. I say "what's that?". He replies in a freaked out tone "that's what it's going to cost us tomorrow!!".

Apparently whatever site he saw two weeks earlier wasn't the right site/price. So now he's freaking out. "500 bills is a lot to drop for one round!! I dunno. Let's cancel and play somewhere else!"

I said to him point blank "I completely understand if you want to cancel, but I want to go. I may not get back down here any time soon. So if you bail, could I get you to give me a ride tomorrow to a car rental place so I can make the trip myself?"

He agreed to sleep on it. The next morning he was on board, and off we went. To this day, we both agreed it was one of the best and most fun experiences of our lives. He didn't regret spending one penny.

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Nailed it. Never before have price and quality of golf course design been less correlated. I'm not sure where the OP or others responding to this topic live, but in my own travels I've been blown away by far more sub-$50 golf courses than courses. When you pay top-dollar to play a golf course, you're often paying primarily for a higher standard of maintenance and maybe a little bit the niceness of the clubhouse, level of service, etc. And I'm not saying that extra stuff isn't nice, or it isn't worthwhile once in a while. But if I compare a few $250 golf courses/"experiences" I've enjoyed with the best $50 versions, the $50 versions blow the bigger-bucks stuff out of the water on a relative-value basis. Yes, putting on glassy-smooth greens that stimp at 12 is fun, but that's something that has nothing to do with the most important aspect of a golf course, IMO, which is the design. The more golfers realize this, the more it will disrupt the market and reorient us to the most worthwhile golf experiences, which I think will end up averaging out in the consumer's favor.

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A couple of observations here:

Golf is the only sport that you can play on the same field that the pros play and to do so is relatively inexpensive. For example, a $425 round at TPC Sawgrass and lose as many balls as you want on No.17 or a $2,000 Celtics’ floor ticket at Boston Garden where your feet may touch the wood. Residents of NY and San Diego are extremely lucky in this respect as their muni’s are where the pros play.While I would never recommend joining a country club to save money, I average 3-4 rounds a week which brings my per round cost (in season) to <$60. Furthermore, if I wasn’t a member of a club there is no way with my work and life schedule that I could play that much due to pace of play.Members of high end and exclusive golf clubs love to show off the club and invite guests to play. It’s all about who you know and I know many blue collar/tradesmen who have played Augusta and Pine Valley.

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I've played approximately 30 courses that have hosted professional events. The most expensive have pushed $500, but a surprising number have been less than $150. A handful were less than $100, e.g. TPC Deere Run, Brown Deer.

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Sadly those days are long gone in Scotland. Yes there’s always been the dozen or so big name courses that were never cheap.. but try playing a second tier course in those areas now. You won’t find much under £100, and even in July the weather is 50/50.

i had thought that due to covid and the lack of any facilities through the summer, they might be prepared to do a bit of a deal, and I emailed a few. No responses, and yet these same clubs are complaining in the local press about substantial loss of revenue??

im not flat out against expensive courses, I’m against they typical committee of buffoons who run them and can’t see what’s obvious. The market for golfers prepared to pay £100 plus in the U.K. (with no tourists) is.. small.

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Is it frustrating? Maybe, but there also comes a fair amount of anxiety not to “waste” a round somewhere exclusive or high end.

is it bad for golf? I don’t think it is. As many have stated, if there is something to enjoy, someone will find a way to enjoy it “more”.

i love watches. would I love to have a ultra rare mint condition vintage watch from a historically relevant manufacturers? Yea, I would. But my regular watch is every bit as accurate and durable. There are needs, and there are wants. But in the end you have to be realistic and honest about it all.

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I agree with your last point so much. I do think the playing of our national championship (and 3/4 majors overall) at courses people will never get to enjoy is a travesty. R&A does this well where in order to host the open you have to allow outside play a certain number of days a week. Is getting a 4-ball at Carnoustie easy or cheap? No, but even knowing that one day you can play it is a big deal. Golf in USA is more off putting and exclusionary which gives it a terrible reputation amongst non golfers which does in fact hurt the game. There’s so much pressure put on courses to close all over the country and turn it into parks, housing, instead anything other than golf course because people love “sticking it to the man” and to the masses golf is the game of “the man”

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That's a good point. I spent this past winter in Phoenix. The winter is their peak season, and green fees are very high. The high end courses are extremely expensive, and even the munis aren't cheap if you don't buy a player's card. I played Monday through Friday, and I was averaging over $1300 a month playing low-end and mid-level courses. Talking with a few of the locals, I could easily find a nice private for less. Even if it wound up costing a bit more, playing in better conditions, and not having to deal with a packed tee sheet would be worth the extra cash.

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Every single "second tier" course, so called, we played in Ayrshire was under 100 pounds, well under. Heck, I played a comp at a darn nice course for less than 30 pounds. Not sure what your definition of "second tier" courses are in East Lothian, but we only paid more than 100 pounds at North Berwick. Crail in Fife, under 100 pounds. Royal Dornoch in the evening under 100 pounds (just one of the best in the world), other courses like Tain well under 100 pounds, well under, and plenty of rates to be found at different times if you look. Brora a bargain and hardly "second tier" and nowhere near 100 pounds. I know you are sensitive to the subject and I'm just a tourist and don't have your context, but you really give the wrong impression about rates to be had in Scotland.

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^Tain is 75, Brora 95, north Berwick 160, I think Crail was 100 last year. That’s advertised rates in the week, not twilights (what else is there to do all day in Brora while waiting for a 3pm tee off)??

Im just making three points. Silloth and goswick the other side of the wall are top 100 and £50. Secondly, there’s no adjustment for lack of clubhouses changing rooms etc. Thirdly Brora in particular is moaning in the press about lack of revenue this year.

if any and all of those courses are actually busy with visitors this summer I’ll take it all back!

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I don't think most would agree that North Berwick is "second tier" as you put it. You can play Glen Golf Club for 60 (45 later in the day), Dunbar for 90 (70 later in the day), Kilspindie 65 - I assume these meet your definition of "second tier" in East Lothian, but Dunbar and Kilspindie would disagree I bet. The other Gullane courses 65/45. Around Fife, yep, I was a little off on Crail - it's now 98 (but not "second tier"), Lundin and Leven 85, The New Course for heaven's sake you can play for 85, not "second tier". North = Tain is 70, Brora 55 later in the day and plenty to do in the area, lol. Heck you can play Moray Old earlier in the day or later in the day for 85, not a "second tier" course at all and Brora isn't close to "second tier". Around Troon, Prestwick St. Nicholas is 75, West Kilbride is 60.

Now, what is it worth for anyone to play any course? I can only speak for myself. I'm sure there are tons of options throughout England that are fantastic and don't cost as much as the above, but there are tons of other courses in Scotland as well. But the idea that you can't play much for second tier courses for under 100 pounds just isn't accurate and there are top tier courses in Scotland you can play for under 100 pounds.

Yep, some twilight rates also noted and checking with courses on rates that you may not see advertised online is important. Even though we played with a member for next to nothing for our second round, we were going to pay around 90 pounds for a twilight round at Royal Dornoch - huge bargain IMO for one of the best courses in the world, many would say.

Play where you like, pay what you like, doesn't matter to me. And all of the above are peak season. If I lived in the UK I'm guessing I'd be more able to take advantage of nice shoulder season rates.

But come on, there are plenty of places to play in Scotland that are cheaper than what you are claiming and I don't want others to read that and get the wrong impression.

BTW, I'd love to come "south" some day and play all sorts of courses and there are plenty of clubs in England not giving rounds of golf away and plenty of other clubs with really nice courses, at least from what I read about them, that aren't so expensive. Sounds like a wonderful place to play golf and plan to do that one day and hope I can.

 

 

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I think it depends on what part of the country/world you live in too. We are pretty lucky where I live that most of our municipal courses are kept in excellent shape (as good as many private clubs), have pretty good layouts for the most part and I can play them for under $30 if I walk (most of the time) or $45 if I choose to ride. Every once in a while, I will splurge for a higher tier public course that costs more in the $60-80 range, but I have no urge to spend more than that unless it is a special course. And you can still find some great deals even on amazing courses. I've played Bethpage Black, Torrey Pines South, TPC Scottsdale Stadium Course and other tour-level courses all for under $100.

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Op, simply come to Finland.

I get to play my course with an unlimited season pass for $850/year. It's quality is about the same as a mid-tier US public. If I add $75 per year, I get unlimited play at two other local courses via a reciprocity agreement. And there is, I believe, only one course in the country that has exclusivity similar to Us clubs, and even then you can get on if you try hard enough.

 

To the thread topic: let's say you lived in an area... Oh lets call it the Seattle metro. You have 3 courses at your disposal in city limits: Jackson, Jefferson, and West Seattle, all of which will set you back $30-50. Getting out a bit farther you've got Newcastle, Harbour Point, Druids Glenn, and a few others in the "more upscale daily fee courses" category. Is it frustrating to have to drive 30-45 minutes to pay $75+ to golf on a course with actually decent conditions? You bet it is. Is it frustrating to know you'll never get to play Broadmoor, Sand Point, Seattle Cc, etc. You bet it is too.

Is it bad for the game itself? I hesitate to say so. So long as the charming dump type courses continue to put out an acceptable product for the vast majority of us I think it's fine. We just have to settle with hunting for value and the occasional splurge instead of pebble every day.

I think the frustration comes from that we deep down know we are not in a position to afford such luxury, the course on the other side of the gatehouse looks to be in such better shape, and our situation will not change to accommodate that anytime soon. Being resigned to 'it is what it is' is always frustrating.

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Interesting thread. We've been fortunate to play courses domestically and internationally that fall into pretty much every category. While there are some "exclusive" courses like Pine Valley or ANGC that would be great to play, for me the course is just one of many variables in a round and a great course with a lousy experience is worse than an average course with a great experience. The first time we played Whistling Straits was on a beautiful day with great people but we were treated terribly by the caddies and staff. Think we paid about $400 for that round all in. Didn't walk away enjoying the round or the experience.

Conversely, we played Medinah #2 shortly after the redesign. It's the lesser sibling of #3 and a good but not great course but we had phenomenal caddie, a great group of guys and that was a far better experience on an "exclusive" course.

Golf courses are like wine for me. Sometimes it's better to have a lesser known, hidden gem at a fair price that delights you as opposed to a marquee vineyard with high priced/high expectation wine that is just OK. If the hype exceeds the experience, you've missed something.

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Its all about what you value. For some its the architecture of the course, for others its being able to show up last minute without a tee time and play in 3 1/2 hours without any waiting. Still for others its being able to conduct business while getting some fresh air and golf is an after thought. I'm very fortunate to call a top 100 private course home but am not a "member" and am limited to certain times of the year and don't have access to the clubhouse/member locker room. This suits my values perfectly as I'm all about the people and the course and could care less about dining or a pool or tennis or the feel of exclusivity. I think a lot of people don't realize how accessible these very private courses are. Do some networking and I'll bet you know through friends more members than you think. Should they invite you to play most private courses have an accompanied guest fee of $80-$120 which is an absolute steal for where I play and many other courses in the same caliber. I'm not sure where you live but doing a little homework and networking will likely open doors you wouldn't think possible.

Do I think exclusive, private courses are bad for the game? No, I don't. They are an aspect of this great game and if you are a really great person who truly loves golf and works hard to network outside of maybe 5-10 fortresses I think you'll find the rest are more accessible as a guest than you think.

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Only mentioned North Berwick in response, at that price I’ll never find out what tier it is..played Glen last year, nice views, definitely second tier. Kilspindie wasn’t available, have played gullane 2 before £50 ish is a good deal.

Sure I wrote this before but played Leven the year before out of curiosity, at £70 it was shocking. St Andrews multi day ticket was a good deal last year if you rate the Castle Course highly (top 100 uk in my book). But there a lot of courses comparable to the New and Jubilee all around the U.K., no way are they £85 courses alone by comparison.

i could rattle on but Dunbar is the most pertinent example. 24 of us played it the year before for£80 and were non plussed. Lovely setting, old fashioned out dated design. Half an hour away in England, Goswick, Open final qualifier, £50 for the day and one of the best courses any of us had played on tour.

there are (a few) deals to be had in Scotland but they’re getting harder to find. We’ve been looking, and emailing, no price adjustments for lack of facilities and difficulty travelling. Golf tourism board hasn’t been updated in three years! They could justify the price previously with the amount of tourists, but reality is going to bite hard now. Can’t keep putting up prices 10% every year and think it doesn’t go wrong somewhere

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What I'm getting out of this is if we plan a trip to London in a couple of years and part of the trip involves golf down in England, we will be very pleased!

Again, I'm not from there and can't put myself in your shoes, but I am learning a lot more on here the past several months about opportunities in England that seem amazing.

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      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #2
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #3
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #4
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #5
       
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #6
       
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #7
       
      Cameron putters - Farmers 2021
       
      Odyssey 2-ball Ten - Farmers 2021
       
      Project X Even Flow RipTide MX & LX proto shafts - Framers 2021
       
      TaylorMade putter cover for Torrey Pines - Farmers 2021
       
      Sling Shot training aid - Farmers 2021
       
       
      • 47 replies
    • 2021 American Express WITB & Equipment Photos- Links and comments
      We are back on the ground at the American Express PGA event.
       
      Here are links to all the galleries:
       
      Cameron putters - 2021 American Express
      PXG Gen 4 prototype drivers - new putters
      UST Maymiya LinQ shafts - American Express 2021
      Mitsubishi Kaili & MMT shafts - American Express 2021
      Titleist TSi 2 & TSi 3 hybrids - American Express 2021
      TaylorMade putter cover for Palm Springs/Palm Desert - American Express
      New Aldila Synergy, Ascent & prototype shafts - American Express 2021
      Callaway Apex Pro iron, Epic Driver and fairway, Apex iron & hybrid - American Express 2021
      New Perfect Practice training aids - American Express 2021
      New KBS prototype shafts - American Express 2021
       
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      • 18 replies

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