The death of Arccos and ShotScope

[pnd4pnd]

For reference, I have arccos and have returned my shotscope V3 after trying it for a few weeks. This weekend, I tried the new V1 Game. It doesn't use any sensors, just picks up sound. It also has an apple watch interface as well. Bottom line, this app has huge potential. While it doesn't work perfectly, it worked damn well for a fairly new product. Editing was easier than both Arccos and Shotscope and I found I had to do less editing with V1 than the others. It uses AI technology to figure out where your shots were, and although it doesnt always get it right, its close enough that with a few iterations I believe this will be better than either of the other two. I've given them several suggestions and they are very responsive to ideas, unlike the other two. The fact you don't have to use sensors on the clubs is what i believe will kill the other two. It will only get better as they start to use the sensors in the apple watch which they don't do yet. Happy to answer any questions, I have 3 rounds under my belt so far! And no, I don't work for them... I just think the app is really good given how early it is - i've used them all!

Edited August 17, 2020 by pnd4pnd

[BigBlue7]

FORE from Foresight has a similar approach, but I have not used it.

Do you have to remember what clubs you hit and then edit them into the round afterwards?

[pnd4pnd]

You can enter them every hole very easily or go back at the end of the round and do it. They have plans to use AI to figure it out from your distances and put it in for you. I have also made suggestions on how you could do it from the watch.

[BigBlue7]

Manually adding club selection from phone/watch seems like a much worse option than tags on the clubs.  I want any shot/performance tracking to be as minimally invasive as possible

Edited August 17, 2020 by jlukes

[North Butte]

Can you not remember what clubs you hit after the round? 

I find V1 Game to be as minimally invasive as possible but that's because I enter literally everything in the evening after I get home, I don't do anything during the round. In fact my phone stays in my golf bag.

[pnd4pnd]

Just now, jlukes said:

Manually adding club selection from phone/watch seems like a much worse option than tags on the clubs

Not when shots are missed or in the case of shotscope are wrong. I've had several arccos tags die or fall off.... shotscope tags are flat and don't sit on the butt of the club right. Personal preference of course.

[pnd4pnd]

Just now, North Butte said:

Can you not remember what clubs you hit after the round? 

I find V1 Game to be as minimally invasive as possible but that's because I enter literally everything in the evening after I get home, I don't do anything during the round. In fact my phone stays in my golf bag.

Easily remember what club i hit for the round that day. Seeing the picture of the hole makes it easier.

[North Butte]

I think those of us for whom V1 Game is more appealing than Arccos/ShotScope are a pretty small niche. I can easily remember every shot I hit and what club I used so there's no real benefit to me for an automatic system to record that on the course. And I am very, very unwilling to put up with a phone in pocket or sensors on the clubs. And finally, I am "niche" around here (GolfWRX) at least with little interest in the club stats, I'm all about the game analytics.

 

So for me, yeah V1 Game is ideal. They're still working a few bugs out and I'd like more drill-down in the stats but it's the only realistic option for my "niche" preferences. The AI thing uses the GPS breadcrumbs to give me a solid starting point for what happened during the round. And the editing of what's not captured flows pretty easily. 

[fawley]

This sounds awesome.  I hadn't heard of it before, but it sounds like exactly what I would want a system like this to be.

I'm interested in this type of data, and I tried the Arccos system but returned it after 1 round.  The data was great, but the tags on the end of the club bothered me - not so much the obtrusiveness of the tags themselves, but the change in the balance of the club.  I would have bet I wouldn't notice, but I did, and I didn't like the way it felt.

I generally can remember every shot I hit during a round, so if this works approximately as advertised, it will be great for what I need.

[CFAnPEI]

Hard to say if any one product will die out. 

I'm a fan of the Arccos site, dashboard, data layout and now SGA.

I'm a fan of Garmin watches with shot detection.

 

 

Not a fan of sensors and having to buy hardware, batteries and hoping it works, continues to work when software is updated.

And really not a fan of the Garmin Dashboard. Feels like a website from the 90s.

 

Perfect scenario for me.

Garmin watch, shot detection, let me edit putts in watch or after on site. No sensors.

Arccos dashboard/website OR Fore dashboard are great examples of how golf data should be presented. Hope Garmin learns something.

 

For now, Fore App on my phone and in my pocket. Best combination of data collection and presentation.

 

 

[Z1ggy16]

How does it know what club you hit though without sensors? The biggest draw to Arccos is that is has the Smart Caddie, which based on your statistical data on each club, will essentially tell you what club to pull for any given shot. It also has the best sg18 data right now, but given enough time... any GPS app can develop that capability. The biggest draw to Arccos is the ability to get you "real" distances on a GPS which accounts for wind and slope, plus telling you the statistically best club to use.

 

I haven't used or seen this V1 Game app yet, but I think Arccos will be working it's way toward making the sensors much smaller, more in line with the size and weight of Shot Scope. They already released the Shot Link which lets users remove the phone aspect which I think for some golfers, was a big draw back of Arccos. If this V1 thing only uses microphone, then I would assume it's only going to be used by players who don't mind a phone in their pocket all the time.

On 8/17/2020 at 4:20 PM, pnd4pnd said:

For reference, I have arccos and have returned my shotscope V3 after trying it for a few weeks. This weekend, I tried the new V1 Game. It doesn't use any sensors, just picks up sound. It also has an apple watch interface as well. Bottom line, this app has huge potential. While it doesn't work perfectly, it worked damn well for a fairly new product. Editing was easier than both Arccos and Shotscope and I found I had to do less editing with V1 than the others. It uses AI technology to figure out where your shots were, and although it doesnt always get it right, its close enough that with a few iterations I believe this will be better than either of the other two. I've given them several suggestions and they are very responsive to ideas, unlike the other two. The fact you don't have to use sensors on the clubs is what i believe will kill the other two. It will only get better as they start to use the sensors in the apple watch which they don't do yet. Happy to answer any questions, I have 3 rounds under my belt so far! And no, I don't work for them... I just think the app is really good given how early it is - i've used them all!

 

[North Butte]

I may not understand V1 Game completely but I've been using it for a couple months. I do not think it uses the microphone at all. When I installed the iPhone app and ran it for the first time it asked for permission to use my location (GPS) but did not ask for microphone permission (which Arccos does). And I run it completely with the phone in a deep pocket of my golf bag, on my push cart so it can't hear anything in there even if it listens to the microphone.

 

When I use it, there's a trail of GPS breadcrumbs which tracks my route around the course. The "AI" shot detection feature uses those breadcrumbs and looks at where I paused and for how long. At home after the round, I see the breadcrumb trail and the app puts little + sign marks everywhere I paused and it thought I hit a shot. I can tell it my score and number of putts on each hole and it will then make a guess about which + signs were real shots. Or I can tap the ones that correspond to shots and it will ignore the others. Or I can enter shots manually.

 

Now mayb there's some additional feature kicks in if the phone is in your pocket, I don't know. But I'm not aware of any microphone usage.

[Skydiver22]

Been using Arccos for three years now and have never had a problem outside of a tap in putts which are usually rushed attempts and the sensor didn't pick up a pause first.  I now have the link so my phone stays in the cart, and Monday they dropped the strokes gain AI into the dashboard... 

[Z1ggy16]

3 minutes ago, North Butte said:

I may not understand V1 Game completely but I've been using it for a couple months. I do not think it uses the microphone at all. When I installed the iPhone app and ran it for the first time it asked for permission to use my location (GPS) but did not ask for microphone permission (which Arccos does). And I run it completely with the phone in a deep pocket of my golf bag, on my push cart so it can't hear anything in there even if it listens to the microphone.

 

When I use it, there's a trail of GPS breadcrumbs which tracks my route around the course. The "AI" shot detection feature uses those breadcrumbs and looks at where I paused and for how long. At home after the round, I see the breadcrumb trail and the app puts little + sign marks everywhere I paused and it thought I hit a shot. I can tell it my score and number of putts on each hole and it will then make a guess about which + signs were real shots. Or I can tap the ones that correspond to shots and it will ignore the others. Or I can enter shots manually.

 

Now mayb there's some additional feature kicks in if the phone is in your pocket, I don't know. But I'm not aware of any microphone usage.

This sounds like like how 18birdies does it, but only with your input after the round. 18birdies uses GPS and then right before your shot, you must input into your phone which club you are hitting (I'm referring to the "pro" version of the app which gives you all the stats and whatnot). I would get so annoyed with having to go back in and tell the app which shots are real vs not, seeing as when you play in 4somes, you stop all the time during your round to allow others to hit while you may not be at your ball and so on. I can't imagine AI can guess correctly often enough for me to trust it... but who knows.

 

This app doesn't sound like an upgrade from Arccos, Shot Scope or anything else to me though. Arccos is nearly hands free and requires pretty much 0 interaction during the round, and minimal action after the round because every club has a sensor, so it can even guess where the pin is located (uses your putter sensor + GPS). I always go back in and make sure that is correct because it does directly impact SG18 but it's usually very close if not correct every single time. Only need to edit your rounds to add penalties, if applicable.

[North Butte]

It's only an "upgrade" for those of us (a very small niche) who are unwilling to have gadgets attached to our clubs and/or phone in hand during a round. And who are already recalling every shot without needing a device to do it for us.

 

Honestly if Arccos would let me go to their web dashboard, start a new round and just point-and-click every shot the evening after I play I wouldn't use anything else. Their stats and charting is better sorted than any of the others (far better than V1 Game) and their dashboard editing can be done with keyboard and mouse which is far less fiddly than touchscreen.

 

That's why I first downloaded V1 Game. It will let you create a round entirely after playing and enter everything from memory. I ended up letting it record my GPS trail because that helps me be more accurate with exactly where I hit certain shots. But I can happily use V1 Game without having their AI gusss the shot locations.

 

Wonder if I could talk Arccos into a no-sensor subscription to their Dashboard? Although $99/year would be pretty steep.

[vietnameeh]

no issues with my Shotscope (I am on V2 still though). If it misses a shot you can easily add it in at the end of the day. You can actually manually enter most of your shots if you really wanted to.

 

I don't think there is one system that has it perfect yet. Once shotscope formulates it's "strokes gained" formula. I will be pretty happy. 

[Myherobobhope]

I've been using the S62 watch all season, and the only thing it doesn't do well is putting... You can add accessories to tag clubs or input club selection as you go, but the GPS into the phone tracking is awesome... It also replaced my laser rangefinder for the better... Instead of focusing on the pin for yardage, I can just look at front, middle and back and make smarter choices (I know that this is easily done with a rangefinder, I just get "fixed" on the pin more easily when I have to scope it before I hit the ball).

 

It's been an amazing way to keep track of stats, and has helped my game a huge amount... Honestly, finding a good way to track your own rounds in a consistent way is always beneficial. People use different methods, but if it helps you actually track statistics, it should help you improve your game. I like the S62 because I'm wearing it anyways and it takes minimal input at the end of each hole. 

[pnd4pnd]

I like V1 Game because it uses the apple watch I already have. no additional hardware needed and has all the strokes gained information.

[North Butte]

12 minutes ago, Myherobobhope said:

Honestly, finding a good way to track your own rounds in a consistent way is always beneficial. People use different methods, but if it helps you actually track statistics, it should help you improve your game. 

 

In terms of Strokes Gained, my game doesn't change much over time. My overall handicap moves up or down a couple strokes but the relative strength/weakness of the different aspects have been pretty constant for the nearly 20 years I've tracked things. 

 

What does seem to "evolve" over time is my miss tendencies. I used to have a two-way miss with the driver for many years but it's evolved into the push/block being by far my predominant miss. And conversely, I used to either be short with my approach shot or else push/fade/block/slice them or both. Over the past several years I've developed a tendency to OTT pull-hook the snot out of mid-irons fairly often. Very disturbing trend.

 

Funny how the shape of things change the Strokes Gained and scores remain pretty consistent. 

[Myherobobhope]

4 minutes ago, North Butte said:

 

In terms of Strokes Gained, my game doesn't change much over time. My overall handicap moves up or down a couple strokes but the relative strength/weakness of the different aspects have been pretty constant for the nearly 20 years I've tracked things. 

 

What does seem to "evolve" over time is my miss tendencies. I used to have a two-way miss with the driver for many years but it's evolved into the push/block being by far my predominant miss. And conversely, I used to either be short with my approach shot or else push/fade/block/slice them or both. Over the past several years I've developed a tendency to OTT pull-hook the snot out of mid-irons fairly often. Very disturbing trend.

 

Funny how the shape of things change the Strokes Gained and scores remain pretty consistent. 

 

That's interesting... I've gotten a ton of value out of identifying my weaknesses and shoring them up, but maybe I've never played to my full potential... My current goal is to drastically improve my putting... I always knew I was a bad putter, but it's gotten worse recently... I need to get down to 32 putts average, and I think that is very doable.

 

Overall, in my experience, most people have a floor and ceiling for golf based on their skills and amount of golf played... I decided if I was going to get truly better at golf, I needed to figure out my weakest parts of my game and focus on making long term improvements. I've probably spent more time on the practice green in the past 6 months than I had in my entire golfing career... and practicing with FOCUS. 

 

Fundamentally improving at golf is super challenging, and requires either tons of time to improve on everything or good focus (and good data) to improve in the places where there are the most strokes to be gained. I'm currently sidelined with injury, but it will be interesting to see if I can actually get my putting average down how my overall scores change, and what I need to improve next.

[CFAnPEI]

46 minutes ago, North Butte said:

 

 

Wonder if I could talk Arccos into a no-sensor subscription to their Dashboard? Although $99/year would be pretty steep.

Now that is something I would be interested in as well. App tracks my walk, go to dashboard, fill in my round.

I suspect they might not be so keen even at $99/yr as it might add data into their system that they don't trust.

[North Butte]

6 minutes ago, CFAnPEI said:

Now that is something I would be interested in as well. App tracks my walk, go to dashboard, fill in my round.

I suspect they might not be so keen even at $99/yr as it might add data into their system that they don't trust.

 

It's how I use V1 Game and they pretty clearly state that's one way it's intended to be used.

 

But their analytics at this point in time are about where Arccos was five years ago, or maybe not quite that complete even. I'm probably going to stick with it for a year and see if they flesh out the analytics a bit. For instance their approach shot proximity screens are fixed distance brackets (75-100, 100-125, 125-150, etc) instead of me being able to show proximity for an arbitrary range (like you can with the sliders on Arccos Dashboard stats). Lots of stuff like that makes it impossible to drill down much.

[TWW]

I have had no issues using Arccos Sensors/system with my Apple Watch for shot tracking. I start the round and only look at it for distances. At the end of the round I go into the dashboard and easily edit any holes I need to. I find it easier to do edits on a 25 inch monitor and with a mouse. Practice rounds where I play two balls confuses it a little, maybe 10% or 15% editing vers. 5% on a rounds with others and one ball. I have the sensors not the grips so no subscription. It is accurate enough on distances that I can select clubs well 80% of the time, having used the system long enough I know when to grab the laser if I am between clubs. I have tried the V1 Game and find the analytics to be subpar to Arccos. The Arccos analitics highlight things that I don't perceive when I am playing, like a couple of real good drives can make you feel one way but the data can bring you back to reality.  I am 2 years in using the system and expect to get 2 more years at least. Paid $180 so that is only $45 a year over 4 years and keeps going down.

 

[KParks]

The lack of knowing what club is a serious problem. 

 

Also, how does it differentiate between you and your playing partners if you are standing in proximity to them?

 

Arccos certainly has flaws but this doesn't seem like the answer to me. 

[DangerousDan]

I hope that Scott Fawcett (DECADE) develops or collaborates on something in this area.  He has an awesome data and research driven approach to golf and if he had in round data gathering and virtual caddie offerings I would be all over that.

 

If I could wave a magic wand, @TaylorMade Golf would strike a deal with him and put the R&D money into this, I would be 100% Taylormade, no doubt!

[North Butte]

21 minutes ago, KParks said:

The lack of knowing what club is a serious problem. 

 

Also, how does it differentiate between you and your playing partners if you are standing in proximity to them?

 

Arccos certainly has flaws but this doesn't seem like the answer to me. 

I am pretty sure OP is mistaken about the microphone, unless that's something specific to using it with the Apple Watch instead of a phone.

 

If you want a device to sense what club you're using, there's no magic or AI in the world that's going to do that without sensors attached to the clubs. Not with V1 Game, not with any other app. 

 

As I've used V1 Game, eventually I've stopped even bothering to enter what club I used. I'm not really interested in knowing about clubs, just about my game. I think that is more the focus of V1 Game. If your purpose includes advice about how far you hit clubs and so forth that's not a V1 Game thing. And if you want that advice during the round then as far as I can tell Arccos is as good as that gets currently.

[pnd4pnd]

I checked with them and it doesn't use the microphone. Trying to get more details.... but it works. 

[RSinSG]

2 hours ago, RockyMtnSwine said:

This doesn't sound like the death of anything

 

Agree with your assessment. I used the original GameGolf for years to where the tagging the club became a part of my PSR that I find myself still doing months after no longer using the system. I tried Arccos for a while and didn't like it and went back to GG. Then I got the ShotScope V3 and so far I am really liking it. The GPS distances on the watch are helpful and so far the post-round editing has been minimal. The stats are different than GG but equally helpful. V1 Game may be preferred by many but the others aren't going anywhere.

[mulliganman30]

On 8/17/2020 at 3:20 PM, pnd4pnd said:

For reference, I have arccos and have returned my shotscope V3 after trying it for a few weeks. This weekend, I tried the new V1 Game. It doesn't use any sensors, just picks up sound. It also has an apple watch interface as well. Bottom line, this app has huge potential. While it doesn't work perfectly, it worked damn well for a fairly new product. Editing was easier than both Arccos and Shotscope and I found I had to do less editing with V1 than the others. It uses AI technology to figure out where your shots were, and although it doesnt always get it right, its close enough that with a few iterations I believe this will be better than either of the other two. I've given them several suggestions and they are very responsive to ideas, unlike the other two. The fact you don't have to use sensors on the clubs is what i believe will kill the other two. It will only get better as they start to use the sensors in the apple watch which they don't do yet. Happy to answer any questions, I have 3 rounds under my belt so far! And no, I don't work for them... I just think the app is really good given how early it is - i've used them all!

Ive read some crazy things on wrx, but declaring this the end of both shotscope and arccos is right up there

[pnd4pnd]

2 hours ago, mulliganman30 said:

Ive read some crazy things on wrx, but declaring this the end of both shotscope and arccos is right up there

I'm saying that having tags will be a thing of the past as technology has newer and better solutions. for me that day has come.