HC’s, tees, and competition!

[rxk9fan]

I played in a weekend long, 5 match tournament this weekend. It was handicapped and then depending on age you could choose different tees. That choice figured in to the percent of HC you were awarded.

It was not the young guns sporting the low HC’s and hitting 300 plus drives every hole that contended. Instead it was the 20 HC’s who played as far up as possible and shot 41 who were finishing at the top.

I guess while the HC system and the multiple tees are intended to allow for a more even playing field, IMO too often it allows for the bad side of human nature to show itself and that punishes the better golfers.

At almost 62 years of age I don’t have the skill or distance to compete against the young skilled golfers. Having said that, my 3 best matches of 38, 37, and 37 gross come closer to being in contention against them than when the 20HC guy shoots 41. With that, I would much rather lose to the guy that shoots 2 under straight up than the guy who shoots 5 under getting 10 strokes.

Does anyone else ever consider that our HC system and multiple tees reward sandbagging and disadvantage the really good players?

I truly felt bad for the very nice young man who played one match with me and he carried a 1.4. He was an excellent player, super nice, and got hammered by the traveling 14 to 22 HC’s all weekend long. One of the best golfers out of the 90 there and he lost every match.

[ThinkingPlus]

How were HCs determined? Since it was match play I think everyone should receive full handicap regardless of tees used if the handicaps were computed correctly.

[rxk9fan]

HC were verified GHIN as of a certain date prior to the tournament. The most you could get was 90% of your GHIN. Then depending on tees/slope your strokes were adjusted. Slope varies from 130 to 122 between white and gold tees.

[cadoipi]

Does anyone else ever consider that our HC system and multiple tees reward sandbagging and disadvantage the really good players?Of course the HC system rewards sandbagging, but that is well known.

As for multiple tees, the HC system takes into account the change in difficulty between tees. However the change in difficulty between tees is not uniform between players and depends on their strengths/weaknesses. For example take two players with the same handicap index, player A with distance (280 off the tee) but a weak short game and player B who lacks distance (220 off the tee) but has a strong short game. On a course with many hazards around the greens, Player A would be favored if they both play from the tips with 430+ yard par 4s, while player B would be favored if they both played from forward tees with ~300 yard par 4s. In a competition where you can pick which tees you play from, you should pick tees that match your strengths.

For a single round of stroke play with a large field, the top spots favor high handicaps since a 18 cap shooting 85 for a net -5 is more likely than a 1 cap shooting 68 for a net -5. For match play, I imagine the largest advantage comes down to how much blow up holes account for ones handicap. For.example (all else being equal) I imagine a 6 hcp who averages 1~2 OB tee shots each round has an advantage in match play over an 18 hcp who never takes a penalty stroke but has a weak short game.

[smashdn]

I'm a 14 and play from the back. My issue is accuracy not distance. You let me move up a box or two I am going to hit 3 irons off the tee past most people. I can play that way, irons off tees and hit all fairways but it is not fun for me personally. Also, not really in line with the Strokes Gained theory. I lose strokes by getting blocked out by trees or hitting into OB or duffing a drive.

I also play most rounds with persimmon and blades and those count right alongside the rare times I play a full round with modern clubs. I am not sure how you keep the handicaps separated depending upon the equipment. I intentionally challenge myself when I am out playing for fun because that is fun for me.

[smashdn]

Somehow double posted. Please delete.

[davep043]

A few questions. What is the difference in CR between the various tees? Were the Course Handicaps adjusted for the (CR-Par) for the different tees? That's the way its supposed to be done under the WHS, but some people are still not doing this correctly, and that can upset the balance in the system. Were the scores posted by the Committee running the tournament? If they weren't, they're feeding the sandbagging problem. A 20 (getting 10 on a side) can shoot 41 occasionally, but its pretty damn rare. Of course, the 2 that you played with can shoot 34 sometimes too. Each of those is likely to win a match.
I don't believe that the system or the use of various tees rewards sandbagging. Sandbagging is cheating, plain and simple, its not the system giving someone an advantage, its someone abusing the system to get an unfair advantage. Different tees can effect different players differently, so someone CAN can an edge by playing the tees that best suit his game. But that's on the organizers to control, maybe its more fair to set up different divisions, each playing from a single tee.
Generally speaking, lower handicap players have an advantage in single match play. Their average (net) score will be lower than a high-handicappers average net score. But a good player playing so-so golf (for him) won't beat a high handicapper playing pretty good. A 2 handicap doesn't deserve to win if he shoots 78, for instance, that's a poor round. He's going to resent being beaten by a 20 handicapper shooting 92, but the 20 deserves to win in that case.
But the real issue in your case is in the last paragraph:
"got hammered by the traveling 14 to 22 HC’s"
Yeah, someone from out of town, nobody knows his history, nobody can vouch for his handicap. The true issue with the USGA system is the lack of oversight by a Handicap Committee for many players, and the freedom it gives to handicap cheaters. @cadoipi says:
"For a single round of stroke play with a large field, the top spots favor high handicaps since a 18 cap shooting 85 for a net -5 is more likely than a 1 cap shooting 68 for a net -5."
There are also a whole lot more 18's than 1's, typically, so of course there's a higher probability of an 18 winning. Take a single 18 and a single 1, and the 1 will win more than the 18. The 18 is more likely to shoot -5 net than the 1, but he's also a lot more likely to shoot +10 net than the 1.

[cadoipi]

@davep043
I agree with everything you say. A key point in what I said was "a large field" since for instance in a field 100 split evenly between 1 caps and 18 caps, the winner is more likely to be an 18 cap than a 1 cap.

[TerpFangolfer]

As a low cap most of my playing career, I quickly found a solution to this issue - I basically play only gross events. Because yes, it is enormously frustrating to go into a comp knowing you have no chance.

The club i first belonged to back in the 90s had a bunch of good players, so no shortage of good club competition. Plus A team played at gross, and state/regional comps. I did play in the member guest every year. Invited mid-cap friends, but just looked at it as "fun" only...closest we ever got was 3rd in our flight.

Lucky there were enough events of various kinds around. Now older (55+) so eligible for local/state/regional Sr. Am events.