Lowest Spin Tour Ball off the Driver

[ME27]

Left Dash has been great for me so far. High flying, low spinning, bit firmer than what im used to but has flat our performed for me. Im a higher spin player and this ball has been great for me. They are kind of hard to get your hands on compared to other balls but you should definitely give them a try.

[NRJyzr]

If you don't mind anecdotal on course observation.... and that it's not played on tour..... I found the Duo Professional to fly noticeably lower and with apparent less spin, than other balls I've played at the same time (MTB Black). Until I increased loft with driver, I found I was shorter with it. That simple loft bump was sufficient to equalize the distance.

Based on the test, if you're in the 115mph driver speed range, the lower compression could cost you a fair amount, but that distance difference diminishes in a non-linear manner as you reduce swingspeed.

FWIW, if its helpful for comparison's sake, I swing around 108 these days with driver, can touch 110 when the moon is right.

[ShowMe]

The “Start at the green” sounds like Titleist marketing propaganda.

I always start at the drive, then consider the approach shot, and then chips and pitches.

Why? Because if I get the first two correct, I’ll be hitting greens and won’t have to worry about the wedge.

[North Butte]

Sigh.

The difference between the best and worst possible ball for you off the tee is what, maybe 6-8 yards? That has an almost imperceptible influence on your scoring.

On the other hand there are very real differences in behavior around the greens, touch and feel and on approach shot spin and trajectory. Playing a ball with all those "starting from the green" thing wrong for your game is definitely going to cost you strokes.

That's why good players won't play a ball that doesn't suit them around the green or on approach shots. They make sure of that first and then move on to trying to eke out the last couple yards of driver distance among the balls that worked "starting from the green".

But I'm sure there are plenty of golfers out there who don't care about hitting their iron shot windows or reacting perfectly on low spinner wedge shots as long as they can find the one that lets them get that last 200rpm of spin and 3.5 yards of carry distance with their driver. Heck, Bridgestone has made a bunch of money over the years "fitting" people into a ball that buys them a couple extra yard off their driver.

[pollock21]

We get your opinion. However, time and time again I’ve explained that it’s not the information I’m looking for. So once agin, please keep this on topic.

I’m only interested in the driver spin portion. And I honestly don’t know why I have to keep saying this?

This question is only related to driver performance. I’m not asking about anything else.

[bluedot]

I have no idea how Titleist "fits" golf balls; I've never looked.

Literally, there is NO reputable independent source that recommends anything else besides working from the green back to the tee. The reasons for that are simple, clear, and verifiable. That there are individuals that don't like that approach or the data it is based on is irrelevant.

[pollock21]

Got it. Thanks for the information. However, this thread is dedicated to driver performance and not green side or iron performance. If you’d like to start a thread on ball fitting from the green back, please go start one yourself. That is not what this thread is about.

[ShowMe]

So many unknown Internet geniuses out there who know everything about everybody else's game. "Iron shot window." lol. Unless you're on the tour, you just sound pretentious when you say that.

For me, it's a 10 yard difference off the tee. 5 yard difference on approach shots. 15 yards in total. That's a club and a half. And that is significant. I'd much rather hit a 9 iron than a choke down 7 iron. Again, if I hit the green I never have to worry about the wedge.

That said, equally important to me is how straight the ball flies. My home course has very narrow tree lined fairways. Average fairway is only 25 yards wide. Thick Bermuda rough. Most of the greens are surrounded by bunkers. Left, right, and front.

So I need a ball that goes a decent distance but stays relatively straight, because I have a tendency to overdraw the ball. Not a hook, mind you. Just a hard draw. Meaning I need a low-ish spin ball. And yes, lower spin does lead to straighter shots (and longer shots off the irons).

Last year's Bridgestone Tour B RX fits that bill for me. And yes, this ball is 10 yds longer off the tee and 5 yds longer on approach shots than the Pro V's, for me. A club and half longer. "Your mileage may vary."

To the OP, I would put this ball into the low-spin off the driver category compared to any of the Titleist, Callaway, Srixon, Taylormade, or other Bridgestone premium balls. The TPx is pretty low spin for me, too. My average swing speed is 104. Used to be 118 back in the day, but I'm old now.

[North Butte]

I don't know your game but I'll bet you would not use a Pinnacle Gold no matter how long or straight it was off the tee, because you need a ball you can control on approach shots and around the green.

That's the whole point. Any decent player will use only balls he can control "starting from the green" and then among those will select the one that suits him off the tee. Which I believe is exactly what you've done.

Your particular needs and preferences put relatively more weight than some people on off-the-tee performance. But I can't believe you don't demand a certain level of greenside performance from a ball before you even start testing it off the tee. In the wide world of golf balls the "low spin" options you are talking about still spin a lot. Yes, your B RX spins somewhat less than a Pro V1x but either of them spins worlds more than an e12 Soft (or whatever they calling it nowadays).

[bluedot]

I replied to a comment by someone else, not you This is a discussion board, and the discussion goes where it goes, on this thread like every other.

You've asked a question that calls for opinions for answers, and you've made it clear over and over and over and over that you don't care at all about testing data. When someone posts an opinion, there are going to be answers and discussion of that opinion; that's the way this works, on this and every other thread. You can post a topic and start a discussion, where that discussion goes is not something you control.

And in this case, you've made it especially complicated to control because you are asking for opinions that run counter to every objective fact about golf balls that is KNOWN to be true. You've asked a bad question with, therefore, no real answers. You don't like the real answer, and have made that abundantly clear for days now. Which is fine, but you're going to keep getting it because it's the truth, plain and simple.

[pollock21]

Respectfully, once again, please start your own thread for ball fitting for irons and green side control and keep this thread on topic.

This thread is related to driver spin/performance only.

There is testing data already provided which proves there are several RPM difference between various tour balls. There is player validation that certain balls for them have proven to be longer or perform better than others off of the driver.

Nobody here is "wrong" because they happen to find a certain ball is better off a driver than others. I'm simply asking for those that found performance benefits to share them. It is not constructive to the conversation to tell those people that they are incorrect for posting their findings.

[bluedot]

Your thread has been up for a couple of weeks now, and there have been, I think seven responses in that time where anybody offered any sort of a ball option to you. And there has been exactly ONE true Tour ball mentioned as an option, the V1x left dash. Nobody on any Tour is likely to ever play any of the others mentioned; an RX version of a Bridgestone ball, nor the Titleist AVX, nor the Wilson Duo, though I suppose that your OP wording using "tour quality" leaves the door open for interpretation.
And the left dash probably is as close to an answer as you're going to get, at least according to the Titleist marketing, which characterizes the left dash firm and launching like a V1x but spinning more like an AVX. There's no testing data on it to confirm the marketing that I can find, but that shouldn't be a problem here because you don't want that information anyway.
So there's your ball!
Side note: It would be interesting to know how many of the people that suggested the left dash have actually played the ball, given that it is a special order item not available at retail, and only available as a special order since last October. But that's another question entirely and doesn't matter in the context of what you are interested in.
And that's the last you'll hear from me unless somebody else comments on my posts. As an alternative, you could block me so that you don't have to read anything I write.

[arbeck]

Except for a few outliers, almost all tour balls are going to be in a very tight range (say 200 RPM) or so off the driver. Even when a company offers a low spin and high spin ball, off the driver they are close to identical. From the big ball test there was 14 RPM difference between a V1/V1x, 124 RPM between TP5/TP5x, 51 RPM between Z-star/XV, 173 RPM between Chromesoft/X, and 195 between a BX/BXS. All the balls are pretty much optimized for the driver. The difference in distance caused by spin will be imperceptible to a human on a golf course. It would take hundreds of shots with an advanced tracking system to really find a difference. These balls are all designed to do basically the same thing off a driver.

 

The difference in the balls, is with other clubs. Hit them with a 9i or PW and you could see 1000 RPM difference between two balls.  That could easily be a half club of distance. This is the place where the balls are designed to do different things.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by arbeck

[wsomol]

I’ve played the AVX a few times recently and anecdotally it was a little longer and I believe spun less off the driver than the Pro V1s I usually play. That translated to irons too where I would get more roll out with the AVXs.  Anecdotal and one guy’s experience, but just wanted to add it here in case it’s helpful.

[ME27]

On 8/11/2020 at 11:08 AM, bluedot said:

Your thread has been up for a couple of weeks now, and there have been, I think seven responses in that time where anybody offered any sort of a ball option to you. And there has been exactly ONE true Tour ball mentioned as an option, the V1x left dash. Nobody on any Tour is likely to ever play any of the others mentioned; an RX version of a Bridgestone ball, nor the Titleist AVX, nor the Wilson Duo, though I suppose that your OP wording using "tour quality" leaves the door open for interpretation.
And the left dash probably is as close to an answer as you're going to get, at least according to the Titleist marketing, which characterizes the left dash firm and launching like a V1x but spinning more like an AVX. There's no testing data on it to confirm the marketing that I can find, but that shouldn't be a problem here because you don't want that information anyway.
So there's your ball!
Side note: It would be interesting to know how many of the people that suggested the left dash have actually played the ball, given that it is a special order item not available at retail, and only available as a special order since last October. But that's another question entirely and doesn't matter in the context of what you are interested in.
And that's the last you'll hear from me unless somebody else comments on my posts. As an alternative, you could block me so that you don't have to read anything I write.

I have been exclusively playing left dash this year and has been great for me but cant say that it will translate as well to other people without trying. My local course pro shop has them in stock so very easy for me to get my hands on now. 

[bluedot]

21 hours ago, ME27 said:

I have been exclusively playing left dash this year and has been great for me but cant say that it will translate as well to other people without trying. My local course pro shop has them in stock so very easy for me to get my hands on now. 

 

Yep; saw a bunch of boxes of the left dashes at the Golf Galaxy near me just yesterday.  They were in a display of all the ProV1's marked as the 2019 models, so I assume Titleist is trying to clear out inventory.

[North Butte]

Titleist cleared out a fair bit of their Left Dash inventory by accidentally shipping my 4-for-3 Loyalty Reward promo order twice. It was kind of weird, I got my four dozen balls, started playing them, then a couple weeks later FedEx tells me I have an incoming package. Four more dozen. Titleist said it was their mistake, just keep 'em but don't worry about paying for them.

 

If I'm honest, I can't tell one way or another any difference in my game between Left Dash and regular Pro V1x. I ordered Left Dash this year just on an impulse. Good thing I like them, as I have enough to last a long, long time!

 

There is certainly a difference in sound and feel to the Left Dash, even chipping and putting they have a different click. But when I hit a shot with a Left Dash, then the same shot with the regular Pro V1x they feel different but fly exactly the same and end up in the same place. Obviously a better player (and/or faster swinger) than me would have a different experience. But for me it's been much ado about nothing, really. It's just a Pro V1x with a click.

[GBBM]

On 8/18/2020 at 9:36 AM, arbeck said:

Except for a few outliers, almost all tour balls are going to be in a very tight range (say 200 RPM) or so off the driver. Even when a company offers a low spin and high spin ball, off the driver they are close to identical. From the big ball test there was 14 RPM difference between a V1/V1x, 124 RPM between TP5/TP5x, 51 RPM between Z-star/XV, 173 RPM between Chromesoft/X, and 195 between a BX/BXS. All the balls are pretty much optimized for the driver. The difference in distance caused by spin will be imperceptible to a human on a golf course. It would take hundreds of shots with an advanced tracking system to really find a difference. These balls are all designed to do basically the same thing off a driver.

 

The difference in the balls, is with other clubs. Hit them with a 9i or PW and you could see 1000 RPM difference between two balls.  That could easily be a half club of distance. This is the place where the balls are designed to do different things.

 

 

Isn’t that robot data? 

[arbeck]

18 hours ago, GBBM said:

Isn’t that robot data? 

A golf ball doesn't know who hits it. A golf ball just reacts to the spin loft number of the club (until you get to really high lofts and the face friction starts to take over) and the speed at which it was hit. A low spin ball is low spin for everyone, a high spin ball is high spin for everyone. A high spin player might be able to get away with a lower spin ball, but there is no magic ball that will spin less for a high spin player and more for a low spin player. For ball testing, robots are actually what we want.

[GBBM]

1 hour ago, arbeck said:

A golf ball doesn't know who hits it. A golf ball just reacts to the spin loft number of the club (until you get to really high lofts and the face friction starts to take over) and the speed at which it was hit. A low spin ball is low spin for everyone, a high spin ball is high spin for everyone. A high spin player might be able to get away with a lower spin ball, but there is no magic ball that will spin less for a high spin player and more for a low spin player. For ball testing, robots are actually what we want.

 

The data you provide shows that the spin differences really start to manifest themselves as the face angle becomes more oblique. Human golfers of varying abilities will present oblique face angles at times in the long game.
 

We know that—with a square face and path—there isn’t a lot of spin difference off the driver. But I bet some interesting findings would pop up if the robot simulated imperfect human swings. 

[arbeck]

18 minutes ago, GBBM said:

 

The data you provide shows that the spin differences really start to manifest themselves as the face angle becomes more oblique. Human golfers of varying abilities will present oblique face angles at times in the long game.
 

We know that—with a square face and path—there isn’t a lot of spin difference off the driver. But I bet some interesting findings would pop up if the robot simulated imperfect human swings. 

 

if your swing was presenting such a weird spin loft where that happened, it would almost surely override the ball.

[North Butte]

2 hours ago, arbeck said:

 

if your swing was presenting such a weird spin loft where that happened, it would almost surely override the ball.

 

Yes, now we're crossing over into the magic low-spin ball that somehow makes an open-faced wipe across the ball NOT result in a ball slicing out of play. Kind of like the old Bridgestone e6 marketing campaign. 

[GBBM]

Yes I believe balls with different construction will behave differently when struck at varying angles. Call me crazy. 
 

Robot data is great, I wish there were more of it. But I’d like to see someone do a robot test that mimics the average golfer’s mishit tendencies and present that data. 

[pallmall]

TaylorMade TP5X has low spin off the driver. Nike RZN Tour Black is also good (if you can find it).

Although it may be a bit off the topic, some tee makers claim their tees can offer reduced spin, like Callaway. So a low spin ball with a good tee may reduce the ball spin even more.

Edited August 21, 2020 by pallmall

[arbeck]

17 hours ago, GBBM said:

Yes I believe balls with different construction will behave differently when struck at varying angles. Call me crazy. 
 

Robot data is great, I wish there were more of it. But I’d like to see someone do a robot test that mimics the average golfer’s mishit tendencies and present that data. 

You asked for me to call you crazy, so I will.

 

The ball's spin is created by the spin loft applied to it and the speed at which it was struck. It is not possible to design a ball that increases spin when low spin loft is applied but decreases it when high spin loft is applied. If you lower spin for one, you lower spin for the other and vice versa. Robot testing won't tell you how much you will spin ball A or B. But if A spins more for the robot, it's going to spin more for you. The slower you swing and the less spin you impart will narrow the gap between A and B, but there's no swing on earth that will make B spin more than A given equal deliveries on the two balls.

[GBBM]

On 8/21/2020 at 10:24 AM, arbeck said:

You asked for me to call you crazy, so I will.

 

The ball's spin is created by the spin loft applied to it and the speed at which it was struck. It is not possible to design a ball that increases spin when low spin loft is applied but decreases it when high spin loft is applied. If you lower spin for one, you lower spin for the other and vice versa. Robot testing won't tell you how much you will spin ball A or B. But if A spins more for the robot, it's going to spin more for you. The slower you swing and the less spin you impart will narrow the gap between A and B, but there's no swing on earth that will make B spin more than A given equal deliveries on the two balls.

just to make sure I’m understanding correctly, you’re throwing out the role of cover/mantle frictional properties in regards to how much a ball will spin at a given spin loft? 

[arbeck]

On 8/26/2020 at 10:33 AM, GBBM said:

just to make sure I’m understanding correctly, you’re throwing out the role of cover/mantle frictional properties in regards to how much a ball will spin at a given spin loft? 

No, I'm not. The cover/mantle frictional properties just react to the spin loft though. What you can't do is design those components to give you more spin when less spin loft is applied and more spin when you apply less spin loft.

[monks66]

Just start playing Snell MTB Black...end of story!

[bluedot]

54 minutes ago, arbeck said:

No, I'm not. The cover/mthantle frictional properties just react to the spin loft though. What you can't do is design those components to give you more spin when less spin loft is applied and more spin when you apply less spin loft.

 

It is amazing that it is so hard for people to understand what you are saying about golf balls and how different construction and materials react.  You've done a very nice job on this thread; I'm sorry that so much of it seems to fall on deaf ears.

[LCP]

pollock, at about the same time you picked up a more forgiving driver head (G410 Plus), I did too, and am chasing this same exact thing.  I've watched the same videos.  My current ball is a Tour B X.  I plan to generally keep playing it, but I've thought about getting some Titleist ProV1 left dash for long bombs.  They are expensive though.  I've theorized that the AVS is the "almost as good" alternative, and the only other ball I might consider would be the Taylormade TP5x, but I think those go too far with irons.  That said, that can be an advantage if I'm hitting into a strong wind, since those will be less affected with their lower spin.

 

It's too bad no one wanted to share their experiences of what makes different balls different.  I'll freely share I think both versions of the ProV1 and Chrome Soft are short, spin too much and don't fly straight.