**Poll! Should the golf ball be “rolled-back” 10% or more. Only for the PGA tour

[Hawkeye77]

Voted, but . . . . can't think of anything to complain about! I'll take your marker. ;-)

[15th Club]

This is the comprehensive basket of deplorables in the rollback debate.

Accuse opponents of being old and out of touch. Check.

Accuse rollback opponents of being jealous of distance. Check.

Suggest that they way to address $4 multilayer urethane golf balls is to make major changes to golf courses. And not good changes. Rather; terrible, punitive anti-strategic changes that run counter to the most elementary golf course architecture. Check, check, check.

Let’s be really clear about one thing. The reason that so few current/young Tour players say nothing good about a possible rollback is because they are contracted to manufacturers who oppose any rollback for their own corporate interests. That’s it. You won’t see Justin Thomas or Jordan Spieth or Charley Hoffman speak out in favor of a ball rollback any more than you would hear them say how cool it might be to carry a bag of Mizuno irons and TaylorMade woods.

[bscinstnct]

 

Im actually for a roll back. But, as I have mentioned, I think it should be implemented at the junior golf level. And then not implemented in the PGA Tour for about 9 years. That would coincide with Junior golfers turning pro after playing the “new balll” their whole lives and with the Tours 9-year TV contract expiring and, giving pros plenty of time to get used to the ball.

 

I think a 10% roll back in 10 years would also coincide with the average driving distance increasing another 5 + yards to 300 yards average as players keep getting bigger and faster.

 

So, it would take the average distance back to 270 and big hitters back down to 300. Still plenty long but hopefully less bomb and wedge.

 

It is getting out of hand when 13 at Augusta plays nothing like it was intended to and they have to keep moving the tee back.

[storm319]

So you are recommending rolling elite distance back to less than Jack averaged in his prime? Most courses are unable to host a PGA Tour event not due to the actual course but due to lack of infrastructure which no level of rollback will change.

Ultimately the only challenge lengthening a course provides is to challenge the elite players strive towards hitting the ball further. The key to curbing future distance is to lessen the incentive for hitting the ball further through course setups. Whether people like it or not the approach to the game has changed due to advances in technological measurement/metrics and no amount of rolling back equipment will bring it back to whatever past era you are wistful about.

[puttingmatt]

Just have to say NO ,

 

[storm319]

I have seen very few suggestions of major course changes. Grass if well cared for grows naturally. The primary suggestion is to simply cut the grass longer than what has been the norm for courses on tv over the past 30 years. The real reason you don’t want to entertain this is because the USGA has no control over the vast majority of course setups.

Anti-strategic? As opposed to prescribing to the idea that length is the only way to challenge so that the course can be wide open so that the player can play “choose your own adventure” on their way to the green?

As for players not speaking out due to contractual obligations...What about the other Bridgestone staffers besides Tiger? (even that would seem disingenuous given that Bridgestone has more to gain from a market reset vs the status quo) What about the increasing number of players remaining free agents that have no OEM endorsements? Players like Jack and Monte did exactly what you are criticizing while in their primes and according to the USGAs expanded distance study would have been contributors to the perceived problem yet did not speak out until their competitive careers had come to an end (hard to not be viewed as salty at that point).

[farmer]

When you start to lecture, you lose all credibility. Disagree, sure, but you and 15 have a habit of lecturing. I'm older than you, played more golf, don't need a lecture.

[storm319]

So a scenario where as few as 3 independent championships adopting a rollback (vs 45+ PGA Tour events not) is worth unraveling the USGAs greatest accomplishment which has been uniting the golf world under a uniform set of rules?

Also, ANGC doesn’t have to do anything to 13. If money was really a concern they would leave it as is or change it to a par 4 and move up the tees slightly for a single week per year but this is the same club that has spent over $200 mil on surrounding land over the past 20 years the vast majority of which was not used to expand the actual course.

[Golfjack]

Hey man, how come you haven't voted yet? I can see you are for a roll back. Nothing wrong with adding to the total. Anyway, I like the idea at implementing it back. I don't know if it will impact junior golfers though, and harder to implement for regular golfers (how do you bifurcate between these elite junior guys and regular juniors)? I think bifurcating at the pro level is a much better solution, and cleaner as well. You make it the same for everyone, and golfers will adjust. Then again, for a guy who drives it 300, then goes to 270 on the shorter ball, which tee do they tee off from? You can say this adds basically 10 pct to every course. a 450 yard par 4 is all of a sudden a long par 4.

[pacifictour]

I voted no

 

but If a roll back

I want it across the board not just top levels

 

not a bifurcation fan

[15th Club]

Jack Nicklaus — never a Titleist staffer — has been raising the distance issue for about 40 years.

Tiger Woods has been calmly on the side of better ball regulation for more than a decade. Post-Titleist.

 

[oikos1]

Completely agree with your idea that players tend to be hush-hush because they are contractually obligated. They are also playing for millions, so I would imagine most would learn to play with whatever ball required. The issue seems to lie with bifurcation. Have you moved on that issue? Are you willing to concede a reduced distance tour ball for the professional game, and perhaps high level am and collegiate events, and the existing USGA ball regulations for ams and recreational golfers to continue with both considered legal within the rules of golf?

[tiderider]

no ... there are several other things they could do before changing the ball ... i've seen dj state to his caddie on 4 different occasions about a mis-hit with his driver ... "little on the heel", or something similar ... drives are the main issue, imo ... not the only issue, but the main issue ... reduce the size of that club head first ... way down to below 350 cc or so ... they will not swing as hard, guarantee it ... then let's see where we stand ...

[15th Club]

My first comment on this thread voiced my dissatisfaction with the poll’s framing that seemed to posit only a bifurcated solution.

I oppose bifurcation. But even more than my opposition to bifurcation, I support an elite-level rollback.

 

[storm319]

This Titleist conspiracy theory is getting old. Jack was not outspoken about the golf ball until the 90’s (specifically the Titleist Professional, hmmm he sure does have a problem with Titleist doesn’t he?) and while he was never endorsed by Titleist he was under contract with other OEMs. Interestingly enough he seemed quiet on the subject a few years back when he was selling balls under his own brand...

As for Tiger, his last decade has been plagued with injuries and stiff competition. Isn’t it interesting how he didn’t mention anything against the ball during arguably the largest paradigm shift in our lifetime as it pertains to the ball?

See a trend here? No one in their prime complaining when things are going well.

[15th Club]

You’re seeing a trend that I am telling you is false. I am telling you and others to forget the ad hominem garbage about rollback advocates being motivated by something other than the integrity of golf course architecture.

The rollback argument is about course architecture and playing strategy. It’s not about older golfers’ jealousies or other such nonsense.

[Darth Putter]

This trend dates back to Allan Robertson firing Old Tom Morris for playing a gutta percha ball in 1851.

[freowho]

I voted no because it should be rolled back for everyone not just PGA tour.

[storm319]

If it was truly about course integrity than Jack would have been more outspoken about courses being lengthened while he was playing (keep in mind that he was the cause of some of it and later continued the trend with his own design company).

Also, comparison to the past absolutely has a huge part to play in rollback motivations otherwise people would be able to simply except that times change and focus on the ultimate goal of the game which is that the lowest score for a particular event wins.

[15th Club]

In 1984, while still winning major championships, Jack Nicklaus designed a special pair of short resort courses in the Cayman Islands where real estate and fresh water were scarce. The courses required a special 50-60% rolled-back ball; McGregor’s “The Cayman Ball.” Jack was deep into to distance problem from the standpoints of design, development, recreational golf and championship golf way back then.

[grm24]

So what happens first? You disappear for a week or our old pal Finbarr actually pays off wearing a dress after TW won in 2018? Wow look how much better the old WRX forum looked compared to the vanilla "upgrade" we have now.

[storm319]

This wasn’t some passion project, his company was contracted to design the course and the hotel did not have adequate land. Outside of that use case (because their aren’t a lot of alternatives in the caymans) this concept has been wildly unpopular to the point that the 1990s saw the exact opposite happen, a boom that resulted in a glutton of unnecessarily long courses in environments that will never host an elite event. This has never been a viable solution for land constraints for US courses.

Next, that period was the end of his career (only 1 major win after 1980), but more importantly he was not advocating for the USGA to rollback ball regulations until after his PGA Tour career had come to an end. Now his stake in MacGregor being a conflict of interest could have been a factor, but he also wasn’t vocal when he sold it off and started endorsing Maxfli near the end (whom he probably should have criticized just as much as Titleist if the principal had been a higher priority).

 

 

 

 

[pacifictour]

I played the cayman ball a number of times

 

it was absurd

more fun playing wiffle balls

[Boricua Golf]

I voted no because now that BD is piping it 350 the equipment is to blame, I just think that these Pros can get in better shape, faster and stronger, just like he did, it was never a problem when DJ, Rors, etc send the ball flying over 320yds...they just need to adapt and overcome, most the complaints are from the guys on TV, I am not sure if the Pros themselves are complaining...either way, I don't think rolling the ball back is the answer, then the shorter hitters will be punished even more, the courses are not going to get shorter, just my .02, please don't kill me, just an opinion..

[Nels55]

No

[15th Club]

So we’re going to take this discussion completely off-track into the stupid realm of whether or not the rollback debate is simply a generational dispute?!?

Fine; let’s spend all day on it, because I am not giving an inch on this terrible misconception.

Nicklaus has said when he began speaking to the USGA about golf ball specs; it was the late 70’s.

Nicklaus has said why he favors a rollback; it is to preserve course architecture.

We all know what has happened with distance in the ProV era; it has increased dramatically.

We all know what the Ruling Bodies’ Joint Statement said; that any increase in hitting distances would lead them to act. And we know what happened in the 18 or so years since then. Distances have increased.

Jack is 100% right to be more emphatic than ever.

[storm319]

The delusion of grandeur that you seem to have whereas you are the ultimate authority on this subject is perplexing.

Also, never said that this is only a generational dispute, but it definitely has a role. If this was solely about land conservation, action would have been taken years ago.

[oikos1]

Would you accept bifurcation to protect historic architectural design and course strategy at the elite or professional level? Because let's be honest, golf is already bifurcated and the rules die hards know this. This just seems to be the hill that group is going to take it's last stand on.

[clevited]

Lets be really clear about another thing, these constantly brought up points are brought up constantly for a reason. A lot of them are true.

Many are indeed older and remember the "good ol days" and want it back.

Many are also get off my lawn types and hate the fact that kids are growing up bombing them way past them and use things like, they have no skill as arguments for a ball rollback.

Many are also out of touch with the majority that play the sport because they feel the need to preserve par or the way old golf courses are played by a very small group of golfers, which are also almost inaccessible by most golfers.

You don't seem to remember the anonymous players poll I posted in one of these threads a while back. It very much reflects this poll, I believe it was 70/30 against a rollback. No sponsor bias there.

[clevited]

Nobody seems to notice that on the tour it is rare that the longest pro averages over 315 total on their drives. This has been the same for 20 years. There are just more and more guys able to do this today that also have elite skill in the rest of their game. The driving average will continue to climb but it won't really ever get past that 315 average. Its because of the old course mix is a natural govenor thing. That govenor can be tweaked just by letting the grass grow. Courses will save on mower fuel and wear and tear as a bonus.

Longer courses are also completely unnecessary. Like has been said, lengthening started long ago, and I have read several articles stating that much of it was done in order to sell more golf course home properties. Augusta however, did it because of pride, nothing more.

 

Edit: Clairfied my wording better.