Chasing 130. (Updated from 120)

[Myherobobhope]

Since this forum doesn't get much traction, I'm going to put this here as my own personal journal on chasing club head speed... I'm hoping to discuss a variety of things as I chase boosting my club head speed to 120 mph (and beyond, if possible).

I currently sit a 6'4" the wrong side of 300lbs and 112 mph and I'm 38... I'm a big boy. I wrestled and golfed in high school and have always moved well for my size... distance off the tee has always been a strength, but never something I truly sought to maximize... I've decided in my quest to get fit to have an external goal outside of weight to chase down.Program: Fitness wise, I'm using the Fit for Golf app... I'm trying to get into the gym at least 5 times a week while still playing golf... being out of shape has made this more problematic, as gym time negatively impacts my play on the course, but I will play through the soreness and carry on. My feeling is, if I can swing a club decently on a deadlift day, I can swing a club well when I'm not deadlifting.Injury: This is a big concern, and I've already hurt myself... I didn't spend enough time on flexibility and have strained an oblique... I've been off my program and golf for a week (I'm bored, one of the reasons for this thread)... but everything is starting to feel better, so I'm hoping to start getting in some light forward progress moving forward (with a focus on flexibility to make sure I don't hurt myself again). My fitness program relies on short, heavy lifts... so I think once I get into better shape I will be better off overall... My weight is more likely to cause injury long term than my fitness... so I need to find something that works, regardless.Golf Side: I'm determined to not let my quest for distance interrupt my quest to be a better overall golfer... I won't just be spending time on the range swinging as hard as I can... There will be some of that, but I want to continue to develop my all around game. I don't want to add distance without also adding control, so that's going to be interesting to see if I can do it...

 

So that's the plan... last time I was on a Trackman (with PING) I was at 112mph. That was 3 weeks ago... with my hip hurt, I haven't really gone full out since then... I'm hoping to get on a monitor this next weekend and see what my "top" numbers are... then just continue my program and re-assess in a few weeks. Plan is to 1. Focus on flexibility right now, as I'm not comfortable lifting 2. Get back to lifting when I can 3. Get in as much golf as I can while I can...

Feel free to chime in, it's a dumb quest, but one I'm trying to commit to... Somewhat the anti-Bryson plan... eat less, drive more.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Myherobobhope

[Myherobobhope]

 

This is the hole I want to break... it’s 302 carry to a mediocre lie and the big tree on the corner is not shown... 120 with +5 aoa will get me to the top of the hill, I hope...

[chipa]

I would go with weight training and do power cleans and front squats for leg and lower back stability. Forget standard deadlifts as they don't build fast twitch muscles. The deadlifts integrated in the power cleans are much more dynamic and can be done with much less weight.

As far as flexibility goes that's good in a general sense, but winding up one shoulders doesn't always generate clubhead speed, as I have found out. My best clubhead speed was 128 when I was in my 30's and I'm a small guy, I remember that everything feels connected in my swing and at the top of my backswing my right foot feels absolutely embedded in the ground - basically I felt like I was swinging against my right leg that at the top of my swing was ready to go at the target w/o waiting so I swung from the top. You being a big guy should have an advantage if you can get the stance and weighshift right.

[Myherobobhope]

I struggle with cleans due to the length of my forearms...I tend to hit myself in the throat.

we will see how it goes.

[chipa]

It took me 3 months to get the bar close to my shoulders because my arms are short. Longer arms require a wider grips as far as I've seen. This will also increase your shoulder flexibility. Also, even when I could finally get the bar on my chest it choked me half the time because of the forward slant of my neck. With time it's no problem because you will learn to pull the neck back. This will also greatly increase your neck and back posture.. I have bad knees and can't get down to far under the bar but have still manged to get 185 at 158 lbs.

BTW, I've only had a few lessons and the one I had form a "pro" screwed me up and got my swing all disconnected. I naturally stand a little closed with my feet and open with my shoulders and they changed that. Another pro who was an acquaintance at the local golf shop said he wouldn't give me lessons because I'm an engineer and think too much. All I really wanted to do was understand my swing instead of swinging and hoping for the best. By the time he was ready to help me out after I had begged him so long the other guys had got me so screwed up with an open stance that I couldn't make a swing any other way so the pro said fix that and come back to me. I did eventually fix that after a few years. I'm still trying to figure out my swing and an following MLDT's method, although I am still trying to understand the technical aspects just to give me confidence on the course. One thing I have learned is to keep my hands relaxed and connected during the swing and to also stand closer to the ball as that helps with the turn plus keeps the hands connected. I have a tendency of reaching at address and it causes a loop. I have no idea how Moe Norman could ever swing that way. Bobby Jones is my current swing model albeit I start with a little more weight on my right side. I never worry about keeping my left arm straight, John Daly cured me of that - he I someone I study a lot too. Good luck.

[Myherobobhope]

Thanks! It's going to be an interesting journey for sure... I'm actually fairly happy with my swing overall when my path is good... I had gotten way outside to eliminate a left miss... it wasn't smart. I'm not chasing speed at the expense of everything else, I'm just seeing if I can improve my swing doing non-golf tasks (weightlifting) and then add some speed training in on the range... If I can build a good path at 120mph, it should help me even if I can't maintain that type of club head speed. We will see.

[zwhitworth]

Try with dumbbells. I'm not an expert, but I think the benefits would still apply. This also allows your forearms to rotate and puts less stress on the elbows.

[zwhitworth]

And don't forget the small muscles in the shoulder. Lighter weight with focus since heavier weight will almost always engage the delt.

[chipa]

I'm glad you started this post because it made me really think about my best swings, which for me don't happen often and never on demand. Thinking about it the things that seemed "different" from my other swings wasn't the shoulder turn by far but instead the left hand and shoulder initial movement and the fact that my legs felt absolutely embedded in the ground.

While I have recently gotten back into golf I have been trying to get the correct grip and takeaway sequence to find the same feeling I had with the hand and shoulder but I haven't been giving my stance a lot of thought, which I realize is part of the reason why I am still inconsistent. Thanks to your thread my stance is now an integral part of my setup, its not the alignment I am working on but the feel of strength and immovability like my legs are ready to handle 250 from a power clean and that my hips feel very connected to the legs, so they act as one, but not only that they stay that way during the backswing so much so that when I push my left shoulder back that instead of turning and feeling disconnected from the legs they resist and as a consequence "slide" a little to the right, like Byron Nelson's move, which really loads up my right side but not in a circular motion but rather linear. In other words I recognize my biggest swings always had a significant linear motion as opposed to rotary and everything "bounces" linearly off my right leg if you will.

[Myherobobhope]

This is a great idea.

[Drivingrangehero]

Although I have lost ball speed over the years, I’m longer now with lower back arthritis at 44 years old than I have been since 2009 or so. All due to AOA and optimizing my launch and spin numbers, all while swinging within myself. Pre 2009 I could crack 180 ball speed now and then, but hovered around 176-178 with 26-2800rpm spin rate. now I’m somewhere around 162-166 with 1000 less rpms of spin and about the same length off the tee now, as I was 15 years ago.

I had a couple of kids and hadn’t played since getting injured, but started back up almost 2 years ago........ it’s been a journey!

At 112 swing speed, I assume you are 165ish ball speed........ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I think I’m somewhere around 111-112mph myself.

if you are in good health and haven’t any physical limitations holding you back, I don’t see why you couldn’t increase your swing speed 8mph or more.

A warning on losing weight. I lost 50 pounds and about 4mph ball speed doing so since last year.......fat is your friend, look at DeChambeau, not all of that is muscle ?

 

[Myherobobhope]

Yeah, I’m aware losing weight will cost me some speed... will just have to find it in the gym.

appreciate the feedback! I’m in decent health other than weight... need to put in some time on flexibility.

[Myherobobhope]

Feeling good... did some stretching and finally feeling loose... practiced swinging hard on the range, which is always fun.

hoping to start lifting soon.

[976-Evil]

“Forget standard deadlifts”

No. You can stop right there.

There’s a reason why deadlifts are a core exercise for many sports. They work your glutes, hamstrings, spine, Lats, traps, Core, and quads. All of which

1. help you stabilize your body because it’s a total body strength exercise that works many muscles

2. Works your core to prevent injury (needed in golf)

3. Helps you develop power to explode through the ball

Do not skip deadlifts if you want more power.

 

As for your flexibility doesn’t equate to club head speed, yes it does. If one isn’t flexible then they’re more prone to injury, and can’t wind their body up to create a good force. Even John Daly was flexible, he a big boy. There’s a reason why guys with the faster swing speeds have good flexibility

 

Don’t skip stretching either.

[chipa]

I said standard deadlifts, which are generally with a lot more weight than the deadlift part of a power clean. The power clean deadlift is much more dynamic and of course is easier on the back long term because it entails lifting a lot less weight. For example, a person who is able to deadlift 350 lbs for reps would probably get to a max 200-250 lbs in the power clean deadlift w/o professional instruction.

[Guest]

I used to compete in the ReMax Years ago at 6’1 230. At your size very doable to break 120 mph. Work on your speed by hitting at least 100 drivers at the range everyday and swinging a weighted club. Work on flexibility and lengthening your arc and length of your swing and generating speed. Squats really helped me when I was training. I avoided getting too bulky in the upper body and focused on speed. Be careful with the heavy weights, I blew out my back at 30, can still break 120 mph at my age, but will never have elite speed again.

[Myherobobhope]

Thanks! Still currently nursing a sore hip as I got to intense with elastic band training early... everything is healthy just need to finish recovering.

[Guest]

That’s the key! Just try to stay healthy and avoid injury, it gets tougher when 40 approaches. When you hit the range try to hit at least 10-15 drivers as hard as you can each time you should hit 120 in no time if you stay consistent at the range.

[Myherobobhope]

Hip is feeling better... apparently I strained something... Going to get back into the gym next week.... I turn 39 at the end of September, so I have that as my current end goal for a fitness / health regime I'm going to start...

Playing in the member member tomorrow, so heavy weights have to wait.

[Myherobobhope]

On 7/31/2020 at 7:45 PM, Myherobobhope said:

Hip is feeling better... apparently I strained something... Going to get back into the gym next week.... I turn 39 at the end of September, so I have that as my current end goal for a fitness / health regime I'm going to start...

Playing in the member member tomorrow, so heavy weights have to wait.

Oh poor, naive me...

 

So apparently I had strained a tendon... playing in the member member and swinging through the pain did not help... I'm sidelined for a bit on the swinging and lifting aspect of things, but trying to work on strengthening what I can while I'm in recovery... PT has been good, and I'm hopeful to be back and chasing distance soon. 

 

Goal hasn't changed, the plan might be altered to account for my old man hips.

[Myherobobhope]

Oh how naive I was when I started this thread... Haven't played golf at all this month... still working on my hip...

 

The only good news is the rehab work includes lots of hip mobility and core strength... Got back into the gym for the first time today in probably 6 weeks... went super light and easy and didn't do any real fast twitch stuff...

 

Current plan is to get back to healthy while working on building out the basics, then use the improved frame to start working towards more fast twitch... 

 

I've also been thinking alot about how to better build lag into my swing, so I'm curious if it helps or if I just de-rail my swing for a little while... It was interesting for me to go back and see where I was when I started this post, even though it was only last month... I'll try to update as I get bored.

[Rosco1216]

You can do conventional deadlifts to gain explosiveness, core strength and overall power through the posterior chain and it’s much safer for a new lifter than hang cleans and power cleans.  
Hang cleans and power cleans are great for athletes but they take months and months of technique to become efficient enough in the movement to be able to perform it correctly under a decent load and still be safe. 

[Myherobobhope]

36 minutes ago, Rosco1216 said:

You can do conventional deadlifts to gain explosiveness, core strength and overall power through the posterior chain and it’s much safer for a new lifter than hang cleans and power cleans.  
Hang cleans and power cleans are great for athletes but they take months and months of technique to become efficient enough in the movement to be able to perform it correctly under a decent load and still be safe. 

I was actually doing light weight deadlifts today... 225 and just making sure it didn't hurt anything... 

[joostin]

Good thread, kind of on the same journey.  Avid lifter too but gyms are still closed here - miss it a lot.  I'm a little guy 5'6" 150 but similar age and swing speed, and like lifting heavy too.  Have always tried to mix bodyweight and mobility training in, especially nowadays.  Deadlifts absolutely recruit type 2 fast twitch muscle fibers, esp. close to 1 rep max pulls.  It's just not in a speed setting like power cleans, jumping, sprinting, swinging. Definitely maintain your deads and squats as long as you "listen to your body" like you are currently.  Personally I like to mix it up with conventional, sumo, and snatch grip deads.

 

A few months ago I hadn't swung for a while due to everything being covid closed.  I started Jaacob Bowden's swing workouts on youtube, and was barely swinging over 100. After a couple weeks of the band and swing training I was back averaging 111 eventually topping 117.  I have some low back and neck issues, but a lot of mobility work has gotten it better, so I think you're on the right path with your rehab.  I'd recommend his workouts if interested.  Just keep hitting balls throughout, because I found myself topping balls after coming back to playing.

 

Though we're completely different body types, I think great things for anyone in any sport (and with your oblique tweak in mind) are: anti-rotation / Palloff presses, dead bugs, twist lunges, regegade rows.  Some people I like on youtube that are not just about lifting, but

bodyweight training and mobility: Joe DeFranco, Chris Barnard, Zach Even Esh, Redefining Strength chick, Iron Wolf.  Theres so much lifting/training that's good for anyone who's physically able and is seeking power in golf or any sport:  Bodyweight stuff (like pushup variations, jumps, pullups/rows), heavy lifts esp. posterior chain, 50-70% loads for speed reps, slow eccentric / fast concentric, unilateral stuff, iso holds, ab work... Probably most important though would be rehabbing injuries, mobility work, and minimizing restrictions like tight hip flexors / hams / ankles / front delts / low back... All that and I think the sky's the limit my friend!

[Myherobobhope]

3 hours ago, joostin said:

Good thread, kind of on the same journey.  Avid lifter too but gyms are still closed here - miss it a lot.  I'm a little guy 5'6" 150 but similar age and swing speed, and like lifting heavy too.  Have always tried to mix bodyweight and mobility training in, especially nowadays.  Deadlifts absolutely recruit type 2 fast twitch muscle fibers, esp. close to 1 rep max pulls.  It's just not in a speed setting like power cleans, jumping, sprinting, swinging. Definitely maintain your deads and squats as long as you "listen to your body" like you are currently.  Personally I like to mix it up with conventional, sumo, and snatch grip deads.

 

A few months ago I hadn't swung for a while due to everything being covid closed.  I started Jaacob Bowden's swing workouts on youtube, and was barely swinging over 100. After a couple weeks of the band and swing training I was back averaging 111 eventually topping 117.  I have some low back and neck issues, but a lot of mobility work has gotten it better, so I think you're on the right path with your rehab.  I'd recommend his workouts if interested.  Just keep hitting balls throughout, because I found myself topping balls after coming back to playing.

 

Though we're completely different body types, I think great things for anyone in any sport (and with your oblique tweak in mind) are: anti-rotation / Palloff presses, dead bugs, twist lunges, regegade rows.  Some people I like on youtube that are not just about lifting, but

bodyweight training and mobility: Joe DeFranco, Chris Barnard, Zach Even Esh, Redefining Strength chick, Iron Wolf.  Theres so much lifting/training that's good for anyone who's physically able and is seeking power in golf or any sport:  Bodyweight stuff (like pushup variations, jumps, pullups/rows), heavy lifts esp. posterior chain, 50-70% loads for speed reps, slow eccentric / fast concentric, unilateral stuff, iso holds, ab work... Probably most important though would be rehabbing injuries, mobility work, and minimizing restrictions like tight hip flexors / hams / ankles / front delts / low back... All that and I think the sky's the limit my friend!

 

Sounds good, I had been using the fit for golf app ($12 a month, he actually responds, lots of good workouts) but as I'm just getting back and looking to avoid certain rotational movements to prevent re-injury, I've basically been doing my PT and trying to get back into the basic lifts while my hip recovers... I haven't swung a driver in approximately a month... It will be interesting to see where I am whenever I make it back to speed training.

[steventoo]

Interesting thread. Thanks for taking us along the journey with you. The entire premise is something I can totally relate to, aside from your size (I'm 177cm, 90kg). The golf struggles and injuries are definitely my area of expertise ?

 

I am battling a somewhat debilitating back injury at the moment - I have some fairly minor scoliosis which sometimes does stop me from playing golf but usually doesn't. At the moment it's causing some fairly major nerve pain in my back, legs, neck, and head, and while it hasn't kept me from playing golf it has kept me from regular gym work for the past few years. In that time, though, I've only lost a few miles per hour with my driver - I'm at 111mph or so now, versus 115 a few years ago. Of course there are and were outliers either side of that but I'm not good enough to make the higher outliers the standard.

 

My favourite gym days were front squat and power clean days... the rest of the routine was made up of dead lifts, back squats, Pendlay rows, bench press, push press, and I'd throw in some snatches for fun every so often. Accessory work included face pulls, back extensions, reverse hyper-extensions, pull ups, and a whole bunch of stretching and mobility work. I'd do a bunch of kettle bell swings on off days, too. I really miss it.

 

I haven't taken golf as seriously as I want to since my back troubles began, and I haven't played at all since the latest flare-up about six weeks ago. If I can get it sorted out (I'm even willing to investigate the surgical remedies) then there will probably be a long road ahead of me to get back to lifting and back to golf, but I'd rather try that than not try anything new.

 

Regarding 120mph... I feel that it's somewhat easily achievable from 110mph, without too much effort. Have a look at the TXG video where they added 10mph to Ian's swing in the space of an hour or so. It wasn't so much a strength issue but a technique and mechanics tweak. Maybe combine that approach with some swing speed training (I have some SuperSpeed Golf swing speed trainers, but I've used them about twice this year) and the weight and mobility work to get you beyond 120mph. At your size, it shouldn't be hard if you have the mobility.

 

I know that I can still generate some pretty decent driver speeds but it's just not consistent like I used to be. Arccos tells me that my driver "smart range" this year (I only bought them in January) is between 256 and 279 metres, with the longest at 335 metres (I remember that drive and there was a little wind assistance but it was mostly just speed and launch conditions). It's still a ways off my longest ever, but I'm also about 15 years older than I was then and much more broken.

 

So, here's to the 2020/2021 financial year being the year of pain free 120mph swings. Keep us in the loop - it's fun to follow along. Cheers! 

Edited August 30, 2020 by steventoo

[Arthur_Vandelay]

Thanks for making this thread. I'm hoping to get from 105 mph to 115 mph and am interested in any and all advice. A few things....

 

1. I've been working on swing speed this summer, and have been using one of those swing speed radars to monitor improvements. With dry swings, I've gone from low 100 mph to being able to hit 118 mph consistently, however I have only been able to translate that into about +2 mph in speed when hitting balls on a trackman. I know the radar I'm using is accurate because I've compared it against the trackman when hitting balls, and aside from the occasional wildly wrong reading its within 1 or 2 mph of trackman.

 

2. I've significantly improved my technique and gained a little bit of speed, but this has come at about the same time as I've lost a good amount of muscle from having not been in a gym for a bout 6 months due to covid.  So I'm really curious to see what happens with my swing speed when I'm able to add the muscle I've lost back on top of the swing improvements I've made. I was by no means a gym rat, but prior to the shutdown I had been lifting weights on average 3 days a week for 10+ years.  I'm currently 180 lbs which is 10 lbs lighter than my typical weight. I'm 6 feet tall.

 

3. I have a stock driver shaft that I believe is 45.5 inches and feels too long.  I know this goes against conventional wisdom, but I feel like I might be able to generate more speed with an inch shorter shaft for 2 reasons: (1) With the longer shaft I've found I need a heavier swing weight so I don't lose control of the head, so I'm thinking I can drop the swing weight on a shorter club without losing control, which from personal experience messing around with lighter swing weights adds speed for me, and (2) I have a hard team swinging aggressively with the longer club, which may be one of the reasons why I can't translate my dry swing speed gains to hitting a ball.

 

Anyway, I'm curious to hear OP's results and any advice from others that have tried to build more speed.

[Myherobobhope]

Still nursing an injured hip back to health... progress has been slow.

 

if you are going to lift weights anyways, do a golf specific exercise regiment. I’ve been using fit for golf and like it.

 

find a club length you are comfortable with... going after the ball requires confidence. You’ll be giving up potential speed, of course, but might actually gain real speed.

 

if your down a few pounds of muscle mass, it’s going to slow down your swing... build both back up doing explosive lifts. Just don’t hurt yourself!

[joostin]

On 8/30/2020 at 12:52 AM, steventoo said:

Have a look at the TXG video where they added 10mph to Ian's swing in the space of an hour or so. It wasn't so much a strength issue but a technique and mechanics tweak. Maybe combine that approach with some swing speed training

Thanks to this tip, I watched the TXG vid, and am happy to have finally hit 120 on my radar at the range, averaging 115.9 on 10 consecutive swings (still need to go to a Trackman to compare).  Strikes weren't all great swinging all out, but speed is definitely up trying a little bigger turn and trying to stomp the lead foot to lead the downswing and post off of it better.  I thought the radar was reading low when barely breaking 100 a couple months ago, but I guess I just sucked ?.  Though I'm still missing strength training at the gym, relieving pain in my back through static/dynamic stretching, foam rolling, etc. is allowing a more full through swing without it being a "governor" limiting it.

 

So keep listening to your body, then more reps, more work.  Maybe those topped out numbers can become averages!

[Myherobobhope]

I did, in fact, strain an oblique... pain has been in my hip, which is weird... Waiting to find out next steps, but most likely did it training for speed.

 

I'll be more careful when I recover, but I'm still chasing distance once I'm healthy.