Cup foam and flag sticks costing me a lot of birdies? Or just friends being unfair?

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

Ever since these foam pieces placed inside the cup and no touching the flag sticks. I feel like I have been robbed of so many birdies and even some eagle chances. This goes for league play also. Is it possible that my friends or people I’m grouped up with are very unfair or rules are rules type situation? I get it, the ball has to be holed out in order for it to count. But given the circumstances. That isn’t the case anymore. Especially during this time. There has been so many times by ball clearly would have stayed in the hole if it wasn’t for the foam inside the cup or even the flag stick leaning one way or the other that can cause your ball to ricochet off of it. I get that if it’s a blazing fast putt towards the cup. And it goes in then bounces out. It’s something that needs to be discussed. But if it’s a perfect speed and roll towards the cup and it still bounces out or ricochets off the flag stick that could have easily gone in. What’s the real call? I know I can’t go back. What’s done is done. But for the future references. What is the real call?

[4x4GGG]

Are your competitors playing the same situations?

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

Competitors as my weekend friends? Yes they do. They feel like it’s only fair and play by the actual rules. And not modify rules cause of the foam and flag stick being left in. But when it comes to league. It depends who I get paired with. It’s been random. Some give me the putt. While others don’t.

[Augster]

The least amount of arguments is ball stays in the cup. This is the most fair way.

If you are playing against opponents that only affect your own group, then I could see going to a “best guess” whether it was in or not. But the opponents have to agree or it isn’t holed.

But if there are multiple groups involved, keeping it in the cup is the most fair.

I’m so happy my course has gone back to real golf where we can pull the pins. The entire “touchless” premise was preposterous from the beginning. And, like you, it’s so nice to be able to make putts again instead of watching them carom off the stick, or the foam.

[4x4GGG]

My point, in a round about way, was that you are all playing the same course at the same time. So I wouldn't deem something as unfair against you if your partners are playing the same situation. The only argument I see is that foam isn't a universal solution so while my handicap may be based off foam, some one else may have a handicap based on a raised cup while another may have a handicap based on a flipped cup. But if you're playing in the same 4 some, then you all have the same problem.

Personally, playing at least once if not twice a week, I can count on 1 hand the number of times we questioned a ball drop. I had 1, a bunker shot, where the ball would have stayed down without the foam.

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

So it’s only fair that I play ball stays in the cup. If anything I’m the unfair one trying to fight it. While they play by the rules.

[dcfas]

I would say it depends. My league course initially had foam around the stick. The ball couldn’t drop at all, so anything that even grazed the foam was called good. Now the foam is gone but the sticks stay in, no option. Before, with the option to take the stick out, there was no question. If you opted to leave the stick in and it didn’t drop that’s the way it goes. Now it’s a bummer if it doesn’t drop, but it’s no good.

The thing is, everyone has to deal with it. The playing field is level.

[HatsForBats]

From the USGA:3. My ball went into the hole, but due to the foam insert, it bounced out. How do I record my score for handicap purposes?
Although your ball has not been holed and you have yet to complete the hole, if you determine that, in your best judgment, your ball would have been holed more than 50% of the time had there not been a foam (or other material) insert, you must record your score for handicap purposes as if the ball was holed. 
When making this decision, you should consider the speed at which your ball was traveling when it first entered the hole.Note: Improper application of most likely score may result in lower scores. It is important for players to apply the procedure consistently and accurately to protect the integrity of their Handicap Index.
https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rulesarticles/covid-19-rules-and-handicapping-faqs.html

[Bob Cat]

OP, is the top of the foam at the same elevation as the putting surface? It shouldn't be.
Also, if I'm in a money game, and the pin is leaning towards me, the pin comes out using my gloved hand.

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

It is not the same elevation. But on some Of the holes at multiple courses I play at. You can see parts of the foam depending on the angle.

[TourSpoon]

This happened to me in a 16 player group that plays down and holes out everything but they employ covid rules. I knew about unmaintained bunkers without rakes, but I lagged one up the other day and it taps the leaning pin just right (or wrong) and it bumps out to 2 inches. My partner says its a birdie and I said, well it would have been if I was able to have someone tend the pin or keep it from leaning but its a par. The group voted that it would have gone in sans pin/foam covid whatever and they recorded a 3. I had no idea about the USGA opinion but those guys were quick to pull it out.
I certainly hope that we get past all this nonsense so we can have raked bunkers and normal pins again.

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

Fully agree, nothing like an awkward round after arguing whether it was a birdie or par.

[North Butte]

When they first stuck the foam in our cups, my group tried for a few weeks having a rule "if it touches the foam then it counts as holed". We finally abandoned the rule because it's just too hard to determine. We're back to playing normal rules, if the ball goes halfway in the cup and back out then it is not holed.
It helps that the superintendent went back at some point and cut the foam down. It now sits nearly a ball-width below ground level so a putt that would stay in without the foam is usually going to stay in with the foam.
I still for the life of me can't see what any of this does w.r.t. someone catching a virus but I suspect we're stuck with all these measures for years if not longer so we might as well just accept it and not try to make up special rules.

[MtlJeff]

It's hard to judge these because so many courses use different methods during covid. Our course doesn't use foam but has these raised cup inserts, i don't find it affects play at all, i haven't had one ball bounce out that i thought should have stayed in.

 

But some courses use foam or other methods, and how high they are riding up on the hole also differs

 

it would really suck to play at a place where balls were just bouncing out of the hole. We might have to come up with some local rules for that

[LeoLeo99]

My local courses have removed the inserts we even remove the flagsticks on occasion.  Usually it's the guy that removes the stick has to put it back in.  

[denkea]

If you don't like the flagstick in just take it out.  I would have a hard time believing that any course has a mandatory declaration of NOT touching the flagstick. Even if they did, who would be noticing?  

[SNIPERBBB]

Our course started with you had to wear gloves to touch the flagstick. That's been pulled down a long time ago.

[sui generis]

56 minutes ago, denkea said:

If you don't like the flagstick in just take it out.  I would have a hard time believing that any course has a mandatory declaration of NOT touching the flagstick. Even if they did, who would be noticing?  

 

This Temporary Local Rule at my place has been in effect since mid-March and it's not going away anytime soon:

 

5) FLAGSTICKS ARE TO BE LEFT IN AT ALL TIMES - Breach of this Rule results in a one-stroke penalty. 

[Newby]

FLAGSTICK

The flagstick serves an important purpose in the game of golf – an indicator to a player as to where the hole is located on the putting green or a target for shots.

While the options for recreational play and competition are the same, some are more likely than others to alter how the game is normally played (such as removing all flagsticks from the course) while others are resource-intensive (such as having staff, a forecaddie or a volunteer stationed at each putting green and attending for all players over a day of recreational golf or during a competition).

• In recreational play, a committee may wish to introduce temporary guidelines that are not normally considered, including:
  • In deciding to set-up a golf course without flagsticks, consideration should be given as to how best to support golfers by providing players the location of each hole on the green, whether this is general guidance (such as in the right front portion) or through a detailed hole-location sheet.
  • As another means of minimizing exposure to players, a committee might decide to introduce a Code of Conduct that prohibits players from touching or removing the flagstick. As is authorized under Rule 1.2b, such a Code could also include penalties (such as one penalty stroke or the general penalty) if a player is in breach of its standards.
    • Before a committee decides to introduce such a restriction, it is recommended that consideration be given to the fact that removing the flagstick is an instinctual, even automated, act for many players. Drafting such a Code of Conduct to restrict only deliberate acts to affect the outcome of the hole would be reflective of that reality and would mean that a player who instinctually removes the flagstick would not get a penalty in doing so.
• During a competition, giving players the option to leave the flagstick in the hole or have it attended and removed are parts of the game. It should be noted that requiring one action or the other may advantage one player by fitting his or her normal routine while disadvantaging another who is forced to alter his or her habits. While the below options require additional  resources, they preserve this part of the game while also seeking minimizing the risk of exposure.
• If a committee wishes for the flagstick Rule to operate as normal, the following alternatives could be considered. In all such cases, the committee should provide liquid sanitizer or cleansing wipes and a waste receptacle near each putting green to assist players and caddies in carrying out these actions, in accordance with both the Back2Golf playbook and state/local guidelines.
  • One player or caddie in each group should be responsible for holding, attending, removing, and/or replacing the flagstick on each hole as they move through the round.
  • Allow any player or caddie to handle the flagstick but anyone who does touch the flagstick must wipe it down prior to and after such removal, or alternatively, have players sanitize their hands after touching a bunker rake and before touching anything else (such as their golf club, bag or face).
  • Identify an individual who is dedicated to handling flagstick removal, attendance, and replacement on each putting green (this could be course or competition staff, a forecaddie or a volunteer). That identified individual would be the only person who should touch the flagstick at the request of every player in the competition. This could be drafted as a guideline only or it could be included in a Code of Conduct that could also include penalties for any breach (such as one penalty stroke or the general penalty).
• If a committee takes any of the above actions, it is at the discretion of the committee whether scores would be acceptable for handicap purposes.

Special case for modified flagsticks

• A committee may temporarily decide to use a flagstick that has added a movable tray, platform or a similar attachment to help prevent touching the surface of the flagstick to retrieve the ball from the hole.
• Such flagsticks with non-constrained attachments such as movable trays, platforms, or similar attachments to aid in removing a ball from the hole, whether the device is incorporated with or added to the flagstick, do not meet the requirements of Part 8, Section 1 of the Equipment Rules.
• However, if a committee decides to use a flagstick that does not meet the Equipment Rules to minimize the possibility of exposing players to coronavirus, a temporary measure is in place to permit scores played under this condition to be acceptable for handicap purposes while such modifications are in use. This measure is in effect within the United States while the golf facility is in Phase 1 or 2.
• Playing a round at a facility where flagsticks do not meet the Equipment Rules are not normally acceptable for handicap purposes, and use of such flagsticks once the facility has transitioned to Phase 3 will mean that all rounds played on a course using such flagsticks will not be valid for handicap purposes.

[Socrates]

It's a good thing I play for fun. 

The don't touch the flagstick rule is dumb.  By that measure we shouldn't be able to touch a door and therefore would be trapped in or out of most buildings, never to be seen again.

 

Anyway, too many variables in the size of the foam, the depth of the foam, the depth of a plastic cover, the width of the flagstick with some sort of lifting device on it, to have any realistic expectation of using the Rules to decide if it went in or not. 

 

Had one today that 100 out of 100 times would have gone in, but yet didn't with the noodle and the thick flagstick.  Counted it as in for a birdie.  The earth didn't rupture and swallow me up. Nor did the heavens hurl a lightning bolt at me.  So, I think I'm good with the 3 on my scorecard.

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

9 hours ago, denkea said:

If you don't like the flagstick in just take it out.  I would have a hard time believing that any course has a mandatory declaration of NOT touching the flagstick. Even if they did, who would be noticing?  

Lol, well believe it. They ask that you don’t remove or touch the flag stick. If that’s the case. I do as they say or ask. Don’t want to make things complicated. Last thing a I need is a Karen and a Darren situation on a course. As of late, some course are allowing people to touch and remove flag sticks. While other courses are still not allowing anyone to touch or remove flag stick. I’m sure some courses are that way also where you are at. 

[Zski]

Back in April or May we had the pool noodles above the rim of the cup so the ball could not be holed.  In NY it was a state mandated thing  That the ball could not go in.  
 

I had a foam in one where it hit the noodle so it scored as a 1 per the Usga take on local rules but didn’t count as a true ace.  Thankfully I had one last fall and another a couple weeks ago

 

for me the biggest issue is lack of rakes in traps.  Our traps are basically unplayable as the sand is super firm

Edited August 19, 2020 by Zski

[HatsForBats]

21 hours ago, denkea said:

If you don't like the flagstick in just take it out.  I would have a hard time believing that any course has a mandatory declaration of NOT touching the flag stick. Even if they did, who would be noticing?  

 

This past weekend I had to travel to a public course to avoid the rain in my area. Many of the courses I came across when trying to find a tee time had a declaration to not touch the Flagstick.

[SNIPERBBB]

I'm more worried about the goose crap than touching a flagstick. And the geese are bad right now. They got their flight feathers now so they'll be gone but it smells like a giant urinal around the ponds right now and the greens get plastered.

[denkea]

OK.  So some courses have "declarations" or "rules" that say don't touch the flagstick.  Do these courses also have Flag police to enforce their suggestions?  

 

IF you don't mind the flagstick in then it's a no brainer for not touching the stick.  But once you have several that would have gone in had it not been for the stick then you will be rethinking the 'no touch' debacle.  

 

BTW  when you get gas do you not touch the handle of the gas pump?  Doors?  

[sui generis]

12 minutes ago, denkea said:

OK.  So some courses have "declarations" or "rules" that say don't touch the flagstick.  Do these courses also have Flag police to enforce their suggestions?  

 

IF you don't mind the flagstick in then it's a no brainer for not touching the stick.  But once you have several that would have gone in had it not been for the stick then you will be rethinking the 'no touch' debacle.  

 

BTW  when you get gas do you not touch the handle of the gas pump?  Doors?  

 

"Flag police" are here:

 

Rule 1.2 Standards of Player Conduct
a. Conduct Expected of All Players, All players are expected to play in the spirit of the game by:

Acting with integrity – for example, by following the Rules, applying all penalties, and being honest in all aspects of play.

 

Many clubs and courses have taken large and small steps to protect the health and safety of members, players and employees. It doesn't seem too much to ask to abide by these temporary rules.

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

1 hour ago, denkea said:

OK.  So some courses have "declarations" or "rules" that say don't touch the flagstick.  Do these courses also have Flag police to enforce their suggestions?  

 

IF you don't mind the flagstick in then it's a no brainer for not touching the stick.  But once you have several that would have gone in had it not been for the stick then you will be rethinking the 'no touch' debacle.  

 

BTW  when you get gas do you not touch the handle of the gas pump?  Doors?  

Yes, I wear the gloves provided and pump gas. But clearly there are no rules stating you can’t touch the pump is there? Or you can’t touch the door handle is there? But there are rules that you can’t touch or remove the flag stick. Simple rules man. Super easy to follow and abide by. 

[b.helts]

This is from the tournament I’ll be playing in this weekend. Obviously I recognize that it’s not a weekend round with your buddies but they are serious about the flagstick. 
 

Code of Conduct-Flagstick
• The flagstick must not be removed or deliberately touched by hand during the round, including with a gloved hand or a towel wrapped around the flagstick. Any player who deliberately ignores this code of conduct policy will be considered guilty of Serious Misconduct (see Rule 1.2b), the penalty for which is Disqualification.

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, denkea said:

OK.  So some courses have "declarations" or "rules" that say don't touch the flagstick.  Do these courses also have Flag police to enforce their suggestions?  

 

IF you don't mind the flagstick in then it's a no brainer for not touching the stick.  But once you have several that would have gone in had it not been for the stick then you will be rethinking the 'no touch' debacle.  

 

BTW  when you get gas do you not touch the handle of the gas pump?  Doors?  

 

[Krt22]

I've been playing ~3 rounds per week since May and I confidently say now that there are very few putts that wouldn't have dropped otherwise unless the foam is like 1/2" below the surface. If you are banging it off the stick and it doesnt go in, well those likely would not have stayed in with an empty cup either.