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Golf equipment truths: Why you should rethink your driver loft


PingPoncho

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"To be clear, less loft isn’t the answer for everyone, especially players who don’t have a positive angle of attack. But that’s the benefit of going through a quality driver fitting with an experienced fitter and a launch monitor"

"Almost every group in the test had a positive angle of attack"

Both are quotes from that article. What the article should have been named was "why a proper driver fitting can gain you 23 yards or more" this is all stuff that's been known for a while, optimising launch a spin to get maximum performance. For some people lower can be better, and since almost everyone they were testing with was hitting up on the ball, lower was better. Don't go out and buy a lower lofted driver just because you think it might work, unless you get fit, you won't know what will benefit you

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As it says in the article "To be clear, less loft isn’t the answer for everyone, especially players who don’t have a positive angle of attack"

All this article is really saying is "Hit up on the ball and loft down for more distance", nothing about this is new or revolutionary.

It is all about angle of attack and dynamic loft. There is no one "a-ha!" answer to this question. A positive angle of attack (without flipping) creates higher launch without increasing spin (strike for strike), so lofting down here helps create more ideal launch conditions. Bryson is the extreme example of that right now, while Rory is the perfect example of a swing built around this concept and consistently be one of the best off the tee year after year. But this same concept would not/does not work for people like Brooks, or DJ, or Sergio, whos natural swings and deliveries are very different. Yes Sergio could start hitting up on the ball, but he himself has said he feels he could not keep it on the planet that way.

tl;dr - Hit up and loft down for maximum distance, but only if hitting up is something that doesn't compromise your natural delivery.

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Titleist TSi3 9* Tensei AV White 65TX 2.0 // Taylormade SIM 9* Ventus TR Blue 6TX
Taylormade Stealth+ 16.5* Ventus Black 8x // Taylormade SIM Ti V2 16.5* Ventus TR Blue 7X
Callaway Apex UW 19* Ventus Black 8x // Srixon ZX Utility MKII 18* Graphite Design AD-IZ 95X
Callaway X-Forged Single Diamond 22* Nippon GOST Hybrid Tour X 
Bridgestone 
J40 DPC 4i-7i 24*- 35* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Bridgestone J40 CB 8i-PW 39*- 48* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0

Taylormade Milled Grind Raw 54* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Vokey SM6 58* Oil Can Low Bounce K-Grind Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Scotty Cameron Newport Tour Red Dot || Taylormade Spider X Navy Slant

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I let the numbers speak during a fitting, could care less what loft my driver is, what shaft or flex im playing. Whatever goes the straight and far I'll play.

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Lefty - WITB Thread

Driver: 10° Cobra LTDxLS | AD-IZ 6X 

3W: 15° Callaway Paradym X | AD-IZ 7X

3H: 19° Ping G410 | Tensei CK Pro Orange 90TX

Irons: PXG 0311P 4-6 | 0317CB 7-PW | DG 120 X100

Wedges: SM9 50° - 54° - 58° 

Putter(s): Ping PLD Anser 4K | CMD Gauge R | and more. 

Ball: TP5X 2024

Bag: Ghost Katana

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eijoravvuaav3g2.jpgI think Ping states it best.

eijoravvuaav3g2.jpg

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10.5 deg Titleist 905R with stock UST Proforce V2 Shaft (Stiff flex)
Titleist 990 (3-PW) with stock Dynamic Gold in S300
Taylormade V-Steel 5W & 3W with Grafalloy Prolaunch Red shafts (Regular Flex)
2011 Adams Tom Watson signature wedges in 52 and 56 degrees with stock steel shafts (Player's Grind)
Rife Island Series Aruba Blade Putter

 

"Loft for loft, length for length, and shaft for shaft, the ball will go the same distance when hit on the sweet spot regardless how old the iron."

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I'm 39 with no regular back problems and low single digit handicap, but when somebody tries to put me into the positions to hit way up on the driver it hurts my back. Go figure. I got fitted into a 105* Ping LST and it's the happiest I've been with a driver in decades. Highest loft I've played maybe ever.

At the end of the day it just didn't make sense for me to ditch my swing and put stress on my back at the same time. I don't really care how many articles tell me to hit way up on it.

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And warm

in my group scores of 105 are called “room numbers” or “radio stations”

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Ping G400 LST 11* Ventus Black TR 5x

Ping G400 3w 15.1* GD AD IZ 5x

Ping G400 7w 19.5* Ventus Red 6x 

Ping G425 4h 22* Blueboard HY 80x

Ping i210 6i & s55 7i - PW Steelfiber 110s

Ping Glide Wrx 49*, 54*, 59*ES, Tour W 64* SF 125s

EvnRoll ER9
 

 

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From assorted golf club fitting stalls: 1. Loft is the primary factor measured for driver fittings. 2. Shaft helps fine-tune the driver.

With seniors, it depends in part on the weather. In the spring, when the turf is softer, your carry is about 96% of what you get from a driver. Once you get into mid-July, and the ground gets harder, lofting down a bit helps gain a sharper angle of descent, plus skip once the ball hits. Lots of seniors with almost-medium ball height get 40-50 yards or runout on harder fairways.

As others have suggested, get on the Trackman and see which loft - ball tee height gives you the best numbers.

As the article said, " What’s also helping is more forgiving driver designs that locate the center of gravity back and low. This naturally creates more dynamic loft and is why a lower-loft angle could benefit a lot of golfers."

This is old news for those who followed the turmoil amid fairway woods circa 2012 (image below courtesy of TM).

image.pngis the higher, more forward CoG for "lower, boring flight" / 2. is a lower, more rearward CoG for more spin and higher launch, and for many golfers more distance.So, you have to understand a little of the physics of driver / golf club function to find what's best for you. Again, get Trackman data, and then deconstruct it to find out what you really need to improve driver performance.

What's In The Bag (As of April 2023, post-MAX change + new putter)

 

Driver:  Tour Edge EXS 10.5° (base loft); weights neutral   ||  FWs:  Calla Rogue 4W + 7W

Hybrid:  Calla Big Bertha OS 4H at 22°  ||  Irons:  Calla Mavrik MAX 5i-PW

Wedges*:  Calla MD3: 48°... MD4: 54°, 58° ||  PutterΨSeeMore FGP + SuperStroke 1.0PT, 33" shaft

Ball: 1. Srixon Q-Star Tour / 2. Calla SuperHot (Orange preferred)  ||  Bag: Sun Mountain Three 5 stand bag

    * MD4 54°/10 S-Grind replaced MD3 54°/12 W-Grind.

     Ψ  Backups:

  • Ping Sigma G Tyne (face-balanced) + Evnroll Gravity Grip |
  • Slotline Inertial SL-583F w/ SuperStroke 2.MidSlim (50 gr. weight removed) |
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I'm playing the lowest loft I have, basically ever, and yes I gained yards. I play 10.5 in soft well-watered summer Illinois and 9.5 in firm dry winter Arizona. I used to play 12-13 and enjoyed the high life. But I carry these about the same and get more roll. Was I mis-fitted before, I am not so sure. Just that the thinking has changed. ~90 MPH, basically level AoA.

M4 Driver
4, 7, 9 woods

5, 6 Adams hybrids
7-GW Maltby irons
54 & 58º Wedges
LAB Mezz.1 box stock
 
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I swing about like you do. In 2017 and early 2018 I was playing a 12-degree Ping driver and hitting it somewhat straight, nice and high and typically getting just over 200 yards on mostly not-very-firm fairways.

Swapped it for a 10.5-degree M4 which didn't fly quite as high but still got plenty of hang time. I really don't think it got a whole lot more roll under normal conditions than the Ping but somehow my distances went up about 7-8 yards and as it happens I also hit slightly more fairways. Kind of a win-win, a bit longer, a bit straighter and on the rare occasions I played in firm and fast conditions, man that ball would really get out there.

I've recently experimented with a 9-degree Callaway driver cranked up to 11 degrees using the hosel adjustment. No beueno. Going down might work but when you go too low, that costs you way more than it does being a bit too high.

If I may philosophize a bit here...

There's a lot of clever "advice" batted around on these forums. We're told that the OEM's are all in some sort of weird marketing race to try and sell us clubs that are too long, too light, too strong lofted, too this, too that. We ought to Loft Up then chop those drivers down to 43" rather than let Big, Bad Taylormade or Callaway ruin our golf games with their horrible mis-specified standard clubs.

You and I are both about dead average when it comes to clubhead speed and I know at least for my part I'm dead average physically (about 6 feet, 20-30 pounds overweight, couch potato, middle-aged). TIme and again I find that my best results come from things like that M4 driver. Just the plain vanilla 10.5 loft, the stock supposedly mediocre shaft, playing at the straight-out-the-box 45-3/4" or what have you. I never end up doing as well with higher lofts, shorter shafts, what have you.

Same with irons, I play a set with "jacked lofts" and yet I hit my 8-iron about 10 yards longer than my 9-iron, then 10 more yards for the 7-iron and right on up through the set. Where's the supposed problem? I'm an average golfer so I buy average clubs and, go figure, they work pretty well for me. It's almost like the OEM's actually have a clue about how to make clubs that average golfers will get good results from.

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I hit a very high ball to begin with. Turned my driver down to 8 degrees from 10 and I have been bombing it. Had a new driver fitting, got a Cally Epic Subzero and was getting around 2000 spin and a bunch more distance with my 97 mph swing.

 

Callaway Rogue Max LS Driver, 9 degrees, Tensei Blue shaft

Mizuno ST180 5 wood

Ping G425 Max 7 wood
Srixon ZX4 4 iron
Srixon ZX5 irons 5-PW, Nippon N.S. Pro Modus 3 Tour 120 shafts

Cleveland RTX6 48* wedge

Cleveland Zipcore 54* wedge
Cleveland RTX 58* full face wedge
Nike Method Core Drone 2.0 putter 34"
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@PingPoncho : FYI, I posted this in another discussion in this Forum awhile ago (re "High-Lofted Drivers" ... *Link below ), but from your questions ==> Sounds like you might also like to have a look at Dave Tutelman's analysis for Golf Digest/Mike Stachura, entitled "How much distance are you leaving out there?" : https://www.tutelman.com/golf/clubs/Mike0.php (* +see also: @Howard_Jones 's explanations/nice reply to this newbie, in the same thread:
(*Link:"High Lofted Drivers" ==> https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/19350524/#Comment_19350524)
Tutelman: "We come up with five ways the average golfer can increase driving distance without needing to increase clubhead speed. The example we used is a golfer with an 86mph clubhead speed. We discovered 30 extra yards -- 15% of his potential yardage -- to be reclaimed. Here are the things to do to find those yards".
FYI Tutelman is a retired-Bell Labs engineer & has been featured in Golf Digest:  https://tutelman.com/golf/justgolf/golfDigestArticle.php (Link: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/do-it-yourself-how-to-build-your-own-clubs)
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/477/8CBA1ZO7TZZL.png[/img]@cgasucks : Thanks for the Ping chart you shared...
it reminds me of another Tutelman chart (albeit different focus, i.e. Tutelman's chart= showed "Launch Space fo 86mph driver"). https://www.tutelman.com/golf/clubs/Mike2.php

[img]http://www.tutelman.com/golf/clubs/centerOfGravity/launchSpace.gif[/img]
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@PingPoncho : FYI, I posted this in another discussion in this Forum awhile ago (re "High-Lofted Drivers" ... *Link below ), but sounds like your questions ==> You might also like to have a look at Dave Tutelman's analysis for Golf Digest/Mike Stachura, entitled "How much distance are you leaving out there?" : https://www.tutelman.com/golf/clubs/Mike0.php (* +see also: @Howard_Jones 's explanations/nice reply to this newbie, in the same thread:
(*Link:"High Lofted Drivers" ==> https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/19350524/#Comment_19350524)
Tutelman: "We come up with five ways the average golfer can increase driving distance without needing to increase clubhead speed. The example we used is a golfer with an 86mph clubhead speed. We discovered 30 extra yards -- 15% of his potential yardage -- to be reclaimed. Here are the things to do to find those yards".
FYI Tutelman is a retired-Bell Labs engineer & has been featured in Golf Digest:  https://tutelman.com/golf/justgolf/golfDigestArticle.php (Link: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/do-it-yourself-how-to-build-your-own-clubs)
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/477/8CBA1ZO7TZZL.png[/img]@cgasucks : Thanks for sharing that Ping chart ... it reminded me of a similar Tutelman chart (albeit from different perspective i.e. "Launch space for a 86mpg driver"): https://www.tutelman.com/golf/clubs/Mike2.php
[img]http://www.tutelman.com/golf/clubs/centerOfGravity/launchSpace.gif[/img]
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The issue with a chart like that, and Trackmans "optimum charts" is that they both gives the impression of that Angle of attack is the key for more distance, and that a negative AOA gains a lot of spin, but thats a truth with large modifications.

Launch angle is a question of DYNAMIC loft, and the average factor from Dynamic loft to launch is 0.84, so YES, angle of attack is part of it, just like static loft is, but if we dont have a positive angle of attack, we can compensate equally with static loft. Some will now say, but that changes spin values, and thats correct enough if we make impact on the same spot on the face, and for the driver, vertical gear effects is the ruler of spin.

If we now add face ROLL to it, we get to see that most drivers has lower loft on the bottom of the face than the middle, and higher loft above the middle. Since vertical gear effects adds spin with impact below VCOG and cut off spin above VCOG, the place to start is to find where VCOG is located on your club head.

The ideal impact location on the face is always above the center line of the face, that both adds launch and cut of spin, so even players with a negative AOA can take advantage of this, and just pick the loft that brings launch angle to the area they want, and take advantage of face roll, and vertical gear effects to raise launch even further and cut of spin.

This illustration shows how launch and spin might change, there is always varieties here due to both face roll and the club heads RCOG / Moi value on the vertical axis, but the average numbers i found in my studio was that for each 1/8" we move impact up, launch angle changed with 0.35* and spin value dropped by 240, so as example, a player who see spin values around 2700, can bring them down to 2000 and add about 1* to launch angle just by moving impact 3/8" higher on the face.

The illustration is made just like USGAs air cannon test, where the club head is fixed and the ball is shot against the face. This way we take both AOA and shaft bending out of the equation, so we can see how a 10.5* lofted club head will return the ball all depending on impact height on the face.

image.pngThis is also the reason for why we always must pay attention to where we make impact to understand the return values. Way to many players have a shaft where weight is good, feel is good and dispersion is good, but they complain about spin values being to high, so they look for a different shaft to fix it. This players should simply dial in a impact a bit higher on the face, and their issue will be solved.

So, we dont need a positive AOA to improve, we need a better impact location on the face and enough static loft, and thats why i dont like those charts who specify a Angle of attack number who can be equalized by adding more static loft, and without "bad spin values" if we take advantage of vertical gear affects, and adjust the weighting on our club head to cut of the unwanted spin.

For those with heads that has weights we can moved forward or backward, be aware of that Vertical gear affects changes with this. More forward is less dynamic loft, and higher spin with low face impact and lower spin with high face impact, and if we move weights back, we add dynamic loft and launch, and reduce the varieties in spin values (it want go silly high with low impact, but want cut off as much as it can with high impact either), so dont overdo this in any directions, it might cost on the "forgiveness account" if we move them to much forward, so find the right "balance" between spin cut off and forgiveness that works the best for you, so both distance and dispersion becomes good.

Start by finding VCOG on your club head, and try to make impact in that area. How to locate VCOG is described in my DIY driver tune uphttps://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/909991/diy-driver-tune-up-diy-fitting

 

Adding 3 charts, all based on Flightscopes algorithm

The first 135 mpg ball speed is relevant for players with about 90 mph club speed (smash 1.50) - the next 150 ball speed is relevant for players at about 100, and the last with 165 ball speed is relevant for players at about 110 mph club speed. GREEN Fields is max carry for the actual launch angle (combined with ball speed and spin), but we dont really want spin values below 1750. RED numbers is the shortest carry for that launch angle.

For short, low launch needs more spin, and high launch needs lower spin, so we should have a good combination of both launch and spin for good distance. Impact position is the key for both maximized ball speed, good launch numbers and spin values.

 

image.png

image.png

image.png

 

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image.pngThis photo that Howard shared brings back fond memories for me. For a few months in 2018 I was driving the ball the best I can ever recall. I had a Taylormade M4 driver and that summer and fall I got in a groove where I was just wearing out an area between the green smiley face and the letter E in "TWIST FACE".

It became pretty clear that the shots where I made impact at the visual center of the face (just below the red dot with the + sign above) were not nearly as good as the ones higher and toward the toe. And I mean like 8-10 yards less distance and much less hang time from shots on the visual "sweet spot". I was vaguely aware of the lower spin with high face contact and the extra clubhead speed from toe rotation but the difference in results with contact up there was pretty extreme.

For the past year I've stupidly been playing other drivers and just not getting anything like the same results. Part of that is my swing has worsened I think but I'm going back to the M4 because I think it suits my swing tendencies. In particular, I found some COG/MOI charts (published by a certain web site that must not be named but rhymes with Buy Golf Buy) that show the M4 is fairly unique in having a very high vertical COG that's also fairly deep in terms of front-back COG. I think M4's COG was farther above the neutral axis than just about any driver out there.

So I'm thinking the tweaks TM made to the bulge and roll in the toe area combined with that high VCOG, for my swing at least, lets me take maximum advantage of the effect that Howard is referring to. I've never hit any other driver where high-toe impact was noticeably better than middle-of-face impact. I'd imagine it's a slight advantage with almost any driver but it all kind of clicks for me with M4.

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@North Butte
I chose the M4 from those COG charts too. It's been my experience that I do better with that type of profile. One year the article said that that profile is only for a small percentage of golfers, but you and I must be in there. I don't get much spin, for whatever reason, and have found that low spin heads are not that great for me. I'm assuming the M4 is higher spin but have not had it tested.
If you look from overhead, the M4 face seems to be offset to the heel side. It must be intentional but not sure why. Like you, I get better hits a little out towards the toe. And while I'm praising it, it is the best toe hit shot shape I've ever had. I've had some 460 drivers with not enough bulge, which resulted in big gear effect hooks. But this Twist Face is perfect. Finally, I too get along great with the stock Atmos 5 shaft. It is the best driver swing timing I can recall. It's funny, the butt CPM indicates it is super stiff. But it feels normal, so something else is going on. I bought a used one on eBay, with no adapter, so I hope to profile it sooner or later. Unfortunately my 454g weight is in my place in Arizona.

M4 Driver
4, 7, 9 woods

5, 6 Adams hybrids
7-GW Maltby irons
54 & 58º Wedges
LAB Mezz.1 box stock
 
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The first time I ever saw an M4 was when I went in the local golf shop to look at M2's. Several guys I play with had been getting M2 drivers and liking them. The M4 just looked soooooo much better at address. That shift toward the heel and drawn back toe profile just looked easy to aim and hit. It took me a while to talk myself into springing for the M4 but I never even considered M2 after seeing M4.

I use the Atmos Black 5R and I'm guessing it is NOT counterbalanced at all. If anything it must be slightly lower balance point than some. The assembled M4 driver (with stock 46g grip) weighs on 299g with that shaft in it yet the swingweight is D3. Most of these shafts nowadays are at least slightly high balance point and a 299g driver would end up swingweighting D0 at best.

All I know is, I made a mistake getting rid of it the first time around. At some point I care less about WHY it works and more about having the darned thing in my bag every day when I step on the first tee!

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@North Butte
I did not want to go any deeper into the tech stuff, i understand this is NOT the Tech part of the forum, but just let me add a few things here.
We might think that "max MOI" is the best (long RCOG), but thats not always the case, since its all a question of VCOG, RCOG and Angle of attack combined, so its really a bit complicated. When we measure VCOG on the face, we really dont get VCOG where it is, since there is a "triangle" where RCOG gets involved like this: Pay attention to the YELLOW triangle. the PEN method we use will locate VCOG higher than it actually is in address position, but then we have Angle of attack, or the direction COG travels at the moment of impact.
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/2Y7BSKJY4EXH/image.png[/img]
If RCOG is located 35 mm behind the face, our PEN method to find VOCG moves us about 18.5 mm (0.73 inch) higher on the face (10.5 lofted head) than where VCOG is in address position, or with a neutral angle of attack. This illustration is suppose to give your the measurement of that yellow triangle we see above for a head that has a RCOG of 35 mm.
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/D16EPK48RAH6/image.png[/img]

COGs location on the club face MOVES, depending on AOA and face angle. This is why we players with a positive AOA and a LOW impact on the face will scratch their heads, their spin values goes NUTs, and thats because COG moves higher on the face with a positive AOA, so the area below the line COG travels on becomes larger.
If we locate VCOG and RCOG we can draw this triangle, and add in, the different AOAs to see what impact position that will have COG directly behind the ball, and when the ball is below or above COG, but in general, ANY area on the front of the triangle will be "good impact locations", and thats ALWAYS above the center line of the face.
if we for the sake of example say that RCOG is 35 mm behind the face, (lower case b measurement 35.00) and the player have a positive AOA of plus 5*, then COG travels trough a spot on the face that about 3.06 mm, or lets say 1/8" higher on the face, (lower case a measurement) than it would with a neutral angle of attack, and the same the other way, so a player with a negative AOA of -5* , actually gets 2/8" more "effective face area" where he can cut of spin, than the player with a positive AOA on the same driver. The further back RCOG is, the higher will the front of the triangle be
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/7JLPNQE3JKAJ/image.png[/img]
Thats why i dislike this charts who promote swing changes and positive AOA to cut of spin, they are NOT telling the truth about it, but sure enough, the absolute max carry needs a positive AOA, but the difference to neutral or negative is NOT like this charts gives the impression of. Its gone 9 years now since i proven that we can get over and beyond Trackmans optimum numbers for AOA +5 with a neutral angle of attack, ALL due to vertical gear effects and a larger effective face area above VCOG for players with neutral to negative AOA, so its about finding the area of the face where VCOG is located the way YOU swing the club (RCOG and your angle of attack) , and where COR is at the max if we really want to maximize our potential

EDIT - forgot to post this one. Ive set to the head to a 15.5* Dynamic loft (5* added from static), so its easier to draw the lines for AOA where we get to see how FACE AREA above COG gets larger with a negative AOA vs a positive AOA.
Be aware of that we can add dynamic loft, due to shaft bending, but still have a negative AOA, since AOA is the travel direction of COG, and its the travel direction of COG who matters for if we have COG directly behind the ball, or if COG is higher or lower. Thats whats cause "vertical gear effects" (the balls COG below COG in the club head adds spin, and the balls COG above the COG in the club head cuts of spin)
The arrows goes trough the face where COG travels in this 3 examples, so if we have a negative AOA of 5, and make impact where the RED line goes trough the face, we have COG directly behind the ball, and any impact spot higher, will take advantage of vertical gear effects who cuts off spin.
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/PQHMR9C69183/image.png[/img]
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10559963-604824649637671-1741433380258726307-n1.png

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----------------
Golf Jobs
Driver: Titleist TS3 9.5 w/ Tensei Blue 55 S
3W: Titleist 915F 15 w/ Diamana D+ 80 S
3H: Titleist 915H 21 w/ Diamana D+ 90 S
Irons: 4-GW Titleist T100 w/ Project X LZ 6.0
Wedge: Vokey SM8 54.10S TC w/ Project X LZ 6.0

Wedge: Vokey SM8 60.04L TC w/ Project X LZ 6.0
Ball: 2021 Titleist ProV1

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The higher the positive angle of attack, the less loft you need... the less loft you use, the less spin you produce. High launch + low spin = far distance.

Tee it high and give it the ol' Mike Tyson upper cut, and buy a 7.5 or less degree driver so you're launching at 12 degrees with that 5+ aoa, and your spin will be so low... man, you will barely be able to see how far it goes... into the trees.

The quest for distance can make everyone get a little stupid to be honest. Find a healthy balance.

----------------
Golf Jobs
Driver: Titleist TS3 9.5 w/ Tensei Blue 55 S
3W: Titleist 915F 15 w/ Diamana D+ 80 S
3H: Titleist 915H 21 w/ Diamana D+ 90 S
Irons: 4-GW Titleist T100 w/ Project X LZ 6.0
Wedge: Vokey SM8 54.10S TC w/ Project X LZ 6.0

Wedge: Vokey SM8 60.04L TC w/ Project X LZ 6.0
Ball: 2021 Titleist ProV1

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Well... I went from a 10.5 M4 driver to a 9.0 M6 driver. Both using the same Hzrdus smoke black 70 gr in stiff, 45" playing length. I have gained quite a bit of distance off the tee since doing so. Now my bad drives are 230 yds, and my good ones are around 260. With the M4 you thought the ball was going to go by the way it came off the face, but it didn't. Always thought with a 100 mph swing the 10.5 was the way to go... Anyway, I don't think it is quite as simple as swing speed X = Y loft. You got to try different things, hence the getting fit comments. But getting properly fit can be a challenge too.

In the bag

Driver: Taylormade Sim2 Max 9*

4w: Callaway Mavrik Sub Zero

Hybrid:  Apex 19 3h 20*

Hybrid:  Apex 19 4h 23*

Irons: Callaway Apex CF 19 5i-AW

W1: Vokey SM7 54* S

W2: Vokey SM8 60* L

Putter: Swag Handsome Too

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@North Butte
Hey I have some measurements of the M4 Atmos 5R shaft I bought.
It is 43.75" without adapter. 52 grams. It is counter balanced. Shaft midpoint is 21.875, and the BP is 20.6875 from the butt and 23.0625 from the tip. Since some of the heavier butt has been cut off, I think the raw shaft would show a bigger difference.
Torque is 6.5 degrees. That's pretty common in R flex OEM shafts that I test. In a 5" clamp, CPM at the standard 41" beam with a long 205g weight is 241 on the hard side and 235 soft side. There is a fair amount of wobble when not on those planes. Mocked up with a glue in type 200g driver head, at 45.75" and D1 swingweight, the soft side CPM is 252. On the chart I have, that is 6.3 flex, which is quite stiff. My normal M4 driver and shaft also gives very stiff butt CPM results.
I don't have my normal profiling weight but I McGyver'd up something close. The numbers are only applicable to others done by me today. I profiled 3 other shafts just to compare. The numbers are from 41" beam down to 11" beam in 5" increments. So they give an idea of where the stiffness is in the shafts.
Atmos shaft: 171 195 227 278 347 470 726
UST MP5R: 156 180 210 256 324 438 703
Diamana M+ 50R (stock Titleist 915 red label driver shaft)
160 184 219 257 317 431 703
Stealth 70R: 161 193 221 263 333 444 711
Interestingly, this Atmos shaft is stiffer than the other 3, in every section. Maybe there is something we can't see without EI curves. Anyway, the bottom line is: counterbalanced, high torque, and stiffer than we might have guessed.

M4 Driver
4, 7, 9 woods

5, 6 Adams hybrids
7-GW Maltby irons
54 & 58º Wedges
LAB Mezz.1 box stock
 
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Wow, my wife thinks I go a little crazy because I measure the length, weight and grip diameter when I pull a club out of the box!

It doesn't surprise me the Atmos measures somewhat on the stiff side of things. I have a fairly abrupt transition and fast tempo (although I am constantly working on reining it in) and even for my 90mph speed I don't like anything loose feeling.

I took my newly re-purchased M4 out for a few holes last evening. Didn't exactly stripe it down the middle every time but it was pretty consistent in the middle to left side of the fairway. From about the second swing it felt more familiar to me than the Rogue I'd used for the previous 20-30 rounds.

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I have a new one for all. So for a while i played 10.5... the 9.0.. which was better but this season i dropped to 8.0... yeah... real good. I like to be at a neutral angle of attack 0... but if im a tad up or down im ok with that as im not a pro damnnit!!!... but man... the difference in the way the ball feels smashing into a less lofted driver is amazing. Talk about smash factor. You can litteraly feel the ball being smashed into the face rather then a collection and push off the face with 10.5 degrees. 9 degrees is ok too but 8 is where its at for me.

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The winner IS..4 me

Ping Rapture v1 10.5

at 45..stock shaft.. hit go.Good impact in the Hi Centre to Toe Area?

I20 10.5 as backup...

Last week first hit this club dead centre into the wind .2006 tech is good enough if impact is fine smash is good and yes 94mph Couch Potatoe like Others Here..i understand the Impact Importance

PLEASE read Howards

Driver Tips Post

ps have a beer..get an easier swing...better impact..thats the Anser

2020 18 July mid winterNZ
Ping Rapture 2006 10.5
Nike VrS 3wood
Callaway Razr Edge5 wood

MP100=33 9876 5/mp63
54     RTX2
60     RTX2
ProPlatinum NewportTwo
2002 325gram +8.NewGrip
Dont hesitate to buy one!






 

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