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misery loves company! great OP and (a lot of) great replies in here. I wonder if the 'you probably should quit' posts are actually an attempt at reverse psychology?

anyways ME TOO and for the very same reason.

way more often than I'd like I just can't get off the tee successfully and on those days (again, too many) it's NO FUN.

what I'm trying:

figure out more quickly that it's not a driver day and put it away. just play irons. shoot bogey golf and enjoy it.find a safe driver feel that will get me in play. I've been at it for several years, now, and still no dice.That crap shoot feeling on the tee is the worst. No fun. Totally discouraging.

Appreciate the OP!


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Bruh.... get out of your own head, stop getting lessons, stop thinking, stop worrying about positions, just be an athlete and dig it out of the dirt. Start small with your wedges and partial iron swin

Things have gotten rather bleak this season (no guff, Chet!) and I'm considering quitting golf altogether. I don't know how to enjoy the game anymore. I'm turning to you guys for guidance, and wonderi

Lots of folks suggested just swinging my swing, relaxing, being less analytical. I played this morning, and that philosophy worked pretty well. Moved up another set of tee boxes, shot an 88. Would hav

To my eye, one of the issues is the lack of a hip turn. Swing comes too much from the arms and the back swing / Sticking to plane seems too forced.


my swing thought is to initiate the Downswing by rotating the hips (not push forward, rotate) and “take the arms for a trip”. Training with the orange whip helped me with that.

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"I'm athletic and strong but I drive the ball 210-235"

See that's the great thing about golf (at least for guys like me). I'm 5'7" tall, 155 lbs, and I can drive the ball 280.

Last weekend we had my nephew's stag party and there were about 24 guys standing around the first tee as I teed off. First hole was a 320 yard par 4. I absolutely pured it down the middle of the fairway. When I got to my ball SkyCaddie said I had 42 yards left to the middle of green. It was such a rush to listen to my in-laws and other friends go "woahhhh" because 20+ years ago, these were some of the guys who first taught me the game, and I could barely break 100.

My point? I know plenty of big, athletic guys who should be able to rip the ball a lot farther than I can. But I think because I am more flexible than they are, and I can put a good smooth-tempo swing on the ball, I can out-drive them. In my opinion flexibility is just as important, if not slightly more important than brawn in golf. Adding a good stretching routine for your back, shoulders, and hips is key.

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Okay, you have some work to do with that swing for sure, but it's not bad at all. It's not particularly pretty mind you. You're breaking some laws for sure. But it's not horrific.
The first thing I see is that back leg straightening. There's no need for that and it's hurting you here. In principle, you need to limit what you do with the lower body during the back-swing so that it can open sufficiently on the through-swing. The reason you aren't getting your hips open enough at impact is that you've turned them so far back on the back-swing they're basically stuck back there. You've basically killed yourself with that unnecessarily large back-swing.
Broadly-speaking, your motion is a little too dramatic and inside. Look at your hands for instance. You're sucking those inside a bit as you start the back-swing. Essentially you're turning too much on the back-swing which kills any chance you have of making an effective down-swing.
It's all sort of one problem which should make it easy to fix. The face-on view really tells the story. You're flirting with a reverse pivot. Look at how angled that rear leg is as you make your back-swing. And then because you can't get through the ball you flip, stall and fall back. Your problem is all weight shift honestly. Like I said, get with a proper instructor and he'll sort you out relatively quickly.
Monte would probably be great for you.

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Good analisys.

I don't agree about the hips on the backswing: he could open hips that much (as they teach now to gain distance) but I agree that the right knee straightens too much and he maybe loses stability and controlò.

I also agree that his problem is the weight shift, and this is because the swing comes more from the upper body/arms/hands rather then from the body/hips and weight shift.

He has a good position of the club in the take away.

He's in that position that, if the "body swing" concept clicks in his mind, could be a really good ball hitter.


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@elpollosuperloco Thank you for posting those swing videos. First off, I honestly think that you should be scoring lower. Given this new information (the swing clips), I'd gamble that it's your mind that's holding you back on the course. It's not your physical limitations or not hitting far enough or any of that bull. It's definitely all about what happens mentally when you get on the course because you clearly - as many of us do - have such significant expectations built up. Be confident in your ability.
I do agree with some others on this thread that your swing isn't perfect, but whose is? The only thing I'm noticing (and I have a very rudimentary understanding of the swing) is that your transition from backswing to downswing seems too quick. If you slowed down and allowed your power to collect at the top, then gravity would take care of initiating a powerful downswing for you. Some people try to consciously feel their lead hip "bump" toward the target to initiate the downswing. In other words: tempo.
Related: I've been feeling super bummed about my game, but I looked into my stats via The Grint and realized that it's really just been my putting that's been making my scores worse than I expect. So, I focused on making more conservative lag putts today and shot 10 strokes lower than my last round. Golf is certainly not linear, but you can play smarter. I'm only including this anecdote to say this: focus on the things that you can change on the course and be patient. Better scores will come.
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Well, his lower body action looks very similar to mine when I started playing. I would call it ugly and over-active. For me, I found that it came from a misunderstanding of the swing. I got a lot better when I stopped moving my left knee as much and stopped over-rotating on the back-swing. And yeah, the super-straight right leg is just horrid.

In regards to the hips I was just relaying to him what I'd tell myself. When I start making a big turn with the hips I start seeing my lower body get overly active. This leads to more erratic, timing-based swings where everything starts by first coming inside and then by returning back to the ball too much from the inside. I start hitting big draws the trajectory of which get lower and lower the worse it gets.

I think his big problem is that he imagines the swing as being more rotational than it really is. Hence he starts with a big back-swing during which he's sucking his right hip back and getting those hands too far inside almost immediately. Then of course his arms have nowhere to go up up and around which gets him upright and across the line. All this culminates in a stall-out of the hips on the down-swing as seen by the thrusting of the hips outward as he approaches impact. This is the price you pay for a big hip turn on the way back. That's all I'm saying here.

Look at Tiger during the Butch-era...you really don't need that much hip turn at all to generate massive power.

IMHO, he probably thinks "turn" n the back-swing or just views the swing as a purely rotational thing (which it isn't) and so he should really attempt to counter that. He needs to feel like his hips aren't even turning on the back-swing. That'd be my coaching point.

If he kept his hips from over-rotating on the back-swing he'd be able to easily shift through the transition and get them nicely opened almost instantly as he started the down-swing.


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I’m no instructor. The first thing I noticed is your iron swing is much better as another poster said. With the irons, you set your hands about 3:00. With the driver, I never frankly thought your hands “set” until the very top of the backswing as you dropped into the slot.

It also appeared that in your backswing your upper body moves toward the target and your hips move away from it. It seems to me that the hips would naturally move in the direction of the target as a product of the turn, but the shoulders and head would remain at or behind the ball.


just my .02


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I think finding an instructor who will work with your swing is huge. I got a 5 pack or something of lessons, and did the first one in May. The guy tried to change my swing completely. I couldn't have played all summer and tried to change it. I would have reverted back to old habits and lost all traction from the lessons. So what did I do? Played all summer without another lesson. In the winter I went back, overhauled my swing and am better for it. I didn't do a full swing for like 4 month, until it just clicked in a full swing. Anyway, my point is you need to figure out what you want to do. Improve YOUR swing or get a new one.


My father tried to get a new swing this winter/spring and made some good strides until the weather was nice enough to go play. Then he played, didnt like the results and is now worse off than he was last year.

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If learning golf has you that negative or down, nothing I can say can change that. All the challenges of golf are just that for me, kinda like the battle of Heartbreak Ridge (Korean War), had to be conquered. I am a lifelong amateur athlete too, that also has done painful damage to my body during various adventures, yet I smile and still persevere at golf as others grumble about struggles. Your rant rings as if you wrote your own eulogy and ordered a headstone.
On a similar note a friend of mine focuses on the negative or obstacles too. He wallows in it and we tease him about it. He wants what he can't have, skill similar to a few friends but without dedicated time and practice, so he has all but quit. Every conceivable snag combined into a mountain too big for him to climb. His friends don't bother to change his mind mostly because golf has a way to testing our resolve, over and over. If he doesn't have the commitment in the early learning stages he's not going to have it later on when it's much harder.
@Jaoffo analogy fits - golf is like a "Bat S**t Crazy girlfriend." She's going to test your character, self-control and ability to remain calm during the ride when the sh** hits her fan.

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Thanks, I think the pragmatism thing is a big thing for me, too. I think I can reliably just poke a ball out there, which might be how I take it from here on out. I mentioned it in another response, but I've really only had two coaches. I've had eight in total, but those guys were just like single sessions bought for me as a christmas gift and stuff. I've tried to stay stable.

I do have friends who play, the best of our group is a single digit.

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Hey man thanks for such a long note. I read through your post history too and it feels like, along with you, there's a lot of folks in here who have experienced this same frustration so at least it's not so isolating.

That putting gauge thing I'm definitely going to try out, that's very much up my alley in that you can sort of find a mathematical way to control putting distance (of course the caveat is you have to be very consistent with putter head speed for this to work but hey who isn't amirite?)

I definitely can relate. I also get good feedback on my swing aesthetically (although I think it looks horrible) and lots of comments like "how are you a 21 with this swing? You must suck at something else" but my Arccos data doesn't lie -- I can't keep a driver on the damn course. My I put to an 11.0 handicap according to Arccos, and it's the only thing saving my rounds. My driver swing looks repeatable enough, but the answer is I get so wiggly and it's not consistent so it sprays everywhere. Like, check out my Arccos driving dispersion. Could not be less reliable if I tried:

fullsizerender.jpegAnd you hit it on the head about playing in the 80s or low 90s vs above that -- anything else feels like defense. Why would you put yourself through that on purpose for 5 hours? Stinks. Anyway, good looking out. I'm going to be more zen about it moving forward.

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This is pretty interesting, actually.

My last coach had me working on dropping the club at the top because I came to him with an over the top move. We worked on hip turn and swinging in-to-out.

My current coach is having me work on the damage too much inside-out thinking has brought me. I usually get to the top with a closed clubface, moreso with longer clubs. I also drop the hands quite a bit to get them inside-out. Naturally, now that I know this I'm trying my damndest to NOT drop the hands at all at the top. When I think I don't drop my hands at all I go back and watch the video, and I am still doing it. We also worked a little on pressure, he noticed I put a lot of my weight on my lead foot in the takeaway so we've been doing a drill to be more balanced.

I feel like I've stalled out with my current coach because we are just drilling the same thing over and over again and I'm not seeing any improvement.

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I quit for like 10 years, it's okay to do.

Swing is not terrible. Issue is between knees and shoulders. After transition, Pro's crunch angles, Joe's lose them. In a nutshell, you do that in spades. Try swinging with solitary intent of getting chest to point down at the ball and in fast fashion. You go for that, your hips and legs will be forced to change for the better. It's not an easy adjustment. In any case, 2nd the Monte Rx.

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@MelloYello wow ok I had never realized I wasn't supposed to basically straighten my back leg like that. Jeez. One trip to youtube looking at a good swing from Tiger and... yeah there's no straight leg. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jlp8G9paliw Guess I need to work on this somehow.
Sort of a side a question that I don't want to sound like it's blame-shifting or anything, but how could a pro instructor not notice this right away? I moved instructors and the new one was like "You know you are closed at the top and you drop your hands like 8 inches down in transition every time, right?" and I didn't. And it really made me question how my prior coach didn't notice or care about that. And of course now I'm wondering why my current coach doesn't think this extended leg and weird pressure shift I'm doing isn't worth mentioning. Especially since I've been explicit in wanting a roadmap in our instruction, telling him it's OK to tell me everything we're going to work on and that I won't get overwhelmed.
This is half-related to @Hawkeye and you suggesting Monte: how in-depth was that feedback? I've found that sending video back-and-forth between coaches hasn't been hugely beneficial to me. I even did a video feedback lesson with a famous instructor who shall not be named (think: getting external) and I wasn't really much better for it. I see Monte is only $75 for one lesson, which isn't too much to at least try out but more feedback on that would definitely be great.
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Lots of folks suggested just swinging my swing, relaxing, being less analytical. I played this morning, and that philosophy worked pretty well. Moved up another set of tee boxes, shot an 88. Would have been an 85-86 save for some absolute peaches of hits just barely catching some trees on #9, resulting in writing down 9. According to Arccos, this was the best driving handicap I've ever had, down four strokes. I also hit the most fairways (6/15) and tied my mark for most pars (7). Overall a very fun day out there, no matter the result.

I wanted to clarify that I've never been afraid of my driver or timid. Instead what I've been is frustrated with it. I would have the same swing feel on the range all month and drive it great, then on the box it would be a total crapshoot. I'd think "but this SHOULD work" and then I'd step up and do it again. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. I wouldn't qualify what I have off the tee as the yips, at least not traditionally, because I'm not timid or afraid. In fact, the worse I hit the more determined I get.

So I still stepped up to the tee box today with the driver, and you know what? I just sort of looked at my target and tried to make the ball go thatta way. Nothing fancy, no swing thought, no structure thoughts other than "hit 'em straight". It sort of worked, and it naturally led to a smoother swing. That smoother swing, for me, meant less distance so even when I did mess up the punishment wasn't as severe.

It's a work in progress but some of the advice here has already helped. I'd also just like to say that the internet can be an unforgiving, confusingly cruel place where earnest folks seeking the assistance of their peers can often be met with harshness. The fact that some many people have popped in here and helped, offered advice, and said they have / are experiencing the same damn thing actually feels pretty cool. Appreciate you all

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Really your choice. Its a matter of getting out of golf what you want. This is a game of adjustments. Especially with the driver where timing is everything. If driver is your issue then fix it. If you havent fixed it with 8 instructors, then either they are doing something wrong or you arent changing what you are doing wrong to correct it.

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For anything any pro tells you or anyone here tells you about golf mechanics there is another pro or teacher who will tell you the exact opposite. For instance Brandel Chamblee recommends straightening the trail leg on the backswing with a big hip turn. I am sure that there are plenty of others who teach the same. It does not matter what type of swing mechanics you use somebody will tell you that what you are doing is wrong.

Skill is far more important then technique.

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One of the frustrating things with golf is, many times the results don't match the effort put into it. In any other activity where you put in so much effort, the results are usually very positive. That isn't always the case with golf.

ps: I am not sure taking weekly lessons is helpful. It usually takes more than a week to engrain what you learned in the last lesson, once you come close to doing that, then it may be time for another lesson.

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Lessons and coaching can vary differently as its challenging to describe and teach a golf swing which is often about feels and muscle movement. Its like any sport where some people get it and others dont - for those of us that dont get it straight away it can be a lifelong, but rewarding, challenge.

I have been to teachers who wanted to pull my seing apart and start form scratch and I have been to teachers who work with what youve got and incrementally change it - no one is correct and no one is wrong - its what works for you.

I had a lesson yesterday with a different coach and he succeeded in getting me to start getting a deeper hip turn - same concepts as other coaches but the method he used and the way we worked on it just clicked more than before. Coaching is teaching - and teaching is a skill.

Weekly lessons are a waste of money unless you practice every day and are a blank canvass - 3 or 4 weeks between lessons means you can work on the range and get a few rounds in - no point in having a 'range game' that does not translate to the course - and you will have some horrendous rounds in there as you develop - but if its a bounce game it doesnt matter - if its counting towards your index the worst that can happen is a 0.1 increase.

Dont quit - enjoy the experience of being out in lovely scenery and think of the shots that make you want to play again.

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Okay I've read only page one, but from the OP, it is obvious he is beating himself up as a multisport athlete and thinks the game should be easy and shotting in the 70's.

Too much thin king, too much practice, too many videos and instruction.

Stop worrying about your scores and just play good holes. Take a mulligan and re-tee the ball. When in the bush, put it in a decent postion and see if you can get it out.

Play shots from the fairway and only care about the good holes, good recoveries and who cares about the blow-up holes.

Too many people (especially here) are just too engrossed in their scores, HC's and matches/events. You are playing 18 individual holes and approach each as your first, not screwed up in your head about the last bad one.

And I'm playing like crap, but it will turn around.

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Here is an excellent, short blog post for any of us. Dear Younger Me by Fred Shoemaker, the author of Extraordinary Golf:https://extraordinarygolf.com/dear-younger-me/

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Heres my story:

2008 or so I picked up the game on a whim when my golf playing Brother came to town. I'm a life long baseball player so should be easy right? Just rip at the ball right? Wrong. So so wrong. But that's exactly what got me hooked. I now had something foreign that I needed to conquer. That's exactly what I set out to do.

So after that fateful round, I found myself in a 2nd hand store perusing the golf clubs. Range the next day. What a disaster! Rinse and repeat but I was getting better. Finally hit a few different coaching spots, some DVD's here, Youtube videos there and one day it clicked. I broke 100!... then soon after broke 90!...then 80!

But that was the problem. I broke 80. Then I did it again!...and again!... but then I DIDNT. ...then I shot 90! WTF happened?! I'd better go hit 3 buckets every day til I figure it out right? Better spend a few hours chipping and putting right? Better find a new coach! Better stop taking overtime at work and spend it at the range instead.

Phew, broke 80 again.

Then I didnt!

Enter 2013. I quit. Just flat out quit. Went from playing 2-3x a week and spending around 12 hours a week at the practice range to just throwing the clubs in the closet and that was it. DONE.

I learned in that time that this game isn't physical at alllll. It's mental. You CAN play an enjoyable round from the trees and you CAN play an unenjoyable round from the fairway. I'm not a professional. I'm a weekly warrior and I'm paying to play, not being PAID to play.

I'm back now and golf is MUCH more enjoyable when I just play.

Take the expectations out and just PLAY. After all, you've paid to be there.

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