Nearest Point of relief seems very hard for people to understand. Bizarre interaction

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Right, it’s also difficult to correct someone like him too. These free drops seem to be one of the most contentious and misunderstood rules.

What’s ironic is the acronym tells you what to do, literally.

[2bGood]

You just have to remind yourself half the people in the world are dumber than the average person.

[Nels55]

Yes I understand your point but I see pros getting 'free relief' from bad situations on TV quite often by applying the nearest point of relief rule. The same with ams. It can come down to a matter of which way the ball rolls on a cart path leaving it few inches one way or the other. I know that a lot of folks like the rule that way but I prefer that everyone gets the maximum advantage every time instead of the current rule which is arbitrary and hard to understand. Simplifying this rule would increase pace of play and lower a persons scoring average a very small amount so no harm done and less headaches.

So I disagree with you! LOL I believe that ruling bodies agree with you so my argument is a waste time...

[Nels55]

That is a fair point but I think that a simple reading of this thread might provide evidence that reading this particular rule is still going to be a problem. Also the fact is that most golfers are not going to read the rules anyway regardless of how much we wish that they would.

[SNIPERBBB]

It's not hard to understand if you actually read the rules. This rule coves more than just cart paths. Simpler to cover all these scenarios under one rule than to carve out special procedures for each scenario.

 

It's your job to maximize the advantage based on the rules.

[davep043]

"Yes I understand your point but I see pros getting 'free relief' from bad situations on TV quite often by applying the nearest point of relief rule."

I've also seen pros on TV play from a cart path because their relief option is not particularly desirable.

I don't want everyone to get maximum advantage every time, I don't believe a player affected by an obstruction should automatically have an advantage (that of multiple choices) as compared to the guy 3 feet away who's not impacted by the obstruction, and so has no choice.

I don't find the current rule arbitrary or hard to understand, it seems quite logical. If you're impacted by an obstruction, move the ball the shortest distance possible to eliminate that interference.

[sui generis]

As in: Nearest - that's an easy conceptPoint - even a child understands this wordComplete - most children get this one, tooRelief - the thing you don't like is no longer in your way

So, what is "arbitrary" or confounding here?

[golfnz34me]

I have a question. What do you do if there is a giant oak tree or one of Tiger Woods' "pebbles" at the nearest point of relief? How do you stick a tee into a boulder? How do you drop the ball inside the trunk of a tree?

[Mr. Bean]

You need to estimate your Relief Area by picturing your Nearest Point of Complete Relief inside the trunk/boulder.

'Nearest Point of Complete Relief/5 – Player Physically Unable to Determine Nearest Point of Complete ReliefIf a player is physically unable to determine his or her nearest point of complete relief, it must be estimated, and the relief area is then based on the estimated point. For example, in taking relief under Rule 16.1, a player is physically unable to determine the nearest point of complete relief because that point is within the trunk of a tree or a boundary fence prevents the player from adopting the required stance .

The player must estimate the nearest point of complete relief and drop a ball in the identified relief area. If it is not physically possible to drop the ball in the identified relief area, the player is not allowed relief under Rule 16.1.'

There is a very illustrative picture in the old Decision 24-2b/3.7 but unfortunately I have no idea how to upload pictures in the posts.

[davep043]

First, do what @Mr. Bean says. Then, if there's no acceptable place to drop the ball within the Relief Area, consider taking unplayable lie relief, or play the ball as it lies. From Interpretation 16.1/1:
"16.1/1 – Relief from Abnormal Course Condition May Result in Better or Worse Conditions
If a player receives a better lie, area of intended swing or line of play in taking relief under Rule 16.1, this is the player’s good fortune. There is nothing in Rule 16.1 that requires him or her to maintain identical conditions after relief is taken.
For example, in taking relief from a sprinkler head (immovable obstruction) in the rough, the player’s nearest point of complete relief or relief area may be located in the fairway. If this results in the player being able to drop a ball in the fairway, this is allowed.In some situations, the conditions may be less advantageous to the player after relief is taken as compared with the conditions before relief is taken, such as when the nearest point of complete relief or relief area is in an area of rocks."

[Newby]

In some situations, the conditions may be less advantageous to the player after relief is taken as compared with the conditions before relief is taken, such as when the nearest point of complete relief or relief area is in an area of rocks.

 

Which is why you should check out the potential relief area before you lift your ball.

[manku]

What if you're like Mac O'Grady and can swing both ways?

Can you take the preferred relief based on being a lefty, and then shoot righty?

I realize it's not in the spirit of golf, btw, to angle shoot like this. And, no, I can't hit lefty...can barely hit it righty.

[LeoLeo99]

I've heard of people carrying an opposite handed club for special situations. DJ doesn't need a left handed club.

[Sawgrass]

First, select the club and shot you’d use if the potentially-interfering IO was not there. If interference in fact exists, make a legal drop near the NPR for that particular shot with that specific club. If you are now free from the original interference, you may plan a different shot with a different club. If that new shot is interfered with by the same or a new IO, start the process again to see if you want relief again.

The only real constraint is assuring the Golf Gods that when you are claiming free relief, it is based on a shot/club you legitimately would make if the obstruction were not present.

[Nels55]

@davep043 says; "I don't find the current rule arbitrary or hard to understand, it seems quite logical. If you're impacted by an obstruction, move the ball the shortest distance possible to eliminate that interference."
This is really the crux of the issue. I don't have any problem understanding and implementing the rule either other then it can take a lot of time on occasion. I also did not have much problem understanding algebra and geometry in school and I scored well on the SATs. A lot of people of who golf are not so blessed and this rule is simply too difficult for them to grasp. So at no cost to anyone the rule could be written in such a way that the average person would act within the rule the vast majority of the time by doing what seems logical to them even though the might not understand why. Most of the time such people might penalize themselves by taking a club length instead of taking stance and a club length. No big deal compared to dropping in the fairway instead of dropping in rough which is what happens quite often with the current rule.

[Mr. Bean]

' I don't have any problem understanding and implementing the rule either other than it can take a lot of time on occasion.'

Yes, it can, but only in cases people do not know and understand the procedure.

It is a very simple procedure and easy to put into practice. One just have to learn it. Somehow I get the feeling that there are people who are not even willing to try...

[Shilgy]

My experience has been that most regular players do know the rule-they just don’t like it. They know it’s “nearest point of relief” but move further if that point is not favorable. That you cannot fix with a rule change.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Agree, it’s too simple to not know what is appropriate?

Often, I just tell them to take a one stroke drop per the new rules to quicken play, if they think it will take more time and strokes.

[Mr. Bean]

'My experience has been that most regular players do know the rule-they just don’t like it.'

My experience is that most regular players do NOT know the Rule, and if they knew they would not like it.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Haha, maybe?

[Newby]

I find they simply move it towards or on to the fairway.

[Nels55]

Quote; "Yes, it can, but only in cases people do not know and understand the procedure."

No. I have seen instances where tour officials and players who do know the rule very well take forever to find a relief point from some obstruction.

For a cart path I can do it fairly quickly but it would be faster to simply pick the side that I want and then take relief. There are times where it is very close to determine which side is the nearest point of relief and it takes time to mark both spots and then measure. I am sometimes in situations in tournaments where the group I am in is playing rather slowly and I am trying to keep the pace up and it is a bit annoying to go through the procedure. Of course as you mention it is much worse when I have to walk over and argue with someone about how to proceed.

As the rule is constructed it is the person who knows the rule who is often losing out for knowing it. LOL I am all for having rules that most people cannot grasp as long as they help someone who does grasp the rule! Not the case with nearest point of relief rule.

[Nels55]

My proposed rule change would fix this particular problem. It would not fix others though and there is nothing much that can be done about folks who cheat other then to call them on it.

It is not my experience that most regular players know the rule. I played in a tournament the other day with a 6 handicap guy who had no clue how to take relief. I am certain that he was being honest about it. I think that he plays with a lot of guys who just play and have become proficient but have never read a rule book. Or maybe if they did read it but they simply did not understand it...

[sui generis]

Your proposed Rule is: "Drop in the nearest nice place?"

Which is, as we all agree, what most people do and those with whom they're golfing don't know any better and don't care.

[Greenie]

I wish I could show an old friend this thread.

Back in the days when we played together this exact situation came up with me. The closest point of relief ended up on the left side of the cart path for me even though my ball was on the right side of the cart path. He said my drop was on the right side and insisted I dropped wrong because it took a tree branch out of play. I took my drop as I thought was legal and made a nice shot to the green. I ended up with birdie on the hole which made the whole thing worse in his mind. He called me a cheater and this went on for multiple rounds even though I showed him a diagram and explained I thought i had did things right. I think the tree limb really made the whole episode worse.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

You might find your exact case in “decisions”?

Sounds fairly common?

[nsxguy]

You tell them to take a "one stroke drop per the new rules" ?!?!?! A penalty stroke ? What new rules are these ?

Remind me never to play with you,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, LMAO

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Oops, ... I’d think you’d want to play WITH me, just not against Hahaha.

[Mr. Bean]

'No. I have seen instances where tour officials and players who do know the rule very well take forever to find a relief point from some obstruction.'

I am sure you have. Then again, I have once seen the Aurora Borealis in the southern coast of Finland. Beautiful. It was 43 years ago or something like that. On this latitude they are seen extremely seldom.

My point was that the Rule and the procedure is so simple that for a person mastering them it takes very little time to choose the right spot. On occasion the exact spot is so crucial that it may require accurate measuring, several stances taken and various drops. Despite of those rather exceptional situations occurring only in high level competitions I keep my view: that Rule is simple and easy to implement and needs not to be changed.

[TerpFangolfer]

Exactly, glad that situation was over my ball.

If it had been me telling him he couldn't drop in the grass I'm sure the interaction would have been different.