KBS Tour 130X vs. Nippon Modus3 120X

[pepperdinepat]

Hi Guys, sadly in my area we have limited possibilities to test "exotic" shafts in x-stiff. 

 

I am switching Irons from the "original" TaylorMade P770 with KBS Tour 130X to the new P7MC. 

 

My current data (7i): 

90mph, high ball flight, 7000rpm. 170yds

 

I will switch to P7MC and would like to try the Nippon shaft but I will not have Trackman Data for that. I hit T100 with a Modus3 120 X and hit EXACTLY the ball flight I am looking for but I am a but concerned that the shaft would dial down my RPM too much. Any of you guys have experience with that? 

thanks in advance, I really appreciate your help, P

[Howard_Jones]

Thats strange, looking at the EI profile Modus 120X should be a higher launching and spinning shaft than KBS Tour 130 X, but thats not always how it works in the hands a of a player. For irons, launch and spin is connected, if launch went down, spin did too, and if launch went up, spin did too. Its a question of delivered loft at impact. If feel and dispersion is good, we should simply tweak static lofts to get ball flight right, its not really a shaft job. All consequences would be the same, if we add static loft (or reduce it), or a shaft does that, spin launch, bounce distance... everything change the same in both scenarios, so again, if weight, feel and dispersion is good, use lofts to get ball flight right, you CANT get the same launch but a different spin value by using a different shaft, that can only be done by changing the ball or club head.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Howard_Jones

[pepperdinepat]

The ball flight I am looking for is a little bit more penetrating (lower) and the Modus delivered just that. my concern is that I trade the lower flight with 1500 RPM and I feel like I should stay above 6.000 with my 7. I see team mates of mine hitting their 7 15 yards past me but cant get it to stop with 4.500 spin... 

[Howard_Jones]

2 hours ago, pepperdinepat said:

The ball flight I am looking for is a little bit more penetrating (lower) and the Modus delivered just that. my concern is that I trade the lower flight with 1500 RPM and I feel like I should stay above 6.000 with my 7. I see team mates of mine hitting their 7 15 yards past me but cant get it to stop with 4.500 spin... 

At 80 mph, 1 of loft is 208 rpm, 90 mph is 12.5% higher, so spin will be 12.5% higher or 234 rpm pr degree of loft...
Ball flight is average 50% of loft, so you want get close to a reduction of 1500 rpm who is 6.4* lower loft at impact or 3.2* lower flight....i never saw that from "X flex to X flex"

Edited August 18, 2020 by Howard_Jones

[Howard_Jones]

@pepperdinepat

This is really simple stuff, but until the forum allows upload of photos, i will have to use links to the outside to explain it since it seems kind of "greek" to you.
Follow this link to Trackmans PGA average numbers, they are as average a tad higher on club speed than you are, but for the example i makes no difference.

https://blog.trackmangolf.com/trackman-average-tour-stats/

Their #7 iron is average 7097 spin, launch is 16.3*
Their #6 iron who in average has 4 less of loft, has a average spin of 6231 and launch of 14.1
4* of loft changed spin with 866 rpm and launch with 2.2*
(their average spin changed with 216 rpm for each 1* of loft vs my numbers 234...on THIS compare from #7 to #6)

Your worries is in the area of the double, but its no reason for that, we cant reduce launch and spin that much using the same head and ball by a shaft change alone. The shaft might deliver 2* less of dynamic loft as the most, but your access to the ball might change due to both weight, balance and profile, but i would be amazed if we saw a total difference to dynamic loft of as much as 4* who would be equal to "1 club longer or shorter", so your changes IS below 1000 on spin, and change to launch within 2* or "1 club longer" on all datas. Now compare the roll out you got as difference from your #7 to your #6 as it was with KBS.....

[pepperdinepat]

Jebus, I really learned a lot right now. thanks. since i like the feel and flight of the shaft, I will order "blind" but still with a lot of confidence. I never had low spin issues so bring it on, golf gods ?

 

What I will test before ordering is, whether I will play the new 770 from 6i or 5i. 

 

thanks Howard! 

[nikeblades00]

Interesting stuff. Thanks I learned alot.

 

So what shaft are you going to go with? Seems like you cant go wrong with the KBS but the modus could potentially be better. End of the day I think you will be happy with either.

[Red4282]

Also needs to be noted the nippon 120x is a 120 gram shaft, and the Kbs tour 130x is 130 grams, quite a big jump in weight. Could be good or bad, just be mindful.

when i was in the kbs tour 130x, i had issues with balooning. I do think ultimately think the nippon 120 will launch in spin a touch lower for most people, but not always. 

[pepperdinepat]

I am leaning towards the modus3 120X. I sometimes hit my irons stupid high and in the end I get new ones because the current setup is not delivering. I think a lower launch/flight could provide more consistent results. If I lose some spin I can still switch to a TP5 instead of the tp5x. Giving up 3 yards off the tee (due to higher spin) and have better iron performance is a worthwhile tradeoff in my books. 

[Hack Daddy]

I'm currently gaming modus 130X.

 

Tried 105 and 120. The best thing about the 130 is the weight keeps me in check during the tournament jitters. Lighter shafts were more susceptible to nerves, for ME. 

[Hack Daddy]

Also you're going to want to throw some tip weights in there if your going blade or MB heads.

[pepperdinepat]

first, I have to admit that I dont know what a tip weight is. I will order them in D4 and usually TaylorMade Custom does a pretty outstanding job in delivering. 

second, the modus3 130 is not a custom option 

 

I will combo the P7MC from P to 6 and probably use the new P770 in 4&5 (as TM calls it „forgiveness level 2“). But that is subject to trackman data that i will get (but not with my shaft option). 

[Howard_Jones]

51 minutes ago, pepperdinepat said:

first, I have to admit that I dont know what a tip weight is. I will order them in D4 and usually TaylorMade Custom does a pretty outstanding job in delivering. 

second, the modus3 130 is not a custom option 

 

I will combo the P7MC from P to 6 and probably use the new P770 in 4&5 (as TM calls it „forgiveness level 2“). But that is subject to trackman data that i will get (but not with my shaft option). 

When  you oder a set like your plans is, Tip weights is not a concern for you. Its brass insert weights we use to equalize head weight tolerances from production or to raise SW value in general, so that concern is now for the OEM, not you. Its when we build our own clubs we have to do that job.  (no you dont have to tell this to the OEM, they know what to do based on your order for length and SW value)

[tbone18]

modus 130's are available for custom order.  go to taylormadegolf.com and go to custom shop for your order.  the 120's spin rate is very high at least for me.  130's are perfect. won't order a new set without them.

[pepperdinepat]

if anyone is interested I will share some data from yesterday‘s fitting session.  I had a really good ball striking day so I am pretty pleased with my findings: 

 

my old P770, kbs tour X, +1/2 inch: 

172yds, 7000 spin, descent 47, head 90,5, ball 120

 

P7MB, kbs tour 130 X (stock length) - I eliminated the blade since toe misses fell out of the sky like dead birds. 

167, 7700, 43, 89, 118

 

P7MC, kbs tour 130 X (stock length)

171, 7150, 45, 90, 119

 

new P770, kbs tour 130 X (stock length)

176, 6500, 46, 90, 120.5

 

P7MC, kbs tour 120 S +1/2 inch 

175, 7200, 47, 91, 120.5

 

new P770, kbs tour 120 S +1/2 inch

179, 6700, 47, 92, 123

 

I had some absolute rockets with the p770 and hit them up to 185 so I dont think TM eliminated the hot spot issue completely and that‘s my main concern with my combo choice (P770 from 6 or 5). The forgiveness and crisp feel of the P770 where a thing of beauty so 4&5 will definitely go in the bag. 

 

shaft: I felt good with the 120S but shot dispersion was a little worse than with the 130X and I am still dreaming of the Nippon Modus3. Also shaft length played a role with clubhead speed I believe.  From the data I gathered and the feel I had hitting the T100 with the Modus3 120X I feel like I should make a shaft change, especially since my current iron play is not my strength anyway and a change could be something positive. 

[Hack Daddy]

Are the lofts the same?

[pepperdinepat]

2 minutes ago, Hack Daddy said:

Are the lofts the same?

 

nope 

[hzrdusyellow]

1 hour ago, pepperdinepat said:

if anyone is interested I will share some data from yesterday‘s fitting session.  I had a really good ball striking day so I am pretty pleased with my findings: 

 

my old P770, kbs tour X, +1/2 inch: 

172yds, 7000 spin, descent 47, head 90,5, ball 120

 

P7MB, kbs tour 130 X (stock length) - I eliminated the blade since toe misses fell out of the sky like dead birds. 

167, 7700, 43, 89, 118

 

P7MC, kbs tour 130 X (stock length)

171, 7150, 45, 90, 119

 

new P770, kbs tour 130 X (stock length)

176, 6500, 46, 90, 120.5

 

P7MC, kbs tour 120 S +1/2 inch 

175, 7200, 47, 91, 120.5

 

new P770, kbs tour 120 S +1/2 inch

179, 6700, 47, 92, 123

 

I had some absolute rockets with the p770 and hit them up to 185 so I dont think TM eliminated the hot spot issue completely and that‘s my main concern with my combo choice (P770 from 6 or 5). The forgiveness and crisp feel of the P770 where a thing of beauty so 4&5 will definitely go in the bag. 

 

shaft: I felt good with the 120S but shot dispersion was a little worse than with the 130X and I am still dreaming of the Nippon Modus3. Also shaft length played a role with clubhead speed I believe.  From the data I gathered and the feel I had hitting the T100 with the Modus3 120X I feel like I should make a shaft change, especially since my current iron play is not my strength anyway and a change could be something positive. 

 

Thanks for sharing you fitting data. Apparently you have very good head speed/ball speed and ball striking. The Modus 120 s is much lighter than KBS 130X talking about 16 gram uncut weight difference here. Could you share how you feel between the two or you just don't really mind the weight difference and you focus more on the ball flight/spin etc. Could you also post your angle of attack for your 7 iron:)

[pepperdinepat]

Hi. sure.

attack angle is -4 and path is between -1-2. love the little cut but yesterday was damn straight.

Since I tested the kbs in 120S and 130X I could not tell a huge difference in feel due to weight. I could deliver both clubs well enough and so I just looked at the data and the softer one had a left long miss where I believe I felt the softer shaft. It‘s really hard to judge if you dont have all options. my Fitter/Coach has 20+ iron shafts but in X his options are naturally limited since he fits 80% in R... 

[Hack Daddy]

7 hours ago, pepperdinepat said:

Hi. sure.

attack angle is -4 and path is between -1-2. love the little cut but yesterday was damn straight.

Since I tested the kbs in 120S and 130X I could not tell a huge difference in feel due to weight. I could deliver both clubs well enough and so I just looked at the data and the softer one had a left long miss where I believe I felt the softer shaft. It‘s really hard to judge if you dont have all options. my Fitter/Coach has 20+ iron shafts but in X his options are naturally limited since he fits 80% in R... 

 

I used that metric as well. The 120 gave me a miss hard right (LH), and the 130 keeps them manageable. Like I said, I'm in the Modus 130X and I love them. I'm sure you'll be happy with whichever 130X you go with. 

[pepperdinepat]

the modus 130X is no custom option in Europe. I will try the 120X. my iron game is not my stronghold right now so there is little risk in making a change. 

I also chose to combo the 770 for 4&5. I am afraid of hot ones... 

[pepperdinepat]

@Howard_Jones

 

since I had a good ballstriking day I matched those numbers with my 7 iron quite precisely. Ball 120, launch 16-17, my attack was -4, spin was 7000, it went 170, but I couldnt get the ball to land steeper than 47. Would physics suggest, if all numbers are equal, the land angle must come out at 50 as well? is 3 degrees something to worry about? 

Fitting conditions where outdoor, of the mat, balls where TM Tour Preferred. 

thanks

Edited August 28, 2020 by pepperdinepat

[Howard_Jones]

35 minutes ago, pepperdinepat said:

@Howard_Jones

 

since I had a good ballstriking day I matched those numbers with my 7 iron quite precisely. Ball 120, launch 16-17, my attack was -4, spin was 7000, it went 170, but I couldnt get the ball to land steeper than 47. Would physics suggest, if all numbers are equal, the land angle must come out at 50 as well? is 3 degrees something to worry about? 

Fitting conditions where outdoor, of the mat, balls where TM Tour Preferred. 

thanks

We can never know for sure how this numbers change from mats to real turf or grass, since mats is different than turf. In general launch becomes higher and spin becomes lower from a mat, but they vary so much that without knowing the actual mat its all guesswork.

We need average about 150 rpm more spin to get 1* steeper descent angle (from my memory, i cant recall the exact number), so if we wanted to move it from 47* to 50* thats 450* rpm of spin, and thats lower as difference as we see from most mats, so i dont see any reason for you to worry.

Take them out to play and you will know...

Edited August 28, 2020 by Howard_Jones

[Stuart_G]

50 minutes ago, pepperdinepat said:

@Howard_Jones

 

since I had a good ballstriking day I matched those numbers with my 7 iron quite precisely. Ball 120, launch 16-17, my attack was -4, spin was 7000, it went 170, but I couldnt get the ball to land steeper than 47. Would physics suggest, if all numbers are equal, the land angle must come out at 50 as well? is 3 degrees something to worry about? 

Fitting conditions where outdoor, of the mat, balls where TM Tour Preferred. 

thanks

 

 

Was the fitting indoor or outdoor?   What type of ball was used?  What was the LM used? 

 

But given a fixed ball speed, launch angle, and backspin (not total spin),  the only other variables that will effect the landing angle are 1) the ball 2) the atmospheric conditions.  e.g. Temp, altitude, wind, etc.. 

 

If you're looking at total spin, then the amount of tilt in the spin axis (or amount of side spin) will reduce the backspin and therefore decrease the decent angle.

 

Well, if indoors or not using radar tracking outdoors, the accuracy of the ball flight model used by the simulator or LM will be a factor as well.  Some are just better than others

 

Also,  do you realize that those TM numbers are just tour averages, they are not any kind of ideal number or any kind of targets you should try to get too in a fitting.

 

 

 

 

The TM charts shows averages, they are not target numbers.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Stuart_G

[Howard_Jones]

he gave the info, except for what LM used......"Fitting conditions where outdoor, of the mat, balls where TM Tour Preferred. "

[pepperdinepat]

I thought the mat is a factor, but when I produce the numbers, it's just curious that the math doesnt add up. I hit the P7MB with almost 8.000 Spin and still didnt get the lang angle to 50deg. Granted, I didnt produce the ball speed with the blades... shame on me. 

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, pepperdinepat said:

I thought the mat is a factor, but when I produce the numbers, it's just curious that the math doesnt add up. I hit the P7MB with almost 8.000 Spin and still didnt get the lang angle to 50deg. Granted, I didnt produce the ball speed with the blades... shame on me. 

 

That's not the way averages work.  They are just not really supposed to add up the way you are thinking they should.   Think of the columns being averaged separately.  And the fact that the input data wasn't normalized for conditions (wind, temp, altitude, etc..)  can potentially skew things even more.  So the resulting numbers for a given club (each row) don't really represent a single shot.  Statistically it should be close or in the ball park for a realistic flight for some average of the conditions.  But don't expect it to be exact.

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by Stuart_G

[Howard_Jones]

Stuart is spot on, the average is a non existing shot. Think of the difference there migth be between club heads. One head migth launch higher but with lower spin that another, Even if impact and loft at impact was the same. We have a rather large "window" we can vary up and down in before we see differences to carry and roll that matters

[pepperdinepat]

well, I cant wait to try them out, but what I heard from the Rep: the 13.000 sets planned for Europe for the launch of the new P-series were sold out in 1 week... good for TM, bad for me. 

[tyorke1]

trouble with the trackman chart is what was the loft of the 5 iron or 8 iron. Also is there a difference from forged to cast in terms of spin and launch. Since most forged have thinner bottoms I presume they will launch slightly lower. I had ap3's for a bit and they spin so low. Now I have ap2's with nippons and I am hoping alot more spin. great topic . really enjoy reading from Howard.